Break in 264 nailhead

[Roadmaster75]

Bill,

Shouldn't be any different procedure to set your MSD up than a stock one...

As our colleagues here have all suggested ...

Once you know firing order, rotation direction of the distributor,

and where Number One is at you should be real close when you drop it in.

Also, the MSDs come with 3 sets of springs for the centrifugal advance set up.

You just consult the chart for your driving type & install them as directed.

I still have the stock set up in my 58 Roadmaster, but if it ever goes "hinky" on me

I wouldn't hesitate to put the 8524 in.

mike

[Guest btate]

thanks Mike, I went ahead and ordered the 8524 last night, just tired of car not running

[old-tank]

thanks Mike, I went ahead and ordered the 8524 last night, just tired of car not running

Sounds like a reasonable choice. Let us know how it works. One thing to watch for that I have seen on aftermarket distributors: with the rotor pointed like the old one, be sure the tang at the bottom that engages the oil pump is oriented the same....if not there may be a problem with no oil pressure.

Willie

[Guest btate]

Willie, I just sent you four or five pictures. John, it miked .54"

[old-tank]

Willie, I just sent you four or five pictures. John, it miked .54"

Mine measured 0.554. Pictures that were clear showed interference damage as previously described.

I usually tell people to keep the old distributor as an emergency spare, but in this case scrap it!

Willie

[Guest btate]

Received my MSD 8524 this afternoon and I thought it was already set up to stick it in, but to my surprise it comes with two extra sets of springs color coded and four color coded bushings. As most of you know I do not know that much about cars and I am finding words I am not familial with. Does anyone already know which spring and bushings I need to set it up with. I just changed the oil (Royal Purple) and manual states not to use synethic. Wow! I did not know what I was getting into. Any help appreciated. I got to leave Thrusday for the NSRA show in Knoxville. 130 miles from my house.

[Guest btate]

The instructions for the Msd 8524 distributor wants to know if the crankshaft degrees are 28, 25, 21, or 18 . I do not have a clue what my 264ci nailhead has. The distributor is shipped with blue (21 degree) bushing already installed. The crankshaft degree determines which bushings I use. The bushing controls the advance stop. Another question listed in the instructions is, if advance timing or retard timing. The springs in the distributor as shipped is the two heavy duty silver springs as these springs give the slowest advance curve possible. The chart shows at 4000rpm the degrees is 21. Folks, I have no idea what I am doing here!!!! Bill

[Roadmaster75]

Bill

Sent you a PM with my email and phone. But,

In a nutshell, use the lightest springs (light silver).

Keep the blue bushing in for now. Get the car running on this set up. You can tweak it if necessary

by changing to the silver or black bushings later; but I think this will work well to get the car running and

timed properly. Change the springs BEFORE you install the distributor...! Hard to do it while in the car.

BTW, Fellas,

I can't figure out how to attach a PDF for you guys watching this thread,

but if you go to MSD you can download the instructions and charts that guide you on the advance curve set up.

The unit uses various spring rates and bushings to determine what RPM you get total advance and where it starts to kick in.

mike

[Guest btate]

Mike, I can start there and see how it runs. I just now realized that tomorrow I will have to buy new plug wires since the distributor has spark plug terminal connectors. Mike, there's two O' rings in the bag with parts but instruction do not make mention where they are used. Do you know?

[Roadmaster75]

I think one of them goes on the shaft to seal out any oil... I think the other is a spare.

M

[Guest btate]

Not any good news today!! Finally found plugs wire after checking with Honest Charlie, Autozone , Advance Auto, O Reilly's, etc. Installed the new MSD HEI distributor today and the intake manifold vacuum test gauge still swinging wildly. The car is now missing worse. We had to quit due to the newly rebuilt carburator is now spraying gas at the top of the carb and gas is pooling up on a flat spot on the carb. For weeks I kept telling everyone there's gas staining the newly powder coated intake manifold but no one thought much of it, since it was such a small amount. I paid the fellow $280. For the carb re build and he used the deluxe kit. I called him on his cell and been disconnected and no answer on land line. I am through listening to others recommend how great someone is in doing car work. I will do my own research on someone that I may consider. At this stage, if I am going to still try and go to the NSRA show in Knoxville. I know one of the best mechanic in town but he is bad about sticking a new whatever on the car at my expense. Example, I am sure he would replace the plugs and say I installed a hotter plug etc. It is risky to leave my car at his place due to him having so much business. My last classic car he scratch it but I finally got the scratches out with the buffer. I really do not like to leave the car anywhere. I am about ready to take a year break and come back to it next year. If I have an intake valve not sealing off, I wonder how that is fixed.I came so close going the Jay Leno route with an LS engine it not funny. I believe when you rebuild 60 year old parts, it is risky. Wipers still do not work. I just going to buy electric wiper.

[Roadmaster75]

Bill

Sent you a private email regarding a potential solution; assuming

a positive outcome on troubleshooting the valve train.

Keep the faith...!

mike

[Guest btate]

A little better news! I decided to tackle the carburetor and try to fix the gas leak. I never tried to fix a carb. It like I told my wife one year, that I would cook Christmas dinner and she said "you can't cook" I told her if I can read and write I can cook. So I proceeded to goggle " best pork chops, better fried chicken and best dinner rolls. It took me two days to gather up the ingredients, but the whole family loved these dishes and now I have to cook every Christmas. So, with the service manual I followed it to the tee and found floats out of adjustment and travel of needle to far and now I know the inside of carb looks very good. I did start up the car and manifold pressure is still causing the needle to fluctuate all over the place. I re check timing and it is set at 7 degrees. First thing Monday I will pull compressed air over to the area the car is in and do a leak down test, also compression test. Since the carb is not leaking gas maybe I could still drive the car 130 miles to the show Thursday. I do not know if an intake valve leaking , it will do further harm if I drive it.

[Aaron65]

How to Use and Interpret a Vacuum Gauge

Which one of these does the vacuum gauge look like?

[Guest btate]

Aaron, I do not see a comparison. Am I missing something?

[TexasJohn55]

Bill, I think what Aaron is asking is what "scenario" or scenarios from the link best describe what you are seeing with your guage on your engine. Your guage may be configured differently in appearance but still read from 0-30" Hg. If your locate a low cylinder then leak down should guide to the problem according to where you hear the hissing, ie: carburetor exhaust pipe or oil filler. Then you will know which valve cover or covers to remove and which rockers to check. If it is a mismatch lifter/pushtube problem, then you can try backing suspect rocker (loosen) 1/2 turn and recheck. Willie can jump in here on that issue. WHY IS YOUR ENGINE BUILDER NOT DOING THIS???? You really don't need to be fretting about something he should fix, it is hard on nerves and blood pressure. I do understand your anxiety about getting to the car shows. I am impressed that a guy who claims not to be a mechanic is doing so well, I just suspect that like myself you are a little short on patience at times. HANG IN THERE! TexasJohn

[Guest btate]

I will look at my gauge tomorrow and Identify it. I didn't want to call my engine builder in until I new for sure there was a serious problem. I thought it is not his fault if the distributor is worn out but he should have noticed how loose the rotor button was, when he installed it. Tomorrow I will know more about the engine after the leak down and compression test. I already called my car builder and he was going to call the engine builder and let him know. If a valve problem, I think the head has to come off and I told my car builder that yesterday and I wanted him down Tuesday. Engine builder place is 30 miles from me. The erratic behavior of the gauge, from what I can goggle, it may be the valve guides. I hope is is something simple rather than a valve problem. If it is a valve problem, would it do further damage to drive it 260 miles round trip?

[old-tank]

Bill

I hope you don't cook after messing with the carb

Let's get the results of the compression test then talk about all the "what if's"

Willie

[Guest btate]

Well, it been a long day. I thought we could do the leak down and combustion test within 2 hours but it took all day and I won't get into that story. The first test was the leak din after I drove the car and got it warm. Removed all plugs. Use the Harbor Freight dual gauge that pumps only15 psi in the cylinder and then the second gauge reads per cent loss. Number 1 cylinder was 18 per cent loss of air and had a 120 compression, 3 was 15 per cent loss and 130 compression, 5 had 15 loss, and 95 compression, 5 was 15 loss and 95 comp. 7 was 12 loss, and 99 comp, 2 was 15 loss and 130 comp, 4 was 18 loss, and 95 comp, 6 was 20 loss, and 95 comp. 8 was 15 loss and 90 comp. Accordling to the chart up to 20 per cent is ok for leak test. The low compression may be due to having only 300 miles and rings not seated. I used the idle bleed screws one at a time and used the manifold vacuum to set the best vacuum pressure. I did both independ. I repeated the intake vacuum test and once I idle up to 700 rpm , the needle only dad a one number swing. The chart used tp dx the problem said idle to test manifold vacuum should be 800 to 1200. I then used 1000rpm and moved distributor to increase the vacuum up to about 17 and somewhat steady. I also checked timed with light and it was about 7 to 8 tdc I hope I said all this clearly. Anyway I drove car home today and it ran the best yet. Idles great. I believe a few more miles on it and will do much better. I now have to change the vacuum wiper motor to an electric and got to do it by Wednesday. I give up on the vacuum wiper. Since this show is NSRA it must go thru their safely inspection or they will not judge it.

[old-tank]

Bill

Great news! I think you have it sorted out, so now all you have to do is DRIVE IT (like you stole it)! And the best part you had the main hand in fixing it.

Willie

[Guest btate]

Thanks Willie and to all who stuck with me thru all this. Bill

[TexasJohn55]

Bill, I'm not suggesting that this saga is not over but you have 3 good numbers out of 8 on compression but the leakdown numbers don't correspond to the compression numbers. Totally confusing. DOES YOUR COMPRESSION TESTER HAVE A RUBBER TIP THAT HAS TO BE HELD FIRMLY IN THE PLUG HOLE OR DOES IT SCREW INTO THE PLUG HOLE?

[TexasJohn55]

Bill, I forget to ask if you happened to hear any air hissing anywhere. I would guess not with only 15 psi, you would probably have to use continous supply at a higher pressure. John

[Aaron65]

I'm thinking he might mean 115???

[Guest btate]

John, I purchased a new compression gauge and it did screw in. I did hear hissing thru oil breather on the leak down test and that should have been because of rings not seated. we would get hissing thru the carb but that would be when we were not at top dead center. The leak down we did 40# direct into cylinder on about 4 cylinders but got hissing thru the oil breather not carb. the Harbor Freight system is set up with 15 psi. i didn't like it either and sent out someone to go all over town to get a conventional gauge but none were in sight.The HF was hard to use and could not swear it was correct. I actually bought two because I didnt think the first one was working, due to their instructions not correct. been a lot of complains via goggle. I had four people give it a try and they all had trouble. it gives you percentage of leakage and if it did not leak over 20% the chart showed OK. I may do the test again once I get back from Knowville. I will drive the car home again today and see if it runs as good as yesterday. I only have 13 vacuum at the wiper and I understand I need about 16 or 17. Once I get to the show grounds I have to go thru safety inspections and I may get rejected from being judged. i more interested in getting my car right than winning anything. thanks Bill

[TexasJohn55]

Thanks Bill, To quote another illustrious member, DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT! , and good luck at the car shows! TexasJohn

[Guest btate]

Bad news! This morning my wife and I headed to Knoxville NSRA show. We made it about 30 miles and I pulled over due to high temp got out and checked the temp and it was 250 degrees and as I hit the brakes to stop I noticed the brake pad was hard as could be. I noticed the wheels were smoking. I tossed some cold was I had in the truck and got a lot of steam. Brakes were locked up. I let cool for a while and called my car builder and he said try to start and it turn over but would not start. He said when engine get hot gas will recede back and to pump the pedal several times and then try to stop. I did and it caught on fire. I raced for the fire eqi and put the fire out. I would say I am "King of the roll backs" once we got back to the office with the car , the brakes had cooled off and was working. Still the car wouldn't start and someone noticed the choke was hanging up and fixing that , it started. I was driving like no tomorrow. I got my 49' Olds club coupe and headed out to Knoxville and we are here now, but I have shown it so many times it sorta took the excitement out somewhat. We will make the best of it, one way or another. I am going to try to find a real brake drum repair place to see what is wrong with the brakes.

[avgwarhawk]

Sounds like the brakes are over tightened and dragging the drums or not fully released when the parking brake pedal is in the off position. Sorry to hear of the ills of the carb. Carbs can be fickle. Question on the overheat, new pump installed when rebuilding? If so, were the spinning fins that move the water/antifreeze the same as the old pump?

Edited May 3, 2013 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[buick5563]

Dragging brakes will make a car overheat.

[old-tank]

Dragging brakes will make a car overheat.

Correct. As for as the why are they dragging...emergency brake cable too tight (rears only), master cylinder is is not releasing pressure (adjustment or internal problems ---affects front and rear), lining material on shoes swells when hot. With brakes that hot the pedal will be very high and hard. Your are correct in getting a different set of eyes to look it over.

Willie

[Guest btate]

I try to talk with all the mechanics I can, at the show and the poll seems to point to the master cylinder rod not adjusted correct and improper return of fluid, especially since I believe it is all the wheels. I personally check the rear emergency brake cables and are about correct looseness. I think the overheat is from the brakes.

[TexasJohn55]

Correct. As for as the why are they dragging...emergency brake cable too tight (rears only), master cylinder is is not releasing pressure (adjustment or internal problems ---affects front and rear), lining material on shoes swells when hot. With brakes that hot the pedal will be very high and hard. Your are correct in getting a different set of eyes to look it over.

Willie

If your master cylinder is original it is a single chamber unit, all 4 wheels affected, I don't recall if you have posted but are all rubber hoses in brake system new? There is one for each side front and one in the rear. My originals were swollen so bad I couldn't bleed them. Old hoses will swell shut and sometimes act as checkvalves, not allowing all pressure to bleed back. You may notice this as uneven braking or pulling. Master cylinder rod not returning is the most likely though. After rebuilding my master and booster unit and letting car sit a couple years, I noticed a "groaning" noise in brake pedal and slow to return to top. The input shaft that is covered with rubber boot was dry. I simply wiped some grease on it and after 2 or 3 pedal cycles it was nice and free, no noise and returned properly. You know, we never did diagnose your overheating issue that started this thread. I assume that you noticed if your electric fan was running when you pulled over after getting hot. Maybe we can tackle that problem when you find your brake problem. TexasJohn

[Guest btate]

John, my master cylinder was rebuilt. All hose's are new, new s/s main lines, actually the whole system is new. When I pulled over, Seemed the car was going to stop anyway. It was a long grade uphill and I was barely moving. The brakes were locking up. I did leave the motor running and electric fans was running. The a/c was also on and I turned it off and helped some. I finally turned engine off. I then turned the ignition on and the fan ran. The radiator then really cooled off quick. The wheels will scrub the shoes slightly but not all the way around. In the 360 degrees, I would say the shoes scrub the drums about 25 per cent of the 360. Just a light touch.

[TexasJohn55]

You will have to jack her up and crawl under to check that your pedal rod is returning from booster or master cylinder and has slight gap or play in pedal up position. Have someone work pedal while you watch it. While you are there, see if you can get a film of lube on the main shaft underneath the boot. The adjustment on brake shoes should be backed off 3-5 clicks each if you have plenty of pedal. If only one side front is dragging, adjust both evenly. Same for rear, if only one is dragging, adjust both same amount. If starting from scratch, book method, lock them up evenly and back of 12-15 clicks each, depending on whose book you read. If 12 clicks leaves them touching, try 15, anything more would indicate some problem inside like the anchor pin not being not centered or return spring issue. Your shop manual should give you very good directions on all this. Shoes dragging ,like Willie said, will build heat. That heat is also transferred to wheel cylinder and fluid, the expansion of the fluid will create pressure in system and apply the brakes IF THE MASTER CYLINDER IS NOT RETURNING AND OPENING THE COMPENSATION PORT. John

[Guest btate]

John, I am giving up on fixing the brakes and will find a place that knows drum brakes for the repair. As simple as the adjustment may be, I want the brake problem to go away, but I think you are dead on the money.

[Guest btate]

Wife ready for vacation so, the Buick will be on hold for a week. NSRA show got rained out for the last half of Saturday and all day Sunday. Still enjoyed it all. Poured down rained All the way home. I think I need a break from the Buick for a while. I am going to do the compression test again when I get back and take car to a real brake repair place. I hope to make it to the Goodguys show with the Buick on May 17th. Thanks for all your help. Bill

[Guest btate]

Well, back to business. I went to a place this morning by the name Tire World. Their website looks better than their place of business. But, they seem to have some business. Didn't see a single guy over 30. That worries me, but they said the shoes and drum looked good and did a little sanding where the pad showed it got hot. I told them someone said more than likely the adjustment rod out of the master cylinder may be the problem. He said he consulted with another guy who has been their longer and they agreed the rod was tight up against the master cylinder and they loosen it by allowing a little slack. When I drove it in this morning I noticed the pedal was a little soft. I rolled it on our lift first thing this morning to see if shoes was still dragging and all wheels were free from drag. Before the brakes locked up,the shoes slightly dragged the drum, but not now. He asked me what I thought after I test drove it and I said everything feels the same. Maybe by loosening the master cylinder rod, maybe the wheels will not lock up. As I was checking out he said since your brakes got hot, I should change out the brake fluid. I don't know why he didn't do it , unless it just crossed his mind. Should I change the fluid? Still cannot get the vacuum right. One of the other guys tomorrow is going to bring in an timing light, that I believe he said with a dial in. This is beyond me. Today we could set best vacuum and engine runs very well with decent vacuum but then connect the vacuum advance, it hestitates and miss'es. I got to make it over Moneagle Mountain on I 24 Thursday somehow. Hope to make it to the goodguys show in Nashville

[55 SURVIVOR]

Does your vacum advance have a bad diaphram? Is it old? Is the intake gasket leaking?

[Guest btate]

my old distributor vacuum advance leaked but I bought a new MSD 8524. no leaks using a propane torch.

[55 SURVIVOR]

Bill;sorry I jumped into the post late,I see you have replaced the distributor advance.I would just address one issue at A time.you had an obvious problem with firing/rotor,cap problem.I would put more miles and give A break in on the newly rebuilt motor,the brakes are fairly easy to figure out,sounds like it was improper rod adjustment,the shoes can get hot and hotter and multiply the problem causing drag.Put it off the ground do they free spin after the brakes are applied?put A timing light on the motor,tweak the idle mix and rpm,and run it!! pull A plug after A few hundred miles and see how it is burning.The tranny? The dynaflow will respond sluggish,it is unlike A modern transmission,you had A good rebuilder do it. Also look for the obvious,like water in oil,oil in water,smoking,etc.But just time it properly and run it,out of time can cause over heat and no balls up A hill. Just some thoughts Mark M