BearsFan315 Posted October 28, 2020 Author Share Posted October 28, 2020 well decided to look more into the generator before i replace the brushes.looks like the shop did a 5 minute job on it, basically pulled the cover removed old armature, put in new armature, replaced the cut out with a newer diode style. threw it on the bench and validated it had output.this is with the engine running about 10-15 minutes.was hoping they would have at least looked at the bushing, bearing, springs, brushes, wiring and replaced any and all of it, they are easy simple parts all under $5 each !!gong to talk to them today, but want to validate that the output is adjustable on the generator. at idle the ammeter shows 0, then press on the pedal and it pegs the gauge on the charging side. going to put it on and use my meter to see various output is, if any. gauge is pegged with lights on or off. per my volt meter it is putting out 7.2-7.5V DC on the generator side.it is installed, belt on, battery connected, as i get 6.x volts on the battery side of the cutout.can i polarize with this type of cut out ? or will it fry it ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1930 Kram66 Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 Dont try polarizing the generator .... its working. By all means check to see if you can adjust your charge rate -might be to high. Try moving the third brush in the opposite direction to armature rotation to see if your ammeter reading decreases - with the lights on it should be no higher than 12-15 amps. With no load maybe 3-5amps. If you cant adjust the charge rate easily you have a problem in the field coils. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 I am not a fan of diode cutouts, but on a 3rd brush system with no regulator there is no reason for one not to work. It is normal for a generator to charge very little or not at all at idle. It is related to the number of poles and the speed the generator is turning at idle. I second that you don't need to polarize if it works. If you are pegging the ammeter, the charge rate is definitely set too high, or there is still a problem with the generator. Don't run it like that much. I suspect damage is likely to happen fairly quickly. I read on on the VCCA forums years ago that the "maxumum" output rating of the generator listed in manuals is only for testing, and the generator will damage itself if run indefinitely that way. It is probably true, because for normal use while driving, you would never set the third brush close to the maximum output shown in the manual. This is the sort of thing that gets noticed now when people add voltage regulators, and might want to use the maximum setting, but would not have been noticed in 1930 because the third brush would never be set to maximum (or higher) on a running driving car. The voltages you list sound reasonable to me, but don't pay too much attention. There is no voltage regulation, and the voltage could be literally anything. You only have current regulation and only by the third brush. A third brush generator will try to charge at its set current all the time, whether it is appropriate or not. Due to the idiosyncrasies of third brush regulation, the generator will only make it's maximum setting at one speed. Turn it faster or slower and you get less. The folks over on VCCA would probably give you a good place to start for a current setting. Off the top of my head I suspect 6 or 7 amps, but listen to them, not me. There is no setting that will satisfy operation with both headlights on and headlights off. It is always too low with them on and too high with them off. In 1930, there was no expectation you could drive forever at night without running out of battery. Also in 1930 the guy at the gas station could check your battery with a hydrometer now and then, and if it was undercharged, turn your third brush up a little. It is was boiling the battery and losing too much water he could turn it down. It all came down to normal driving habits and timing, and how much the lights were used. If the battery was fully charged (but no more) when you pulled into the driveway at the end off the day, the setting was just right. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted October 29, 2020 Author Share Posted October 29, 2020 ok, tinkered with the 3rd brush, did not change or do anything with the generator yet. used my multimeter and used the amp clamp to clamp the wire from the generator to the cut out. at idle was around 5A, then as i revved up the engine it went over 40A !! which would explain pegging the ammeter on the dash at 20A my understanding, and per the diagram on Bill's 1931Chevrolet Page, moving he brush away from the front brush, going towards the engine block would decrease the output !! however this increases the output. so i pulled the third brush all the way forward, as close as i can get to the front brush, and output at idle was around 1A, as i revved up it went up to around 4A. so i can have to push it away from the front brush to increase output. this is complete backwards of the diagram ?? i understand that the output should be around 8-10A at around 1700 rpm or cruising rpm. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 I try and set a generator to run right about zero amps with the headlights on at 35-40mph. Usually this gives me a good charge during the day. These days we drive our cars much less or not at all at night so I know guys that set it to a 1-2 amp discharge With the lights on and it should give about a 4-7 amp charge rate during the day. My 31’ with the Peterson regulator will charge only when needed and sometimes during the day shows no amps at speed and sometimes shows charging when the headlights are on. I recommend the Peterson regulator to anyone who plans on driving their car a lot. Mine is terrific and my battery is always charged. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1930 Kram66 Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 40amps!!! no wonder those brushes didn't look happy. 😊 Pleased that you have established that you can adjust the charge rate down. Suggest having the rebuilder replace the wear and tear items and check the windings [insulation] for any damage. BTW I have really enjoyed following along with your project through your posts - it must take a lot of your time - its appreciated. A very big Thank you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted October 29, 2020 Author Share Posted October 29, 2020 did some more checking this am before calling the shop back. with the third brush pushed all the way forward, i get the 1A idle 4A running, but as soon as i move it any away, it goes to 10A idle 40-60A running. so something is NOT right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted October 30, 2020 Author Share Posted October 30, 2020 talked with the shop and he inquired to validate I have a good solid ground, and then validate cut out is not a lemon. so i ran a hard ground direct to the generator casing. used one of the bolts on the case/housing. did a few random continuity checks on the generator and have a good solid ground. fired up the engine and checked generator and same ordeal. output does not seem to vary when i move the third brush. so something has to be wrong. or i am missing something. next i left ground connected and put on one of my 1929 cut outs that i know works. also metered it off the car to validate function before installing. installed and connected on the generator and same thing. i am going to swap out generators, and see if i install the one from the 1929 on the 1930 what happens, just to eliminate everything outside the generator itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 (edited) Something doesn't sound right. I don't know of a generator shop that would have rebuilt a generator and not told you the output and what they set it to, especially a 6v generator with the adjustable third brush. They have the equipment to bring the generator to average RPM and then read the output while they adjust it. The average person doesn't. The sparking and the brushes worn should have been addressed along with a new ball bearing and possibly and new bushing. When I do generators that is what I do whether the bearing is bad or not, it gets changed along with the brushes as doing those things prolongs the time before I will have to get in there again and hopefully, out last me so I never have to get in there. The last time I left a starter or generator alone and just cleaned it up came back to bite me. My olds starter threw one of the copper bars to the armature segments and shorted out on a coil. This was three days before going to Hershey! I luckily had taken the spare starter from my parts chassis and rebuilt it prior so all I had to do was change it out. So my original starter got pulled, and rebuilt with all new parts. I'll probably never need it now but it's in my trailer when I travel with my olds so I never leave home without it! LOL Edited October 30, 2020 by chistech (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share Posted October 31, 2020 well decided to channel my inner electric mindset... pulled the generator and then chased the circuit flow. also helped that i have the same generator on my bench from my 1929 which is in the engine shop. this generator works great. so can do a side by side. and what do you know it was a ground problem, one that the rebuilder caused !! the third brush was wired directly to the output wire, runs from brush to the gen side of cutout. this wire is supposed to run from the front stationary brush to the gen side of the cutout. the wire from the field coil is supposed to run to the third brush vs the front stationary brush. i swapped the wires around and then reinstalled, and away we went. i put the third brush all the way up (lowest output) and that is what i got. then pushed it closest to the front stationary brush and got the max output. approx 10A at idle up to 18A then slowly dies back off. I adjusted the brush so that it was putting out about 2-4A according to the dash ammeter, which is approx 6-8A at the cutout according to my hand multimeter. rev up to max output is approx 8A at ammeter. this is all with lights off. going to look into adjusting the cutout to ensure it is working correctly. i swapped out the electronic one for the old school one for now. wanted to validate it. going to drop off the generator at another shop on monday, talked to him today they are a delco-remy rebuilder, and seemed to know about these third brush generators. they are going to tear it down do a once over, check bushing, bearing, brushes, brush holders, brush springs, field coilds, armature, clips, connectors, and wires. as many of the wires are frayed and i put some heat shrink on them for now. they will also bench test it and set the output per the spec sheet or what i ask them to. said he would call me with recommendation BEFORE they do any work, and depending on what they do should only be a few days, they stock most the parts, unless there is something non stock he needs. also sell parts and can get parts for me if needed for most delco-remy items. including the starter !! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 I think dropping it off at another shop is a good idea. At least you learned of someplace NOT to go!😁 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1930 Kram66 Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 Good news - nice work on your part ! Agreed - second shop sounds much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted November 1, 2020 Author Share Posted November 1, 2020 well since putting in the thermocure and getting the generator functioning correctly i have run the car for 10-15 minutes at temp to cycle it through and let it do its job, many recommend you thermo cycle it s it works best when warm. looking at it today after cycling it, that stuff is pretty dark so assume it is working also pulled the generator off and will drop it off in the morning with shop 2 along with a check list and specs, same as i did for shop 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted November 2, 2020 Author Share Posted November 2, 2020 Dropped off generator at shop 2 this morning, with info i had (same as shop 1) they told me should only be a few days, since they stock most items in house we'll see what they have to say, wonder IF they will call me BEFORE they do any work, supposed to diagnose and tear down then call me with details and recommendation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted November 4, 2020 Author Share Posted November 4, 2020 while generator is in the shop, figured i would adjust the brakes, as they are a little soft. per the Odometer vehicle has about 800+ miles so figured time to adjust. only about 5+ miles since i got it. printed out the instructions from the 190 Chevrolet Service news, and grabbed my tools and rolled under the truck. pulled cotter pin, and then tried to pull out the clevis pin. what a pain. almost every single one was rusted and a pain to remove, either the pin, or the yoke, or both were rusty !! then i was unable to turn the adjustable yokes, as they were painted in place, and under the paint.... RUST. made the decision to pull the cross shaft and the rods/linkages from the truck and clean them up. a lot easier to remove a single cross shaft system vs a dual cross shaft system as on my 1929 !! going to break everything down, clean up the threads, put on new nuts and hardware where i can. any small rusty parts i have to reuse i will soak for a day or so in some evaporust and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted November 5, 2020 Author Share Posted November 5, 2020 few picts of parts out of the evporust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted November 5, 2020 Author Share Posted November 5, 2020 wanted to soak the other end of the brake linkage but it is attached to the cross shaft, so came up with a method to soak it in evaporust. this is my rig, i did put plastic over the evporust container to keep it from evaporating too quickly. evaporust is in the small tan colored container, and the larger Rubbermaid container is warm water. i heat it up in the microwave. will let it soak all day and see how it comes out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted November 5, 2020 Author Share Posted November 5, 2020 few shots of the cross shaft support cleaned up, along with the brake rods, and new hardware 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 Looking good, that is a lot of work. The PO of my 34 did this to all of the brake and suspension joints plus brake cables and I am very happy I didn't have to do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share Posted November 8, 2020 got all my parts painted and ready to go back on 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share Posted November 8, 2020 friday night, spent the night putting the brakes back together. then followed the tech service news and adjusted the rods and the four brakes. pedal feels a whole lot better and a lot less brake travel plan to take it out for a test drive on saturday, which will also be first true test drive to see how it runs and if it will overheat or be ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share Posted November 8, 2020 saturday, dropped in the generator from the 1929, since the one for the 1930 is in the chop. got it hooked up and fired up the car, and the output was right on. let the truck warm up then decided to take the car out for a cruise... did a quick around the block test, and checked all gauges, temp, oil, charge,,, so did a neighborhood run, about 3 miles or so. car temp stayed around the alcohol boils point, rose at stop signs a tad, but dropped as soon and i started moving. used my heat gun when i got back home to validate temps, everything seemed ok. on the radiator was about 160 at the top to about 130 at the bottom ate some lunch then decided to do a true run and drove it down the local roads, speed limit 35-40, drove down to the local shopping center about 5 miles down the road. watched the gauges and same as neighborhood driving. when i got to shopping center parked it and shut it off, temp jumped up a bit as expected. then started it up and drive back home. as soon as i started moving it cooled back to alcohol boils. got home and temp gun again, about the same as before. remember right now i am running thermocure and water only in the radiator, and that stuff is pretty dark now!! may need to drain it and put in fresh. the temperature outside was around 75F and sunny. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share Posted November 8, 2020 also the brakes were a lot better, lot less pedal travel before engagement, and stops a lot faster then before. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike "Hubbie" Stearns Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 Good to hear all went well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted November 12, 2020 Author Share Posted November 12, 2020 got a call rom generator shop 2... gentleman had finished rebuilding the generator, and was inquiring as to what output i would like it set to. he said it is working great, adjustable output, etc. he inquired as to how i was getting an output from the other armature ? stated it was bad, plus it was NOT the correct one for the generator and that looks like the one end was chewed up in the bushing. they are saving the old parts for me. he also stated when i come it he will put it on the bench and put it through its paces for me (demonstration). so kind of excited to go pick it up and see what we have. hoping for a fully functional & operational generator !! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 Shop #2 sounds like a much better shop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted November 14, 2020 Author Share Posted November 14, 2020 went by the gen shop this morning on my way into work and picked up my rebuilt generator. plus got my box of old parts. generator looks good, will install it and test it out. few pictures of the old parts. and the NEW old Armature original field coil, bearing, brushes, and NEW OLD armature (from other shop) close up of field coils armature from other shop close up on the bushing end of the armature, defined grooves !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted November 14, 2020 Author Share Posted November 14, 2020 few shots on the rebuilt generator GUTS brushes have been seated, generator output tested and validated, should be ready to rock and roll.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 Now that looks right! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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