Today's Discussion Topic

[Dave@Moon]

I'm going to try something. <P>I thought I'd start a thread where a random, automotive-related thought is tossed out for comment. These comments may be my own or from other's that I've heard/read. I may or may not agree with the thesis expressed, but I will try to only post subjects which I at least find to be valid. Hopefully these will start some discussion and thought (and maybe a little healthy friction). <P>If this flies, great. If not, I tried.

[Dave@Moon]

Today's topic:<P>Of all the car designs built in the U.S. in the 1970's, the Ford Pinto will be remembered among the top five when judged solely on it's styling.

[1937hd45]

I don't know what else was out there in the '70's, that you want compare the Pinto to. Dad bought a Pinto wagon in 1973 with the wood trim Squire package, out the door for $2,791.00. It was a good car for its size, loaded it with several years of Hershey flea market vendor stuff. The coupes were great donor cars for racing, the bodies went on the Modifieds, and the engines went into SCCA Formula Ford racers.

[Guest BruceW]

Dave,<P>I agree that the Pinto coupe with its flat hatchback will probably be among the top 5 cars of the 1970s that are remembered for their styling (the wagon had the basic looks of many other wagons). However it seems to me that when I hear people refer to the Pinto, they most often remember it by the exploding gas tank problem of the coupe, of which non flattering jokes are still made about.<P>I think perhaps the AMC Pacer would be more likely to be the best remembered for its styling due to its unique (at the time) wide passenger area. <P>Just some thoughts......<p>[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: BruceW ]

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Styling? The Pinto is a very recognizable car. It did get a bad rap (undeserved in my opinion) because of the gas tank deal, but you can easily pick one out of a crowd. Now, was it desireable because of its style? Probably not. It's price was likely it's selling point.

[Guest]

Regardless of any styling virtues the pinto was a pefect example of "thrifting" a bean counter's delight which dictated the wheelbase,greenhouse size, liberal use of existing components and yes, the decision to shave some space off the rear resulting in a fuel tank inches away from the differential, the rubber cushions that they offered after the prblem became known was just plain silly.<BR>I personally know 2 people that this happened to when rear-ended and while the tanks split and leaked fortunately they did not ignite.<BR>I know a retired insurance adjuster with a number of old claim sheets listing this problem among others.

[Joris]

We never saw a lot of Pinto's in Europe. Still it is a known car, an American beatle, which has some fame as being the Nr. 1 undercover FBI car. Right or wrong? Have anice day! Joris <P><A HREF="http://www.prewarcar.com" TARGET=_blank>www.PreWarCar.com</A>

[Guest]

I haven't any problem with the Pinto's styling. I just consider it to be a death trap. But then, I won't drive, or ride in anything so small nowadays. Just look around you at all the huge SUV's on the road. You wouldn't stand a chance.<BR>Rog

[Guest]

I had a 1972 Pinto in 1983-83. My only car at the time. It was "[censored] green" - my dad's description. As i recall i payed $200 for it. (every penny i had)<P>Ripped the entire interior out (cause of dry rot) and replaced the drivers seat with a dune buggy fiberglass job. Just bolted it to the floor. i threw a bean bag chair in the back... that really impressed the girlfriend at the time. it even had a bumper sticker, "STAY BACK, BOMB IN TRUNK!". (It came with the car) <P>I spun it in a rainstorm on a major road here in tucson (us westerners have no clue how to drive in the rain). Plowed it into the median and broke all sorts of parts in the front suspension. the drivers tire was way up in the fenderwell and the car sat on its frame. The tow truck took it away and i never even bothered to go pick it up. Got a call a few months later about a "storage bill". Told them to keep it. (i think i got the better end of the deal)<P>Peter

[Guest]

@Moon -<BR>As you know I'm always up for a little healthy friction. <P>I don't know if the Pinto will be in the top five of anything from the 70s, especially styling. There were a lot of holdovers from the muscle car era. And there were many new designs that had more pizzaz than the butt ugly Pinto. Consider: Chrysler Cordoba, Buick Rivera, Camaro Z28, Pontiac Firebird, Ford Torino ht, Mustang Boss, Lincoln Continental Mark I +, Mercury Cougar XR-7, Oldsmobile Toronado, Plymouth Baracuda, GM full size convertibles, even the AMC Pacer (gulp, choke, etc.). Of course, all this is just my opinion.

[Guest]

My wife had a 78 Pinto hatchback when I first met her and it had the safety bumpers to prevent inadvertant explosions.<P>Since I was a spray painter for the aircraft industry at the time and the car was an ugly tan and white, I decided to help her Dad fix up the body and prep it for paint. I spent the better part of a summer helping her Dad do the bodywork and sanding. "Dad" didn't have the resolve to do things properly (my way) so he did one side and I did the other. <P>Dad finished his side in about two weeks but mine took another week, I had constructed an entire rear wheel well out of an old hood and the finishing work took a little longer.<P>I took the urethane bumper inserts to be blasted because the old paint was starting to crack, I was determined that my new girlfriend was going to have the nicest Pinto in Winnipeg.<P>It was getting late in the summer and fall was upon us when all the prep work was completed, I went out and bought 2 gallons of 78 Ford XR7 Chamois a kind of brown/gold-I thought it would look classy and sharp.<P>I secured a friends uncles garage for the painting and spent another weekend cleaning the shop, putting up plastic and sweeping the cracked floor. The next Saturday was going to be paint weekend. <P>The Friday before, it snowed 3 inches and the temp dropped to below zero.<BR>I got the car into the shop Friday night to keep the snow off of it and tack it down. The shop had one of those double 55 gallon fireplaces and I thought that would be sufficient to keep it warm the next morning.<P>The next morning it was -10 C and I got up early to stoke up the fire and to mix the paint. At around 8:00 AM I realized that there was no way I could spray paint in a confined space with a open fire! It was going to be one cold paint job.<P>I tacked the car down one more time and put the first coat of paint on, about 3/4 through the water separator froze solid. Now I was using one of those industrial contractor compressors and the water output was about 1 cup a minute out of the tiny 3 gallon tank, I think it was designed for air nailers.<P>So out came the water separator and I added 5 times the recommended fish eye eliminator into the paint. I finished the first coat and stood back to have a look, the brown primer just looked wet with a slight shimmer of metallic to it. Obviously this was going to take a few coats.<P>After 4 hours and 10 coats the car still had a see-through paint job and the dust in the paint was terrible. My left eye began to twitch.<P>The paint was taking forever to dry between coats because of the temp and fisheye eliminator, I had my first run starting at the right rear fender.<P>I went for supper around 6PM and the car now had 20 coats of paint on it, it was starting to look like the color swatch at least and the run was under control with some tricks I had learned doing laquer.<P>The walk back to the garage was brutal, the temp had dropped to -20 C and the wind was howling. When I got back to the garage there was even more dust in the paint from the wind coming under the garage door, I plugged that off with some old blankets. My right eye began twitching.<P>I put the last 15 coats of paint on and finished around 4 in the morning, I had snow falling when I was shooting as the water content from my compressor had increased to 2 cups a minute I estimate, my hair and eyelids were frosted gold from the paint. <P>At least the car was looking good and the metallic was perfect, that much paint on the car made it look dipped. I closed the door and spent the next hour with paint thinner and baby oil getting the paint out of my hair. I went to bed at 6 AM, the twitching had subsided.<P>The next morning I went to the garage to see what she looked like and opened the door and was quite amazed at how good it looked considering the trouble I had. I touched an inconspicuous spot to see if it was dry-It was still as wet as when I first painted it. It took 2 weeks for the paint to dry enough for me to take the masking off and take the car out of the garage. It did look awesome though. <P>I drove the car to my girlfriends place and showed the car to "Dad", he was impressed. I was proud. Since I had parked the car out front to show it off, her older brother hopped in to park it in the back.<P>As he pulled in he hit the concrete filled steel pole marking the parking pads corners and busted the putty "Dad" had filled his fender with, the rust he had covered up spilled out onto the pad. My left eye started to twitch again.<P>Anyway she drove that Pinto all through college and we made many trips in it, busted fender with rust powder spilling out the whole time. <P>Weirdest thing about the paint job was the fact that the car hardly needed washing, the paint had a most unusual shine to it that never needed waxing and polishing. It was by far the smoothest paint job I have ever done or seen, I think the extra slow drying time and fisheye eliminator had something to do with it. The car literally looked like it had been dipped.<P>I look back and I think that when she bought the car the other choice she had was a 71 Firebird, but "Dad" liked the Pinto with the big sunvisor on it.<P>I have learned to hate Pinto's and for damn good reason too. <P>I gotta go, my eyes twitching again.<p>[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: Chuck da Machinist ]

[Dave@Moon]

Chuck,<P>I was in my best friend/college roommate's when we were t-boned by a speeding F-250. We should've been killed. I'll refrain from telling you what's twitching.

[Dave@Moon]

O.K., that went well. Now for the next one. Again, these are not necessarily my ideas, but some that I've come accross.<P>By the way, I think the Pinto is very attractive myself, given what it was. But who was it that thought that it should be painted in flat earth tones beginning about 1976? <P>Anyway, <B><I>DAY TWO:<P>Nobody will ever do a full, frame-off restoration/rebuild of any post-1990 car because of their complexity.</I></B>

[1937hd45]

Well,based past history I disagree. In 1961 I thought onbody would be restoring those cars of the '60's.

[Guest]

There is no frame to do a frame off. ~ hvs

[Guest Randy Berger]

I just happened on the Pinto styling comment and please believe me when I say I am not taking a personal shot, BUT the Pinto always reminded me of a toad waiting for a reason to hop. Beauty is in the eye, etc. <BR>As for the frame-off resto or ground-up might be a better term in this case, there will be people who will do this. There are always folks willing to put more into a vehicle than it is worth for a variety of reasons. It was the first car they drove while stupifyingly drunk. They lost their virginity somewhere in the passenger compartment. You know, sentimental reasons like that.

[D Binger]

The best looking Pinto was the station wagon with the port hole along with the full sized Van with the port hole that were both painted the same. I always thought that that would be a neat pair.<P>Dan

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Dang Howard! You beat me to it.

[Dave@Moon]

O.K., O.K.,.... We'll call it a <B>"Ground Up"</B> restoration. By definition we'll mean it to be complete disassembly, refurbishment/replacement of all components, and reassembly to <I>exact original factory stock condition</I>. <P>Bear in mind when answering this that the <I>average</I> car in today's showroom has around 100 decals/lables/inventory tags/etc. alone, each of which would have to be reproduced for individual models, often on a regional basis.<P>Stick that in your hat and date code it!

[Guest rcirilli]

I bought a Pinto the first year they came out. Paid $2,010.00 for if I remember right. I liked the car, a little under powered but a fun ride. I don't think Mustangs have frames either , do they?

[ex98thdrill]

The mustang II's were the same chassis compenents as the Pinto. The earlier Mustangs were based on the Falcon Chassis, and the '79-'93 Mustangs were based on the Fairmont (or "fox") chassis. I'm not sure about the '69-'73 Mustangs. Aside from the sheet metal, the Mustang II's and the Pinto's are the same cars mechanically.

[Dave@Moon]

O.K., that one didn't do too well. Let's try one more....<P><B><I>DAY THREE:<P>What best selling car had the lowest 25 year survival rate</I></B>(expressed as a percentage of those sold still registered for use or display at age 25)<B><I>?</I> </B><P>This question is asked in the absence of any hard numbers that <I>may</I> be available, but I wouldn't know where. I'll define best selling as being among the top 25 cars by model sold in the U.S. in a given year. Obviously cars made after 1977 are exempt.<P>This topic is meant to be purely seat of the pants guessing. I have no figures to check anyone against. If you have figures, by all means share them. This is not a test, it is an exhibition and not a contest. Please, no wagering! <p>[ 02-28-2002: Message edited by: Dave@Moon ]

[1937hd45]

Boy, I'd like to post a reply, But I don't have a clue as to what the question is.

[Dave@Moon]

I guess I can get kind of wordy at times <P>Essentially the question is: "What was the least durable yet popular car ever sold?"

[Guest]

Dave,<BR>I suggest you start a new thread for each daily topic. <BR>Peter

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Dave, just a wild guess. The VW Beetle.

[1937hd45]

Dave, I like this daily topic idea, and Peter is correct it needs a seperate post evey day. Sounds like this a PostWar question, so I'll vote for the VW Bug.If you want to consider PreWar cars, then any Chevrolet with a wood framed body.<p>[ 02-28-2002: Message edited by: 1937hd45 ]

[Al Smeraldo]

My guess would be any of the GM diesels.

[Guest]

Why Renault Dauphine of course!

[rocketraider]

Umph. Compared to a LeCar, a Dauphine was a Cadillac.<P>My uncle was the French car mechanic here for years by virtue of he had gotten an old Dauphine and rebuilt it into a reasonably reliable daily driver. So when the tractor dealership he worked for went under around 1965, the French car dealer came a-calling. One perk was a company car, so I got exposed to Ree-noh 10s, 12s, 16s and Fuegos; beaucoup Peugeots, and even a couple of Citroens. This dealership also handled British Leyland and itself went under in 1980. And that's when Buck decided it was time to go in business for himself, servicing all makes of tractors and farm equipment, and the remaining local French cars. He always said that once you realised that nothing was where it would logically be, French automobiles weren't that hard to drive and maintain in the States.

[Dave@Moon]

I agree that this single thread idea isn't working. I wanted to see how it'd do. If it's O.K. with everyone we'll use this one to kill this topic and move on.<P>p.s., I doubt the Dauphine or any of the GM diesels ever sold in quantities large enough to meet my (admitedly arbitrary) qualifications. The Dauphine <I>may</I> sneek in because there weren't many more than 25 other cars for sale when it was introduced. Does anybody have numbers?<P>I was thinking more along the lines of the Dauphine's contemporary best seller of 1957, the full size Ford, which sold in <I>huge</I> numbers (besting the most admired Chevy of all time). Yet it became comparitively rare even as it's restoration heyday was passing. Of course there's a 1957 Plymouth or two missing as well. <P>Other examples....? Dissagreements...? Etc....?<P>

[Guest]

Perhaps I was a little out of line with the Dauphine,mechanically they were fairly dependable but would rust before yer eyes.<P>I however have an electrified dauphine converted in '64 with a Baker electric motor, 96volt system,'bout 45 mph tops with 50 mile between charges.<P>Good for the occasional grocery run but I'm 6'4" and every year have more trouble trying to squeeze in.<P>I 'aint gonna lie to ya.

[ply33]

We had a Dauphine for a short while in the early/mid 1960s. Dad got it for a second car to drive to work in. Got it early one spring, sold it when summer came. Its cooling system simply was not up to the Tucson summer.<p>[ 03-01-2002: Message edited by: ply33 ]