1991 Reatta Located - Do I run numbers?

[Guest BJM]

I believe in most any registry or attempt to track numbers of cars left.

Last week I visited a local grocery store and there was a 1991 Reatta. At least it had 1991 wheels, so assume it was a 1991.

I admired it, then walked into the grocery store.

But I remembered that Barney is keeping a registry and thought maybe I should have been forward and leaned into the windshield and grabbed the VIN and wrote down a description, especially since it was a 1991.

How active is the Reatta community in jotting down VIN's and descriptions of Reattas seen even if being parted out?

Should I have risked embarassment or observation by getting this 1991 Reattas numbers and description?

Worst part is, now I can't even remember the color or interior. Kind of like asking the witness of a crime for details too long after the event....

[Guest steveskyhawk]

Jake said

"Worst part is, now I can't even remember the color or interior. Kind of like asking the witness of a crime for details too long after the event.... "

This is one of the reasons to NOT to be attempting to record data. Bad or incomplete data is worse than no data at all.

Besides taking a vin off somones car in a parking lot could also be dangerous to ones health also.

[Barney Eaton]

The strange thing that happens to people. They forget or remember it the way they wanted to see it.

While doing some research on a company that made wooden station wagon bodies, I talked to 3 people that worked there and got different stories from each, which is fact?

In this case the plant closed in 1950, if they were 20 at the time they are now 80, but they were there and somehow the story must be told.

Give me the last digits of the vin number and it is pretty easy to figure out the rest.

Which brings up a question for the experts. If a car was painted red at the factory, and it is now blue, what color goes into a database?

Edited April 30, 2011 by Barney Eaton (see edit history)

[farnelle]

It depends on the purpose of the data base. If just to record which vehicles survive I would say the current color.

For my British cars I can get a certificate from British Heritage Trust that tells me by Car Number how the car left the factory. Does not GM have that ability? I guess not since the polo green 91 convertible issue comes around about every month. Both the MG club and the Austin Healey clubs that I belong to maintain a registry and I believe they record only the car number.

Just thoughts from a non-expert.

[padgett]

Purkle naturally. Real color will be in the spare tire well.

Or could just go to CompNine

11T TOP COLOR,VINYL,WHITE (11T)

40Q MOLDING COLOR,WHITE (40Q)

40U EXTERIOR COLOR,PRIMARY (40U)

EXTERIOR COLOR,PRIMARY,WHITE (40U)

75A ACCENT STRIPE,RED (75A)

78F FLOOR COVERING COLOR,GARNET RED (78F)

78I INTERIOR TRIM,GARNET RED INTR TRIM(78I)

784 TRIM COMBINATION - LEATHER, GARNET RED (784)

789 SEAT BELT COLOR,GARNET RED (789)

Edited April 30, 2011 by padgett (see edit history)

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

If and when I find the 91 convert given by Hugh Hefner to the 1991 Playmate of the Year in Playmate Pink with a white top and interior I'm going to keep my mouth shut about it.

That's the one I really want to have. Who cares what cars are out there painted in stock factory colors with stock interior and top colors? The one that is painted in a non stock color with a non stock color top or interior is going to be rarer than any stock color combination since there were probably at least two of each possible combination made as far as I can see.

Nobody jumped on that pace car on ebay that was a true one off Reatta. Why not?

What makes one Reatta worth more than another to you? Rarity? Mileage? Particular color combination? Prior owners or lack thereof? How close it is to factory original showroom condition or what engine, wheel, suspension or brake upgrades have been done to it that enhance appearance or performance?

One of my daily drivers is worth more to me than an emerald green convertible with white top and interior with major damage sitting in a junkyard with a salvage only title, or in pristine condition sitting in the Oldsmobile museum. I'd never buy either of them for different reasons.

What makes one Reatta worth more than another is a very subjective matter in the mind of the buyer.

The database that Steve decries as being worse that worthless to him because it mistakenly showed a car as scrapped that wasn't aids others in showing that a car is as stock as it left the factory or one of the rarer color combinations to another. Knowing production numbers can help one get a collectible plate in NJ, and knowing how many and which cars are still around is helpful too. There is no such thing as an error free database of any significant size, and saying it is useless because it isn't is foolhardy. I agree that it's tragic when an accounting database error affects the balance in your checking account, but would that possibility be grounds for barring the banking industry from using databases at all since they can never be made error free?

Can't we all just get along and just revel in our individual and collective enjoyment of this great example of an automobile?

[Rawja]

Well said.

[padgett]

Depends on your attitude. The Reatta just happens to fit my life better than other cars. Having grown up in a resort, "celebrity" just does not mean very much to me, particularly seeing how most treat their cars (my image of Palm Beach will always be a Rolls Royce with bald tires).

Now I live in a movie town. When someone asks about a movie car, the question is usally "which one ?" Movie cars are rarely one off, often it gets into double digits when you consider drivers, camera, cutaway, jump, crash, and just spare cars. Vanishing Point used at least eight Challengers and one Camaro.

I do like the 90 Select Sixty but for the color combination not the SS designation.

Rare ? Have had several double digit and a few single digit production cars but you have to make a distinction between "rare" and "desirable" (rarest Pontiac: 1 of 1 documented, was for sale in Lakeland a few years ago but I passed because I really had no use for a 1966 Bonneville four door hardtop with base tripower 389 and a four speed).

.

Do find documentation useful and in the long run may add value, do not always follow my own rules but generally when interested in a car I "run the numbers" and know quite a bit about it before I ever make an offer and tend to be quite selective.

Jim said he would post the details later but there is a white '90 vert with red interior in Tampa that sounds interesting if anyone is in the market: 145k miles and an engine miss but cosmetics look good, apparently no rust, and good glass and top. A/c even said to work (qualify because is about 100 miles from here & have not seen in person). I just have too many at present but sounds like a deal.

[wws944]

For 90-91 cars, the compnine database is terrific. I've had a good time mining various pieces of information from it. Unfortunately, it only knows about a couple hundred '88 and '89 cars - and I have not hit on any of the VINs it has. (Tried firsts, lasts, strides, etc.)

While one might think a white '90 convertible with garnet red interior is relatively common, when I put my VIN into compnine it reports that there are only 8 with the same options, and 24 with 'at least as many'. (The other 16 must have either come with CD player and/or were Canooks.) Rarer than a Select Sixty!

However much rarer is my beater 1990 Regal. According to compnine, out of 57k 1990 Regal Customs it is unique. One of one. (I think the combination of the blacked out trim, rather than chrome, and the neat looking luggage rack/wing on the trunk lid help its uniqueness. It was a great looking car when it was new.) Is it worth more than $1k or so? Nah.

One other note on the Regal: The compnine database calls it a Limited. However it is actually a Custom. It has been in the family since new, and besides the car, I have all the original paperwork to prove what it is. Does this discredit the entire compnine database? Do I care? Nah.

Edited April 30, 2011 by wws944 (see edit history)

[padgett]

All datapoints are flawed. A good researcher understands this and looks for at least three sources (and must be careful that all do not come from the same root). It is not hard to "plant" information (ir disinformation), just need to be patient and persistant.

CompNine is a valuable resource since it seems to have tapped into GM records (though information prior to 1990 is very spotty).

At the same time automotive information from the manuufacturer is invaluable. Barney, how is the complete VIN set coming ? I'd be glad to help.

[Barney Eaton]

This rare or rarer, valuable or more valuable debate has gone on since the put engines in wagons.

Ed Farnell mentioned he could get the vehicle info from the British manufacturer. That same info is available from GM U.S. if you own a 1990 or 1991. For some reason the 1989 and earlier cars are not in their database. You can go to the online source and by putting in your vin number, it will give you the codes for your car as it was built. You can also go to your GM parts department and ask if they will print the Service Label code for your vin, in most cases they will. However, you don't need that for a car you own, that same information is in the trunk by the spare tire. For that reason I do not understand the debate about 1991 Polo Green convertibles. If they were built the information will be there and it is not.

In Canada, they apparantly have better records at GM and the Canadians claim you can make the request to GM there and they will send you a packet of information on your car.

The online Reatta database....... this is not my database, it belongs to everyone, I just maintain it. All the information is gathered from owners and information they send me.

It has been strongly suggested that I "makeup" this information, why would I create a boqus database when the information is available to verify a cars DNA?

In 2008 Larry Gustin, if you have any press releases for the Reatta you will see they were written by Larry, loaned me a 443 page print out of every Reatta built. He had it run when Buick was leaving Flint for Detroit. I ask a lot of people how we could handle this information because it was in a very unfriendly format. There was no sequence to the cars. They were not in vin number sequence or printed by color. Roy Faries with the Dallas BCA club works for a company that handles data and records and they have the abiltiy to scan a document and convert it to a digital format. Roy volunteered to scan the info on his lunch hour and see what he could do.

Last spring Roy returned most of the 443 pages to me. He scanned 1988, 1989, and 1990 and lost 1991. The 1988 data is in pretty good shape. He cannot find the 1989 digital information. 1990 is complete and is being corrected. What needs to be corrected?

When it is scanned and digitized.... the software sometimes thinks an "8" is a "B" , "I" and "1" are switched. In an effort to make the final product as perfect as possible, all these corrections must be made and crossed checked with the original document for correctness.

I have put many hours into the 1990 file and have lots more to do. I have even had people helping me but it is labor intense.

If there is a downside to the information Larry supplied, it is not as complete as would be ideal. It list the vin number of the car, the dealer or GM location to which it was shipped to or built for on about 90% of the listing, the remainder are blank, the city, state, color (by code number) and interior (by code number)

With this information it would be fairly easy to search for unique Reattas. Example, you could sort for all dark grey (1988) cars and then look at the interior colors, you could easilly find any cars with red (burgundy) interiors, or blue.... even a tan interior in a dark grey car would show up.

[padgett]

The question is the format. If scanned as an image, the only answer is to check every number. If it is digital (OCR output) then a fairly simple program could check the format. While is is easy to mistake a B for an 8 or 1 for an I, they shouldn't (never say never) both be options for the same location. Bounds checking is relatively easy and if you would like me to make an independant cross check (and none of my Reattae are unique), I would be glad to write the programs, am really very good at that.

I helped Fred Simmonds with the Pontiac Project that parsed every Pontiac Serial number and VIN from 1959 to 1984(Pontiac retained the later information. PHS now maintains all of them.) So have both been there before and know the value to the hobby.

[reattadudes]

"this is not my database, it belongs to everyone"

Barney, that would be great if it was accurate. accurate would be ONLY data from GM records, NOT information gleaned from third and fourth hand information from "reliable" places like eBay, AutoTrader, and various Pennysavers that the "database" is so chock full of.

I've pointed out numerous times how I've seen brand new cars at my dealership that had incorrect VINs on the MSO (manufacturer's statement of origin; this is what a state title is issued from), and that's why every VIN is visually verified, from document to windshield VIN to door VIN. if anyone ever takes their car in for a state inspection or an emission test, do you ever notice they ALWAYS check all three spots? if the information provided on the registration is so accurate, why is it ALWAYS verified three times? because this is how errors are found....and you're taking information from the internet or Pennysaver as "accurate".

Barney, I can remember when you called me back in 2004 about your work on the 1991 database. you told me you commandeered a service writer's computer at a local GM dealer, and started punching in 1991 VIN numbers. you told me there were quite a few cars (coupes, in this case) that had no colors listed with the VINs, so you made them "green". this is "scientific" data? it seems much more likely you wanted to get the entire 1991 "database" completed, with absolutely no regard for accuracy; get all the spaces filled in, no matter what.

suddenly, the number of green coupes went from "less than 50" to "almost 150" in the blink of an eye, merely by making unreported colors "green".

anytime I mention anything to dispute your "database", I'm ridiculed by either you or bobbleheads who have most likely never seen another Reatta besides their own; it's like high school all over again.

I ask one very simple question here: what would the point of mentioning this be for me, other than it was told to me by the guy who was at the Craft Centre from 1987 to 2001? does he have anything to gain here, other than sharing what they did?

do you suppose the thought of the MSU car (down to the smallest details, like sending the head restraint covers to Oldsmobile for the "Sparty" embroidery) came to me in a dream after a spicy Mexican dinner, or is Tony lying about this? does the mere thought of it's possible existence pose a direct treat to the 1991 "database"?

I do want to take the time here and thank all of the folks who have written and called (thank you, "lurkers"!) about this MSU car. everyone remembers it, and I now have eight people in the Alumni Association looking for photos of the car.

of course, when those photos are found, Barney, will you and the "bobbleheads" then say it's a repaint? of course, we both know the answer to that one! that's why I plan on continuing to the tag in the trunk. what will happen then?

there have been several other people mention the strong likelihood that there were many "special" Reattas built (including one on this thread), but you ignore that. I've mentioned the fact that I've been in the car business my entire life (including ten years owning a new car dealership), but any information or personal experience provided to you is thrown out like last night's sushi, because it threatens the "information" the "database" provides.

after my first meeting with Tony over eight years ago, I posted the following on this very forum:

-"the VINs were NOT built sequentially". didn't you just mention the same thing? and back in 2002, you said absolutely not.

-"many off standard color combination were built". your response back then? "if it wasn't in the catalog, you couldn't get it". how do you feel about that now? I'll bet that sapphire blue/saddle 1989 coupe at the meet in Colorado Springs was a real fly in the proverbial ointment.

-"many convertibles were built with cloth tops". your response: "I've never seen one, so they didn't make any". how did that work out for you? back in 2003, when we were both in the same room at the Tech Center in Flint, that jug-eared guy with the southern accent who worked on the trim line pulled out his scrapbook of photos of convertibles with cloth tops. did you say, "gee, Mike, I was wrong about that"? of course not.

why in the world would I mention that 2 or 3 1991 Select Sixtys were built? that's truly something that would never enter my mind. has the thought that some of the VINs from the scrapped cars were reused to build other replacements? they had the parts, they had the people, and they had the time. do you really think that if a high level GM executive said, "build me a green convertible (or any color, for that matter)", they said no?

the only reason I mention any of these rich and unforgettable experiences I've had talking to Mr. Alberto is because I like to share the firsthand history Tony provides, and I know that many appreciate this from a truly rare prospective that will no longer be available in a few short years. when this first hand information is gone, it's gone forever.

Mike Rukavina

buickreattaparts.com

Edited April 30, 2011 by reattadudes (see edit history)

[Barney Eaton]

Clarification from the other side of the isle.

Barney, I can remember when you called me back in 2004 about your work on the 1991 database. you told me you commandeered a service writer's computer at a local GM dealer, and started punching in 1991 VIN numbers. you told me there were quite a few cars (coupes, in this case) that had no colors listed with the VINs, so you made them "green". this is "scientific" data? it seems much more likely you wanted to get the entire 1991 "database" completed, with absolutely no regard for accuracy; get all the spaces filled in, no matter what.

The missunderstand in your statement above.... at the time we had gaps in the data, meaning there might be 10-20 or 30 vin numbers between entries. Back when Terry Beltran-Miller (global marketing manager for On-Star) had her Polo Green coupe for sale. I called her to get more information on the car. First she worked for GM and therefore would be an "insider" during the conversation she told me that it was common knowledge withing GM that only 50 Polo Green cars were made. On the surface that would be gospel for most people. But there was enough information gathered for the database to make me feel strongly otherwise.

The way I approached the "voids" or lack of information was pretty simple. Take a know green car from the database and work the vin number forward until the color changes on the cars (the cars were painted in color batches) then work the numbers backward until the color changes. Now we have documentation on a batch of green cars. By doing this with every known green 1991, I was able to establish the total number built.

If there was a way of convincing you I would gladly send you the vins on all 120 green cars but you would have some personally experienced excuse for not accepting the facts.

We all know you worked at and owned car dealerships. I will not question that you probably received bad documentation on cars delivered to you. But manufacturing a car is a little different. When a body is assingned a vin number, that gives it idenity. Everything that is done to that car is tied to that vin number. They actually have people assigned to make sure this happens. We are not talking about the plant that John Cash talks about in his song. This is the real world in 1991.

Next this ............

[I]why in the world would I mention that 2 or 3 1991 Select Sixtys were built? that's truly something that would never enter my mind. has the thought that some of the VINs from the scrapped cars were reused to build other replacements? they had the parts, they had the people, and they had the time. do you really think that if a high level GM executive said, "build me a green convertible (or any color, for that matter)", they said no?

There were 5 cars built in 1991 that a novice might call Select Sixtys. The Select Sixtys were built in 1990 (and I can provide the vin number for all 65). Because there were white seats and panels unused after that build (you even agreed that Buick was selling the white parts very cheap to get rid of them) Buick offered the white interior as an option in 1991

The Product Manual is very clear and show photos of the interior. The trim code for white seats with red carpet/dash etc was 729, the 16 way seat option in that color was 749.

there was also a white seat option with blue carpet/dash etc...that was code 721 and the 16 way option in that color combination was 741. Calling the 1991 convertibles with white seat Select Sixty cars would only happen with a lack of Reatta knowledge.

The 5 convertibles built in 1991 with white seats are as follows.

900372 = White ext w/16 way seats, white/blue interior this was Tom Englin's car

900381 = White ext w/ 16 way seats, white/flame red interior, red pinstripe, no CD, Ed Mertz

900561 = Maui blue ext w/standard seats and white/blue int, white pinstripe CD player

900615 = White ext w/standard seats and white/blue int, white wheels, no CD, blue pinstrip

900616 = White ext w/16 way seats, white/flame red int, CD, red pinstripe, at NH school

Last, I know Tony and I called him after your post, his comments were interesting.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Barney Eaton (see edit history)

[reattadudes]

as I mentioned, spaces were filled in with was believed by you to be "true". you logic that ALL cars were built in batches is also incorrect. if they built a beige or white diamond car, they didn't build ten of each.

the Craft Centre was set up from the beginning for custom work. cars were constantly pulled off the line for either custom work, or to have any minor damage repaired. do you suppose the line stopped when a car was pulled off, and production waited to resume until the affected car returned to it's "place"?

no, it didn't. the line continued, and the repaired car was put back on the line when the work was completed. hence, one of the reasons for out-of-sequence VIN numbers.

I distinctly remember your reference to Ms. Beltran-Miller, Barney; your rude comments to her are etched in my memory banks. you said, "I CHALLENGED her to prove there were only 50 polo green cars".

"challenged".

"challenged" a female General Motors employee.

here is a woman who worked for General Motors for a long time, and has access to REAL information, not information gleaned by using a service advisor's commandeered computer, and filling in a bunch of blank spaces based on a bunch of totally false assumptions.

it's interesting that over the years you endlessly trash or discredit anyone, including GM employees and GM employees who have direct knowledge of the Reatta Craft Centre, as not remembering events correctly or as outright liars for the mere fact that something they say is in direct opposition to your "truth".

I've certainly gotten used to having you call me a liar, but I don't remotely EVER think for a second that these extremely competent and experienced sources within GM don't know more than I do, just because their recollection is different that what was considered to be common knowledge. as a matter of fact, I consider it an incredible honor for them to even share their personal knowledge and experiences with me; truly an honor. I also afford them the utmost respect.

I had several reasons for discussing things I've seen at a dealer level; the mention of VIN inaccuracies was only one of them. I've also seen a lot of very strange vehicles get dropped off by a transport truck that no brochure ever featured, and not just an off standard color.

in closing, I find it interesting that you avoided many of the points I made in my previous post, as they were examples of other times you were completely incorrect in your assumptions, just like you are with the ones you've "challenged" here.

I'm sure Mr. Alberto will be glad to know he's thought of as a "novice"

for some strange reason, General Motors thought of him quite differently, and so do I.

Mike Rukavina

buickreattaparts.com

[Guest gotitright]

Good grief! I am glad I have a white 91!

[Ronnie]

LOL... Will there never be an end to this contest?

[padgett]

CompNine seems to have complete parts sticker info which includes options and color codes both inside and out so the information exists (at least for 90 and 91). Maybe each of us should take 10 1991 VINs, run, extract as text, and compile.

Are a few more 90's. Wonder if CompNine might do batch dumps.

Thoughts ?

[Guest steveskyhawk]

I agree with Padgett. We need a new database with accurate verifiable data.

[jonlabree]

AMEN Ronnie!!!!!!!!!!!

[Barney Eaton]

There is nothing to stop anyone from starting a new database. In fact with all his contacts and knowledge of how the auto industry is run, Mike would be the logical choice.

It would be great to see documentation on all of the "specials" he has knowledge of, actually it would be interesting to see any documentation.

The process is very simple, you see one of these specials that is secretly hidden away. You get the vin number and verify it against GM's data. Better yet you politely ask the owner if you can view the Service parts label in the trunk. Take a photo and that will show you the cars DNA.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Barney Eaton (see edit history)

[jonlabree]

Barney, That's the best idea I have heard. Think we should turn it all aver to Steve and see what he can come up with. "At least it will be Accurate".

[farnelle]

I am a peace with myself on this issue. I have never really wanted a 91 polo green Reatta convertible. I own a perfectly good British racing green 69 MGC which I can prove is original. Oops, it has a tan cloth top, and I can prove that was not original, but I like it better than black vinyl. Interior is easy. 69 MGC's were offered in three colors. Black, black or black.

Should I drive this jewel to Danvers so we have a green convertible in the area? Actually polo green and British racing green were very close.

This whole thread reminds me of the argument about the true color for the Austin Healey 3000 engine. The argument has gone on for years as to what shade of green was correct. Actually Johnson outboard motor green is pretty close to many "original" cars I have seen.

At a National Meet in Snowmass, WV a number of years ago, Donald Healey was in attendance. I was in the room during a question and answer session with Mr. Healey and the question of engine paint came up. I still get a kick out of his response that was something along the lines of "we had a green color we used, but if we happened to run low and needed to paint some engines we might add some other color like black to make it through the run." Having seen many concourse Healeys that have obviously never been touched, you can be sure that Mr. Healey knew what he was talking about.

[padgett]

Didn't say we needed a new database, much easier to build on what we already have and just indicate which is from GM and which is hearsay.

[Guest steveskyhawk]

I don't often agree with Jon but in this case I do. Somebody that is more computer savvy than Barney or I should start over. Barney's use of unverified data and his technique of "filling in the blanks" based on his opinion has corrupted the existing data. He has unknowingly tainted the original data he started with. How are we to know at this point what is true and what is made up? Padgett points out that CompNine could provide a new accurate starting point for the 90-91 models in which case our current database should be deleted.

[wws944]

Funny thing is that I recently found a Reatta that was *not* listed in Compnine, but *was* listed, correctly, in Barneys database. Barneys entry was logged in 2004. And no, the Reatta was not a '88 or '89 (where CompNine data is almost non-existent.)

[William Rule]

Padgett has it right!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest daleevans]

While I didn't 'work' in the plant, as an outside contractor/supplier to the Craft Centre, I spent an inordinate amount of time inside the plant. I'd like to clarify that mostly the Craft Centre didn't build the cars on the traditional "line". The cars, at whatever stage of build they were in, were taken from station to station on mules. The mules were low, flat transporters that ran by "communicating" with floor tracks that were hidden in the floor. The mules had an interesting way of showing up for their duties and trying to run over us! To stop them, you had to give them a swift kick on the "bumper" thingy on the front. That made them think they had run into a wall and they'd stop!

Some build actions 'were' done on a line setup, like setting the engines, etc.

Yes, there was a level of customization possible like the chromed pipes on the car built for Frank Sinatra, Jr. For my own Reatta, 1990 red coupe w/grey guts, I followed it through the plant and watched as each craftsperson signed my card!

"Dale"

as I mentioned, spaces were filled in with was believed by you to be "true". you logic that ALL cars were built in batches is also incorrect. if they built a beige or white diamond car, they didn't build ten of each.

the Craft Centre was set up from the beginning for custom work. cars were constantly pulled off the line for either custom work, or to have any minor damage repaired. do you suppose the line stopped when a car was pulled off, and production waited to resume until the affected car returned to it's "place"?

no, it didn't. the line continued, and the repaired car was put back on the line when the work was completed. hence, one of the reasons for out-of-sequence VIN numbers.

.....

Mike Rukavina

buickreattaparts.com