Period Accesories

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Susan and Restorer32 had some thoughtful exchange under a recent post on Trippe Lights that made me wonder about authenticity. Starting here as a separate thread to clarify topic and if it spreads to other accy. besides Trippes that is fine with me.

So my question is - if as Restorer suggests there is little or no documentation that these lights came from the factory on Classics (or non Classics for that matter) does that alone make them non-authentic? I wonder if you can kind of surmise they were popular period accy. based on the years Trippe made them and the fact it was unlikely they would be sold for cheaper cars?

Just curious what people think here.

[sambarn]

I bought a Honda Element, new from the dealer in 2005, a month later I was unhappy with the cheap stereo and took the car to a car audio guy and had a better system installed. The installer told me "this model is very popular for these cars (for a few unimportant reasons)" The unit is period correct, popular and in my mind neccessary but is by no means from the factory. I wanted them, I made the change on MY car. Because it is a popular model or accessory for that car doesn't make it any more correct for AACA judging. However, the knickers I wear to special events with the car are not period correct (purchased online from a golf accessory store) but are a great accessory for AACA judging. The goofy pants usually make the judges smile and who couldn't use more smiles? In addition to that they don't get judged like Trippe lights would so no harm, no foul.

[Shop Rat]

As far back as I can remember, I started judging in Sept. 1990, the Trippe and Pilot Ray lights have been permitted in those classes that I copied and pasted the rule about.

Somewhere back in the archives would be the notes in the minutes of a meeting as to when they were approved and why.

I will tell you from my personal experience with getting the ruling put into the Judging Guidelines, regarding the brand of headlights not mattering, it took me three years to get it put in. The rule had come down in 1995 and somehow just never made it into the Judging Guidelines.

One of the members here challenged the rule and said he would not let the lack of T-3 headlight slide because the rule was not in the Guidelines. So I started a personal mission to get the rule in the Guidelines to protect owners from incorrect deductions being made.

With the help of Dave Berg, that taught that new rule to me in judging school at Shelbyville, TN, and others, it is now in as an official rule. (Item 14, page 21 of the 2011 Official Judging Guidelines.)

14. Headlights should be of the period and

matching. Non-matching, but period correct,

headlights will receive a 1 point deduction

per headlight. Specific brand (i.e. Guide

T-3, Westinghouse, GE, etc.) is unimportant.

[Guest 1929model75]

Susan would you be kind enough to post the classes they are allowed in. Thank you

[Shop Rat]

Susan would you be kind enough to post the classes they are allowed in. Thank you

Happy to.

Here is the rule regarding Trippe and Pilot Ray driving lights. It can be found at the top of page 21, item 10, in the 2011 Official Judging Guidelines handbook.

Sorry but some of the names are jammed together. They are out from each other in two columns in the Guidelines.

10. Trippe and Pilot Ray driving lights are

accepted on classic cars and certain pre-

WWII production vehicles.

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As far as I know the Judging Committee has the full list of which "certain Pre-WWII production vehicles" are allowed to have them.

Here is the list of the classes and specified classic vehicles. It can be found on page 40 of the 2011 Official Judging Guidelines.

I am sorry but some of the names are jammed together. They are out from each other in two columns in the Guidelines. Hopefully you can make them out.

SPECIFIED CLASSIC VEHICLES

(Classes 18d, 18e, 19a-e)

Alfa-Romeo Lagonda

Alvis Lancia

Auburn 8 and V-12 LaSalle

Bentley Lincoln (not Zephyr)

Bugatti Lincoln Continental

Buick Limited (through 1948)

(Series 90, 1931-42) Marmon Sixteen

Cadillac Marmon

Chrysler (Model 88 & Big 8)

(1931-33 Imperial Maybach

Models CG, CH, CL, Mercedes

CQ) and 1930-42 Mercer

Derham & LeBaron) Minerva

Cord Nash (1932 990 Series)

Nash (1940 Saknoffsky Cabriolet)

Cunningham Packard

Darracq (except models 110,

Daimler 115c, 120 & Clipper)

Delage Packard Darrin 120 Series

Delahaye (1938-42)

Diana (1925-1926) Peerless 8 cylinder

Duesenberg Peerless V-16

DuPont Pierce Arrow

Franklin Rolls-Royce

Hispano-Suiza Ruxton

Horch Rohr

Invicta Stutz

Isotta-Fraschini Talbot

Edited March 16, 2011 by Shop Rat (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

So it looks like they may have applied the logic I mentioned above, for example, Trippes are OK on a Sr. Packard, but not a Jr. (I do not believe those in particular are listed in any Packard accy. catalogs, but most accesories of the time could be purchased for any model car.) Tough to get perfect, though.

Susan how does the judging manual deal with things like "suicide knobs" on steering wheels popular at the time, or those fans that mount to the column on many pre-war cars? Or curb feelers for postwar cars? Curious as I really do not know much about AACA judging particulars. I have always been interested in period authentic cars but have not followed the AACA specifics much.

Thanks

[Restorer32]

The 1932 Packard Approved Accessory Catalog shows a Single Trippe light quite unlike the traditional bumper bracket mounted Senior Trippes, which apparently were originally intended for over the road trucks. Don't get me wrong, I intend no vendetta against Trippe lights. I like them and have a pair that might end up on my car someday.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Jeff I agree - the earlier Packards really wear them well! Your earlier discussion just got me thinking about accy. in general & AACA judging procedures.

Also I didn't know they were in the 32 catalog; I sure would like to find a set of "Packard driving lights" that show up in the 39 accy. catalog someday.

[MCHinson]

how does the judging manual deal with things like "suicide knobs" on steering wheels popular at the time, or those fans that mount to the column on many pre-war cars? Or curb feelers for postwar cars? Curious as I really do not know much about AACA judging particulars. I have always been interested in period authentic cars but have not followed the AACA specifics much.

Thanks

If they are factory installed or factory authorized, they will simply be judged for condition. If they are aftermarket, as most of these are, they will warrant a deduction in AACA Judging.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Thanks Matt, that answers a good bit of it for me.

I guess it would add a lot of difficulty to the process, but it seems like a period correct car could conceivably have some of these types of accesories. But then you get into "where do you draw the line." etc. So I guess "factory authorized" is well thought out approach...

[Restorer32]

AACA judging accepts factory installed or factory authorized accessories ONLY. Dealers were free to install whatever accessories they wanted, for example locally sourced undercoating or dealer advertising license surrounds, but these would warrant a deduction under AACA rules. The only exceptions are the few items, like Trippe lights, that are accepted for no other reason than "tradition" for lack of a better term.

[West Peterson]

I started a similar question in the Judging forum:

http://forums.aaca.org/f121/dealer-installed-factory-items-300232.html

[Guest Foggy norm]

Thats a good point about the sealed beams. Back in the day, you couldn't expect a driver to beeline to a dealership to replace a headlight with a police officer waiting behind a billboard.

As for factory authorized?, what determine's this. Many after market fog lights are stamped with names of car manufacture's and obviously are not company items. But they must get permission to use the name? Packard used Unity for pre 41 fog lights and CM Hall for 41+ fog sealed beam. Both type wear the packard crest with rivets, I'm guessing both are factory authorized accy?

As for the Trippe, Driving lights were usually used as a single, tho 2 balances nicely, does that matter?

Edited March 17, 2011 by Foggy norm (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

Norm, it is really simple. It may not be how you want it to be but it is still quite simple....

Factory authorized items are those that are listed in factory literature or factory photos. Documentation is the answer. AACA does not judge the car "as the car appeared after the driver had modified it to his or her preference" AACA Judges a car as the car could have been come from the factory, including factory authorized accessories...

[Marty Roth]

To fudge the point slightly, I believe that in Judging School in either Louisville or Moline, the statement was more to the effect of " how the vehicle could have left the factory, or how it could have left the dealership"

In many cases, factory approved accessories such as Radio, antenna, side-view mirror, driving/fog lights were either shipped with the vehicle for later installation, or were furnished from dealer stock.

Dad chose to have his 1957 Plymouth Savoy radio antenna installed at the left rear, ahead of the trunk lid, instead of on the right front fender. The side view mirrors were intended to be mounted on the front doors, but at Dad's request they were installed by the dealer (Novo Motors on Morristown, NJ) on the front fenders.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Marty Roth (see edit history)

[Guest Foggy norm]

Thanks Matt, Ok, this is what strike's me, "could have been from the factory" and "including factory authorized accy's". So a dealer item is or isn't? Some accy's wouldn't be applied till the owner received the car, because of their fragil nature in shipment, ie. fog lights. Are back-up lights an accy the dealer would apply, for similar reason?

[Guest Foggy norm]

Hi Marty, You gotta love the fifty's, when you could still tell the dealer what acessory's you wanted and how you wanted them.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I suppose safest approach if one were to pursue AACA awards is to put on the period accesories after the car's AACA career is over. I have never had a problem with period accesories but can see how it is hard to draw the line.

[MCHinson]

Thanks Matt, Ok, this is what strike's me, "could have been from the factory" and "including factory authorized accy's". So a dealer item is or isn't? Some accy's wouldn't be applied till the owner received the car, because of their fragil nature in shipment, ie. fog lights. Are back-up lights an accy the dealer would apply, for similar reason?

The key factor is if the dealer installed item is "factory authorized". For example, I remember in the early 80s, in a Buick dealer showroom, a display with all of the different available Buick radios that you could upgrade to and have installed in your car.

If a dealer installed an upgraded optional factory authorized radio it would be OK. If, however, you and the dealer decided that the dealer was going to install the latest Pioneer or Sony radio, that would not be factory authorized and it would be incorrect and would cost you points.

[sambarn]

After achieving the Grand National First I want from the 27 Marmon restoration My father started and I am trying to finish, I will install the exhaust cut out whistle that hangs on the wall above the car and carpet over the rubber floor mats and a incorrect trunk. All of this for ME, the most important judge of the vehicle (IMHO) and to make her more tour friendly. Until recieving that award, she will wear the outfit she took home from the factory for the other judges of her merit.