BOLTS

[DAVE A]

I am in the final stages of my restoration of a 1950 Crosley Farm O Road. I have often been cautioned to remove all bolts with stress marks on the heads. According to the judging manual, this is not an issue unless the vehicle is earlier than 1946. Obviously, I can do this, but why??? Can someone explain??

[MCHinson]

Dave,

I know nothing almost about Crosleys. What did the original bolts look like? If they had markings, the bolts in the restored car should have the same markings. If the original bolts had no markings, then you should remove the markings.

[Guest Don29]

I am in the works of a 1929 olds most of the bolts do not have head stamp I have a small lathe that I will use to face off head stamp of all bolts that need to be replaced I will also use grade 8 as #2 and # 5 Could cause twist off problems later on. A bead blaster will finish the bolt head to look factory correct.

Regards,Don

[sambarn]

Recently lamenting the shrinking stock of old hardware, a friend recommended de-galvanizing after grinding off the stress marks by using muriatic acid. That it would leave the right natural steel finish. this of course was for the unpainted bolts. I always used the fine side of the large bench grinder to shear the stress marks, probably a more flawed method than a lathe but rather effective.

[DAVE A]

Don and Sam;

I have used both of these methods (which one depends on how much of a hurry I am in) , but the question still remains WHY should I?? The guidelines say 46, the car is a 50, it should be no problem.

Matt;

I would love to be able to say that I knew. Crosley was basically an "assembled" vehicle and as such used "hardware store" nuts and bolts. I don't know that there any "originals" left anywhere, and obviously restored cars are up to the inturpretation of the restorer. The "originals" on the car when I got it were so badly rusted that it was impossible to tell what they were. In one example there were 4 bolts holding a support for the top, one was phillips, one was a slotted pan head, one was a hex head with no markings and one was a hex head with markings. In addition, a number of portions of my car had to be purchased and recreated from other cars. I have looked at many different examples and every one is different. I am told that is the way they were from the factory, and obviously, there is no factory literature on what bolts were used, so all I have to go on is AACA guidelines, which brings me back to my original question.

[sambarn]

Most of my cars are brass and pre depression so its kind of a neccessary task for me. Are you saying that from the factory Crosley used four different bolts for a particular application at the factory? That has got to be tough to replicate!

[DAVE A]

Sam;

What I am saying is that the factory used whatever they had on any particular day with no regard to reason. If they were short on bolts they went out to the hardware store and bought some more for that day!! If a part that was to be on the car was not available, the car went out without it. Parts from other models were used on other cars, etc. I once had a conversation with a lady who worked in the factory and asked her why my Hotshot (the car I use as an avatar here) didn't have front fender vents and I had doccumentation from new on the car so it NEVER had them. She told me that probably there were no vent doors available that day so it went out without them. She also told me that the most terrifying days in the factory were when Powel Crosley came down on the production floor and would see a pile of parts not being used. He would ask why not and be told that they were not for the cars being built that day. Powel would disappear and return a short time later with an engineer in tow with orders to figure out how to use these parts on those cars. In fact if you look at a number of Hotshots regardless of year (49-52), you will see many that have the vestiges of a vent door in the rear fender (visible behind the seat on the inside). This is because, occasionally, when fenders were short, they hauled over some earlier front fenders from 46-48 sedans and used them on the rear of the roadsters (which is where that part of the design came from originally). I am told that the owners of the factory building were still finding parts and pieces from earlier cars stashed away in nooks and crannies for up to 10 years after the plant closing auction!!!

I think, in many ways, working on a Crosley may be like some of the aspects of working on very early auto. No 2 are the same!!!

Dave

[msmazcol]

Seems like here in the AACA we all beat our selves up looking for a level of perfection that probably did not exist.

We have just automatically removed stress markings off of the fasteners we use. I'm not a fan of re using any bolts that can easily be replaced. By taking a couple moments to clean off the markings it takes the variable out of the picture.

I loved the experiment a few years back where the Judging team judged a brand new Cadillac fresh off the floor. Some found flaws others saw the bigger picture.

No they are not perfect even when bad new.

[DAVE A]

I think you are correct. I comes down to " as it came from the factory" verses SHOULD or COULD have come from the factory. I know Powel Crosley would not appreciate the level of perfection we see in most of the cars on the show field at Crosley Nationals. He certainly did NOT believe in frills in his cars

[Shop Rat]

..... or COULD have come from the factory. .....

I think that "COULD have" kind of takes care of your Crosleys. I have read your posts with great interest and hope to see the Farm O Road soon.

[DAVE A]

Susan;

I haven't forgotten. See you in Charlotte (I hope,... haven't gotten a confirmation yet). If they do things the same as last year, I'll have my trailer parked on the lot next to the show field on the street side. Stop down...I'll probably still be desperately trying to finish it!!!

[R W Burgess]

Dave, if in fact some bolts were purchased from a hardware store, wouldn't it be accurate to say that, for the year in question, there were few stressed hardware bolts even available?

So, I'd say, go without stress markings to be safe.

Wayne

[DAVE A]

Wayne;

First of all, I hope everyone understands that I respect and have no argument with any AACA guidelines. I have the highest respect for the organization and the judges who represent it on the show field, and I appreciate all the advice and guidance I have been given. Your point is well taken, and may well be true, commerce was slower in 1946 than it is today, however, if , according to the guidelines, stress marks are unacceptable before 1946, and my car is a 50, why are stress marks on bolts on my car a problem??? Am I missing something??? This is my only question. By the way, based on recommendations, I am planning on replacing a lot of bolts already in the restoration, but it still doesn't make sense to me. By the way, I was also cautioned to remove Phillips heads and the guidelines on them is 1935!!

[Shop Rat]

Susan;

I haven't forgotten. See you in Charlotte (I hope,... haven't gotten a confirmation yet). If they do things the same as last year, I'll have my trailer parked on the lot next to the show field on the street side. Stop down...I'll probably still be desperately trying to finish it!!!

Dave, We plan to be there and for sure will look for you.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Dave,

Agree you have received many opinions. I suggest you contact our VP of Class Judging, Hulon McCraw for facts: hcmccraw@morrisbb.net

Regards,

Peter.

[MCHinson]

Peter,

Isn't Herb Oaks still VP of Class Judging? I think Hulon is VP of National Awards this year.

Herb's email address is herbfran@gibralter.net

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Peter,

Isn't Herb Oaks still VP of Class Judging? I think Hulon is VP of National Awards this year.

Herb's email address is herbfran@gibralter.net

Matt,

Thank you. Stand corrected. Using an I-phone.

My suggestion remains for Dave that he could be doing laborious bolt replacement for naught.

Regards,

Peter.

[DAVE A]

Thanks Peter;

I have disturbed Herb so many times during this restoration and he has been so helpful, I don't want to wear out my welcome. I've also had offers from a couple of folks locally who are judges to give it a once over and make more suggestions. It's just that I'm down to 2 weeks before Charlotte, and I have to finish the paint repairs tomorrowand give it Sunday to dry. I will spend most of next week putting things back together ending up with spending next Sunday with fellow AACA member Barry Seel putting in the wiring harness, installing the last few snaps on the top and making final touches. The following Monday and Tuesday, I have to be in Wash. DC. for a food regulatory conference. Back to work Wednesday then leave early Thur for Charlotte. Basically, I'm out of time to make any more changes so it will be where it is. What may be judged to be wrong will be wrong and hopefully it will be good enough. I'm looking forward to introducing a lot of people to another Crosley model that they may not have seen before. I've been collecting up my doccumentation to justify what I've done and I still have to organize it so it can be found quickly when asked for. I've actually also been making improvements on my DPC Crosley Hotshot. I've been considering having it reclassified in the future and going for a junior with it once I learn a bit more. Maybe next year!!

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Thanks Peter;

I have disturbed Herb so many times during this restoration and he has been so helpful, I don't want to wear out my welcome. I've also had offers from a couple of folks locally who are judges to give it a once over and make more suggestions. It's just that I'm down to 2 weeks before Charlotte, and I have to finish the paint repairs tomorrowand give it Sunday to dry. I will spend most of next week putting things back together ending up with spending next Sunday with fellow AACA member Barry Seel putting in the wiring harness, installing the last few snaps on the top and making final touches. The following Monday and Tuesday, I have to be in Wash. DC. for a food regulatory conference. Back to work Wednesday then leave early Thur for Charlotte. Basically, I'm out of time to make any more changes so it will be where it is. What may be judged to be wrong will be wrong and hopefully it will be good enough. I'm looking forward to introducing a lot of people to another Crosley model that they may not have seen before. I've been collecting up my doccumentation to justify what I've done and I still have to organize it so it can be found quickly when asked for. I've actually also been making improvements on my DPC Crosley Hotshot. I've been considering having it reclassified in the future and going for a junior with it once I learn a bit more. Maybe next year!!

Hi, Dave.

You are not wearing out your welcome. Our officers welcome any and all queries. Reference my error previously of noting Hulon instead of Herb may have come from an instance I had at the AGNM in New Bern. Hulon used my 1972 TR6 to investigate a late 1960's Triumph question about proper bolts after another participant challenged about correct bolts. My car has never been taken apart and remains the way it was since I bought it in 1972. The question in my case here was heat treated bolts used on the steering wheel shaft vs. non-heat treated body bolts in the engine compartment. To make it short turns out the other gents bolts were correct with the "on-site" comparison of my car to his. Hulon informed the gent his car was correct based upon this comparison.

As for Charlotte I would not worry if I were you. As you alluded your car is what it is at this late stage. Just keep referencing other similar vehicles at the meets you attend like Hulon did. Have a good trip and hope to meet you in person around the Reading, PA area one day.

Regards,

Peter.

[tbirdman]

I use a deburring wheel on my grinder to remove any marks on the bolt head. An added bonus is if you by stainless bolts, the deburring wheel mkes them shine like chrome. Much cheaper than buying chrome or polished stainless bolts. They do get hot though:)

[Peter J.Heizmann]

I use a deburring wheel on my grinder to remove any marks on the bolt head. An added bonus is if you by stainless bolts, the deburring wheel mkes them shine like chrome. Much cheaper than buying chrome or polished stainless bolts. They do get hot though:)

Hi, Ken.

I am sure they would look nice and shiny however not as they left the factory for judging purposes. That is why I want the original bolts that still have the heat treat and/or standard bolt markings. In the New Bern AGNM case I noted below the gent with the late 1960's Triumph could have received point deductions if he had removed the bolt markings.

Regards,

Peter.

[Guest Backyardmechanic]

Speaking of bolt heads I was told once that silver paint on the bolt heads were accepted as natual finish is that true?

Vern