Correct carb's when judging etc

[1937hd45]

You know, a PHOTO sure would be nice after all this chat. If this was on a Hot Rod website there would he a bunch of photos by now to illustrate and educate the readers.

[Guest windjamer]

Yes yes and yes, lets see some pics.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Bob, you are sure grouchy these days! This is not a hot rod site and maybe some of us antique guys don't know how to post a pciture! In any event, people made an honest attempt to helping the orginal poster which is what it is all about. A picture would not have changed one thing as all he wanted was advice.

I leaned something, I thought there were more Stearns-Knights left!

[West Peterson]

I learned something, I thought there were more Stearns-Knights left!

That's because you see so many in the AACA Museum!!! Thanks to Frank Stearns' daughter, Anne, and her husband Patterson.

[ted sweet]

seems that an owner of a popular/common car is subject to harder judging that an owner of a car the judges now little about?

[edinmass]

When the CCCA did it's last major judging overhaul, I had a seat at the back of the room, and also had a little input into the result. The overhaul in the judging rules was done by a hand full of long time CCCA members. Most were from the New England region, and they developed the accredited judging program as well. The judges handbook and instruction video were done by people who were professional handbook and video productions experts as well as long time CCCA members. I think it's fair to say that while no judging system is perfect, In my opinion the CCCA system is an extensive and fair system as that can be developed. With all that out of the way, now lets get to the non authentic carb issue. If a part is merely very expensive or hard to find, a deduction can and should be taken. In almost all instances it should be taken. HOWEVER, pot metal failure in combination with gasoline is very dangerous to life and limb, as well as the preservation of our cars. Zenith updraft carb's were reproduced for the Stutz's of the late 20's. As far as I can determine only two or three were made at a very large expense, and there were extensive running and performance issues with them. Most owners are now running uu2 and uur2 Strombergs that can suffer the same problems but are available in very good condition for 2 to 3 K per carb. They are correct era carb's and could be placed on the car when new. I know many people would immediately respond that nobody would have done such a thing from new. Currently in the building I share, a 28 Stutz is on the engine stand , and the owner has factory photos of the custom hot rod job done WHEN NEW with 4 windfields and custom intake and exhaust manifolds. On ANY limited production classic only a foolish man would think that ALL cars left the factory the same. While I cannot think of any other current instance of a substitution of a major part or component should not cause a deduction (I'm sure after this message someone will come up with one) dicast carb's replaced with another unit available when the car is new will get a pass by ME at the events I judge at. Electric fuel pumps, non authentic radial tires, electronic ignition, and incorrect era parts and accessories will not. Remember this is supposed to be a FUN hobby! I'm looking forward to the next comments...... :-) Ed.

CCCA Master Judge #24

[edinmass]

I'll try and post a photo of a Stromberg UU2 from 1929 and 30. 1931 would use a UUR-2.

[Shop Rat]

seems that an owner of a popular/common car is subject to harder judging that an owner of a car the judges now little about?

The Team Captain is supposed to ask for documentation on any items questioned by the team. If that means the whole vehicle then it is going to take awhile, but that is what documentation is for. An added bonus is that Team Captain and that judging team will walk away more prepared the next time they come across a vehicle like that one. Most owners that I have encountered are happy to share what they know about their vehicles with anyone willing to ask.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Ed, very thoughtful and good comments. I have been through the drive through judging at a CCCA region meet and was impressed although few (no one) knew my car because it was the only one that has surfaced to date. I wholeheartedly agree that substituting the correct part with another due to it being easier or cheaper is not what we try to accomplish in our restoring. Sometimes, you have no choice. If I knew for sure on my OWN car that a carburetor would fail, I would not run it under those circumstances. If the authenticity was an issue, I would put the correct carburetor on it for the couple of years showing it for awards and then put a carburetor on to drive it.

Ted, you are right. If the car is popular it is much easier for a judge to know. No one can ask a judge to know cars that have scant information available. They and the system do their best. It is this way in every club that has a judging system.

[carbking]

Steve - below is reproduced our standard reply when asked about some of these zinc alloy carburetors:

EARLY ZINC CASTINGS

The carburetor for which you are inquiring is one of a group of auto parts (carburetors, fuel pumps, door handles, generator back plates, etc.) made from a zinc alloy (“pot metal”, “white metal”, etc.) that is chemically unstable and therefore not useable. We once submitted a sample of this metal to a metalurgist who tested it and informed us that there was about 4 times the amount of lead in this mix as in the later (about 1935) mix. This material cracks with age and heat.

Carburetors which fall into this category include:

Schebler model U

Johnson model H and model R

Stromberg model T and model U

Tillotsons from 1923 through 1935

Zenith model 105

THERE ARE NO GOOD ORIGINALS LEFT IN OUR SOLAR SYSTEM!

We will NOT for any amount of money rebuild these carburetors.

While we do have some of these units for sale; they are sold with the understanding that the are NOT rebuildable, but may be used as patterns to have new castings made from aluminum, and then transfer other parts (shafts, jets, float, etc.).

Ed - I found your comments concerning the Stutz interesting. While I have no records of what aftermarket carburetor Stutz may have placed on their cars; I do have the factory Stromberg records. Stutz was a customer of Stromberg. There are no records of sales of UUR-2 carbs to Stutz. The first record of a Stromberg UUR-2 released by Stromberg FOR the Stutz (in other words, with a calibration specifically for Stutz) was in May of 1931. This was Stromberg number F-1186, and is designated by Stromberg as a replacement carburetor.

There is no doubt that a customer might have demanded an other than original carburetor, but how would one document such a change?

Several years ago, we looked at reproducing the UUR-2 carburetors. Since we have all of the original drawings and prints, we would not have had to "reinvent the wheel", just reproduce it. The quotations we received to do the bowl casting alone was into 7 figures! It is simply economically unfeasible to reproduce some items.

[1937hd45]

Thank you Ed! Seeing the UUR-2 brings back fond memories of selling them to the local Bugatti shop. I always felt bad for the White truck owners that also needed the same carburetor. This was a LONG time ago when $100.00 per carb was a killing.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Great info CarbKing! I know too well the problems on the Johnson carbs and don't know too many people running that carb (not using it on mine!)

I think the information your provided would be an interesting read for our Technical and Judging committees.

Thanks again..always good to hear from the experts.

[edinmass]

Peter, alas I have not directly answered your question from page one. I can only comment on the carb's I am familiar with. On your car I would install a Stromberg UUR2. A UU2 was available in 1929. Painted and plated correctly it would fool almost any judge unless he has owned or worked on your car. The UU2 and UUR2 look almost identical, and the UUR2 is a much better carb than the UU2. You can still get a decent amount of reproduction parts. New jets and large and small venturies are available. The Pierce 8 engine was 385 CID and 150 HP so I think it would be the best choice. Also so many people are running them advice as to set up would be easier to come by. The DV-32 Stutz down the road is making over 220 HP on the engine dine with the UUR2.:eek:

[Guest Peter Woyen]

Thank you for your reply and information. A couple of years ago I purchased a Stromberg UU2 at Hershey. We have one 2 barrel manifold we hope to use some day on a speedster project. The sedans that we are restoring have single barrel intake manifolds however. I'm very interested in the UUR2 idea. The performance you are talking about sounds fun. My UU2 has a cracked up air horn. Have they been reproduced? That portion of the carb must be zinc alloy.

We did find some brass bodied Zeniths that look very much like the Tillotsons. Zenith U6 is one of them. Dimentionally the same but lacking a high speed adjustment etc. Would work fine for idling on and off a show field and mild driving maybe. Perhaps inadaquate for tours and higher speeds though. Any thoughts on that? Additionally we have to be careful sizewise with the carb we choose as too much carb hanging off the back will hit the steering box. We are tempted to rebuild the Zeniths as they look very original other than being brass versus pot metal. What do you think?

Thanks, Peter

[Guest Peter Woyen]

Great info CarbKing! I know too well the problems on the Johnson carbs and don't know too many people running that carb (not using it on mine!)

I think the information your provided would be an interesting read for our Technical and Judging committees.

Thanks again..always good to hear from the experts.

Thank you Mr. Moskowitz for your input on the carb discussion. I also think the Carbkings info should be discussed by the judging committees. When the exact original part is no longer available or is unsafe to run, a period correct substitute should be allowed. I feel that it is a similar situation to safety glass being "required" not even just allowed when actually plate glass is what would be original. Plate glass shatters and is unsafe in your car. Potmetal Tillotson carbs (or the other carbs he mentioned) may be likewise unsafe and unuseable. Especially when considering the potential for leaking gas or fire hazard etc.

~Peter

[edinmass]

I thought the later cars like yours were 2 barrel. My guess is Carbking could give you better advice on a similar late 20's era single barrel. I have no doubt that the dual barrel manifold with a UUR2 would run like a dream. Was the 2 barrel stock on a 29 or a later style replacment?

[Guest Peter Woyen]

To clarify I'm not suggesting that zinc alloy carbs by any manufacturer be shunned from the showfield as plate glass has. However when parts are deemed unsafe or unstable from a safety standpoint I think suitable era correct parts should be an allowable substitute with no risk of points being taken when judging. I'd be tempted to carry the Carbkings comments with me on the showfield if the discussion ever arose. I'd even be willing to show the original Tillotson with the car but I sure don't want to try to install it and run the car with it. Thanks, Peter

[Guest Peter Woyen]

I thought the later cars like yours were 2 barrel. My guess is Carbking could give you better advice on a similar late 20's era single barrel. I have no doubt that the dual barrel manifold with a UUR2 would run like a dream. Was the 2 barrel stock on a 29 or a later style replacment?

The two barrel intake and carb were stock items in 1929. However they must have been optional equipment or maybe became a stock item very late in 1929 more for the 1930 sales year. We have a two barrel manifold and I know of one other. There may be more than that but it's a minute amount. I agree that the car would perform great with that UUR2. I'd love to do that. Almost worth casting another two barrel manifold!?!

[carbking]

When replacing a carburetor with another, many make the error of just trying to match up the mounting flange size. While this is obviously the first step, it does not insure that the carburetor will function properly on the engine.

The Zenith SV-6 mentioned by Peter has replaceable main venturii (several different sizes). The SV-6 was used as original equipment on engines from 197 CID to 792 CID (of course the 792 was a low-RPM industrial engine). The point here being that one should pick a carburetor used on a similar sized, similar type engine. Of course, if one is a machinest, new venturii and corresponding jets may be fabricated.

Not trying to blow my own horn, but have been working on a carburetor database now since 1967. This database gives carburetor type, and application information. It is published on our website for all to use. There is no sign on, no fees, the information is there free to all.

THE CARBURETOR SHOP

By the way, the UUR-2 was used on engines from 240 CID to 525 CID, so the same issue with the venturii is true of the UUR-2.

If Peter uses a single intake, my suggestion would be the Stromberg O-3 used on the Lincoln.

Zenith and Stromberg were both owned by Bendix Aviation. GENERALLY (there are obvious exceptions) Zeniths were used on trucks and industrial applications, while Strombergs were used on more passenger applications. There is more information available on retrofitting Strombergs than Zeniths, although the Zenith information does exist.

And, as Ed mentioned, quite a few repro parts for the UUR-2. We have been making parts for them for 35 years, and there are others who also make parts for them.

Jon.