Condition guide rating vs. BCA points / awards

[Thriller]

A post by Reatta Man in the Barrett-Jackson thread about cars being believed to be a higher rank in the 5 or 6 condition rating scale by sellers got me thinking.

What are your thoughts about comparing those scales to the 400 point / awards of the BCA? Would a #1 only be a Gold Senior car? Could a high Silver be a #2? I'd hate to think of a Bronze car being a #4.

I am of the opinion that there are relatively few #1 cars. Some cars are advertised with the BCA or AACA pedigree, so it can tell people where it fits into the general scheme of things.

It just made me ponder, and I'm not sure what exactly I think about it (I'm tired for one and haven't given it a lot of thought).

[gungeey]

I have a similar opinion, very few #1's. A pro restored car, or a new car at the dealership=2

Number ones are the over the top models with over the top restorations True museum pieces that are not drive but displayed as works of art.

EXAMPLE:

[Barney Eaton]

I can see why this might make an interesting discussion. But, I believe the BCA judging criteria has been "tweeked" over the years and it is a good system.

While the BCA wants to recognize cars, there would be areas of overlap and confusion.

The first example I find, within the BCA a car could score 400 points but might not be as pristien as Pebble Beach cars which are "over restored" and much nicer than they ever left the factory. BCA judges more to a as they felt the factory standard and anything over that just looks better but does not receive more points.

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Permit a very long time BCA member join this thread with a comment or two.

Let me start by noting that I actually was involved with building trucks for about 20 years, including actual assembly line supervisory responsibility from foreman to general superintendent. About 100,000 Scouts were directly included. I will also note that I am probably one of the BCA's better known members and am know to be a staunch "originalist". Before the modified guys yell, I will also state that I will give a really well-done modified a very thorough look to appreciate expert craftmanship.

All that being said, I'm stating from experience that most new cars are about a 1.5. As to the BCA standards, they would be by definition a 400 point car. I wouild tell my judging classes "I want you to imagine that you're standing on the sidewalk outside of Buick. The plant gate opens and out pops a new Buick. That's a 400 point car!!" They DO have imperfections!

I also think most of us have seen a early 40's Buick restored by Doug Seybold's shop. (If you haven't, you're missing a serious eye candy treat!) That's a condition 1 car. Every thing is exactly (even painfully) right. Based on what I know about factory standards and statistical distributions, in a million brand new Buicks, about 3 would actually make it to number 1.

Who would? Most cars costing above $250,000 new, where perfection of work is the norm and $5000 of extra hand labor isn't relevant to what the factory is trying to achieve. Also, as mass produced cars and methods improve, the number 1 becomes more likely but it's still rare even if you're "The New Class of World Class". (New Buick advertising slogan)

Regards, Dave Corbin

[BUICK RACER]

To Dave's point, my 7,000 mile '86 Grand National, Senior Award winner had points deducted for metal flake in the paint, it came from the factory that way!

I had 30+ years in and around every GM assembly plant in North America, including Canada and one in MX(I never made it to Ramos Arizpe, home of the Rednezvous, HHR, Fugly Aztec and a few more, tho!)

So I also have a hint of what goes on and went, but nobody listens, anyway! LOL!

[NTX5467]

Great comments Dave and Roberta! I don't know that you can really equate the "condition ratings" to "BCA 400 Point Judging" award levels. The "condition ratings" make no claims to originality and related correctness, just cosmetic issues and concerns (with a few mechanicals as you go down the scale). There might be some generalities, but nothing more, between a Condition 3 car being a BCA Bronze, for example, as some might consider an older original car as #3 but it might also score highly in the BCA judging due to the fact "it's real, unmolested, and correct", but with a little evidence that it's been on the road during its life. But then, considering the stories I've heard about BCA judges dinging cars for surface rust on exhaust pipes . . .

Just a few thoughts,

NTX5467

[Mr Riviera]

The BCA 400 pt. judgeing system is geared for fun and enjoyment for the most part . Cars are inspected by non-professionals , fellow Members and by those that enjoy the hobby . The term Number One is used by most when trying to put a value/condition on a car . One must remember that , as said before , most all cars when they rolled off the line at the factory were not number one cars . As an example , sheet metal fit , paint , trim and so on. I was a service writer for GM for a number of years and saw all the inperfections as the new owners would come in for warranty work - Corvette Owners were the worst !

[Larry Schramm]

Roberta,

You are so right about the metal flake in the paint. Being a service rep at the time for Buick when the Grand Nationals were being built & sold I inspected dozens of black Grand Nationals and there were very few if any that were perfect. Dave Corbin is correct in that there is no perfect vehicle coming off the line.

[BillMadden]

You better watch what you say about Corvette Owners 'old' fella'. And I don't care if it is true.

Anonymous in Alpine.

[Mr Riviera]

Go to sleep Bill !

[Guest sintid58]

I have been wondering what (if any?) classes to enter the car(s) I will be taking to this years national. If I take my Skylark it won't do well in the 400 point judging because it has a 4 barrel carb and road wheels added, that also eliminates it from the archival as well as the fact it has been painted and the other added features. It also won't do well in the modified because it really isn't modified enough to be a true modified car. It may not work in the driven because of the mods and I may add power brakes so that would disqualify it according to what I have read. My 55 has been painted (there goes archival) and is pretty nice but not near good enough to pass muster for a real show car, it will probably pass muster in the driven. My Riviera will have been painted by July and that disqualifies it for the archival class and I doubt very much if it will do well in the 400 point class. If I could even get a bronze or something it might make it worthwhile. The Riviera is very original but the paint is quite bad because it was driven a lot on gravel roads, no rust but lots of rock chips on the lower body and I am putting on the smaller fender skirts and when I paint them to match it will not look good. Basically I will be coming to Ames to enjoy Buick people, see lots of cars, and to enjoy driving mine and giving them some excersize. I may put the Riviera in the 400 point show just to see what happens. I already have my room at the Gateway see you there.

Edited January 30, 2010 by sintid58 (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

I was a service writer for GM for a number of years and saw all the inperfections as the new owners would come in for warranty work - Corvette Owners were the worst !

In the later 1970s and earlier 1980s, before Corvette production was moved to Bowling Green from the prior (and aged!) birthplace of the Corvette, there were far more paint issues than you might suspect, not including "gloss". With the 1978 Pace Car Corvettes, most of which had some level of warranty paint work on them, we got our Service Manager with the new owner to go over the car and look for paint issues AT the time of delivery . . . not two months later or when they came in for their first oil change. Z/28s were later added to that situation, too. When the Bowling Green plant came online, plus the switch to basecoat/clearcoat from the prior acrylic lacquer, the paint quality and finish improved so much you could easily tell 75' away that it was a Bowling Green-built Corvette. The earlier acrylic lacquer paint could not be buffed and/or polished enough to make it shine as the Bowling Green cars did as they rolled off of the transport.

During that same general time, GM seemingly could not produce a vehicle with soft bumper fascias whose color completely matched the sheet metal paint's color--the bumpers were usually one or two shades different, just enough to tell they didn't completely match. Some alluded this was due to the addition of the flex agent to the same paint as was used on the sheet metal. Interestingly, Ford and Chrysler had no similar issues. I saw these things "first hand" and "up close and personal".

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[HurstGN]

I have been wondering what (if any?) classes to enter the car(s) I will be taking to this years national. If I take my Skylark it won't do well in the 400 point judging because it has a 4 barrel carb and road wheels added, that also eliminates it from the archival as well as the fact it has been painted and the other added features. It also won't do well in the modified because it really isn't modified enough to be a true modified car. It may not work in the driven because of the mods and I may add power brakes so that would disqualify it according to what I have read. My 55 has been painted (there goes archival) and is pretty nice but not near good enough to pass muster for a real show car, it will probably pass muster in the driven. My Riviera will have been painted by July and that disqualifies it for the archival class and I doubt very much if it will do well in the 400 point class. If I could even get a bronze or something it might make it worthwhile. The Riviera is very original but the paint is quite bad because it was driven a lot on gravel roads, no rust but lots of rock chips on the lower body and I am putting on the smaller fender skirts and when I paint them to match it will not look good. Basically I will be coming to Ames to enjoy Buick people, see lots of cars, and to enjoy driving mine and giving them some excersize. I may put the Riviera in the 400 point show just to see what happens. I already have my room at the Gateway see you there.

This is the exact reason show classes need to be revisited in the club.

There should be a class targeted at the show car wanting to compete with the best of the best...400 point class sounds like the one here, but from reading, that's not the case.

There should be a class that is a step below full on show car class. The car may have a wart or two, but it's a real nice car and presents well.

Then a class similar to the "run what ya brung" class that racers use. A class to encompass all cars that were driven to the event, from daily drivers, to 20 footers, to weekend cruise cars. Something where points, trophies and that like are not material...a place to show a car, hang out, and maybe award a handful of awards based on participant voting for the "I really like this car, just because" kind of votes. If somebody gets recognized, it's a nice plus for the event. If some trophy hound wants to stuff the ballot box for a little recognition, so be it. But these awards are given on the show field, in person, to the owner, and there's not a big deal made of it.

And whatever other classes are deemed fit for an event....

Essentially, all the classes should be obvious by their name alone as to what kind of cars you expect to see in that class. This would make it easier for folks to narrow down what class they want to enter without having to read the rules of ALL the classes to find out where they belong, and where they WANT to participate.

Just my .02 - flame away.....

[NTX5467]

I concur, Dan, on the class name issue. Some might know what vehicle goes into "Class __" but it does little to define that class for the general spectator. Something like "1961-1963 Compact" or "1964-1967 Intermediate" or "1965-1970 Full Size" might be more appropriate, but harder to put on a small sign.

In the earlier years of the vehicle hobby, even 30 years ago, "nice" cars could be detailed to generally present well . . . especially the "low mileage, garage-kept" vehicle. I saw some Corvettes back then, deemed "daily driver", that looked like they either saw few "daily drives" or their owners spent weeks getting them cleaned up in preparation for the show. But everybody "went" for the shiney paint, over-restored cars (before we knew better!) and those became "the standard" everybody seemed to aim for.

With time, the quality of restorations has increased incrementally each year, since those earlier times. We also learned how to do "factory correct restorations", which generally started with the Corvette people, who paid attention to such things as stamp codes and inspection marks well in advance of other parts of the hobby. Other factory documentation of vehicle production (i.e., build manuals used to train production line employees) have been discovered and reproduced for many vehicles, too, which would detail the "aiming" of hose clamp towers, for example. So, we now know more about how to do things, to get the correct finishes, and more materials have come into the marketplace to support these things.

As the 400 Point System Judging is what the BCA has used for many years, as its ONLY critically-judged class, the prestige of it has increased with time--which is to be expected. As has the prestige of the Senior awards and such. So it used to be "all or nothing".

Adding the Archival Class was a good thing, to me, as it would recognize the "original with some wear" vehicles . . . whether the "wear" might be thinning paint from many years of using a cleaner wax, oxidation before the final cleaning and waxing, or thin as it didn't get a good coat in the factory spray booth (usually on the rocker panels, as my Dad's '69 Chevy pickup, which we still have, with primer bleeding through the Saddle metallic paint on the rocker panels) or the "wear" might be rock chips that were brush-touched-up, or similar.

To me, the original Driver's Class was supposed to address many of these "It's not a show car" comments, but the implementation and direction of this class has been somewhat problematic for some.

Therefore, I feel we have the basic architecture in place to let any Buick enthusiast bring a Buick to the meet and enter/show it in SOME capacity while at the event . . . other than in the parking lot (sometimes, the "parking lot show" is a pretty nice show at some car events!). With this basic architecture, we just need to make it work better, even if a few orientations might be different than what they currently are (for whatever reason). Consider these things as "continuous improvement" via "periodic evaluation of effectiveness and customer satisfaction".

To me, when the initial negative comments regarding the Driver's Class were voiced, somebody should have really heard them . . . LISTENED to them . . . rather than keep trying to re-state what the class was about to potential participants who had been shut-out of participation for various reasons. "Positives" should have come out of that class rather than "Negatives"--period . . . at least that's the way I see it.

The 400 Point Judging is what it is and will continue to be so, which is fine, as THEY are supposed to be the Best Buicks, whether fully and correctly restored or an incredible "barn find" that was cleaned and detailed. The quality and finesse will continue to increase, as they have been, in a "natural progression" of things. Just change the signage to accurately reflect what's parked in what area.

As for the "other" classes, they need to be "user friendly" and follow the class' "title" intents. "Archivals" are what they are and "Drivers" are also what they are, as are "Modifieds".

To me, it's all already there, we've just got to better utilize and harness the potential energy in making them work in a mutually beneficial and synergistic manner.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

Edited February 3, 2010 by NTX5467 (see edit history)