Avanti R2, 1963, refresh

[unimogjohn]

Al, I know what you mean.  Alice is worth every penny.  I am sure your help is also.

 

Went back to the garage and finished one side of the garage, six, ten foot soffet lengths are now all insulated and secure.  Only six more to go.  

[unimogjohn]

It's Saturday, December 5th, early PM.  Headed out to the garage early.  Decided to try to finish up fixing the insulation above the soffets.  I got about 3/4 of the way done when I ran out of the special sticky aluminum lined tape.  So I am done until i get more, which I did order yesterday.  

 

Here are a couple of pics so you can see the issue with the insulation.  In the first picture you can see the insulation pushed out, the second picture shows the insulation all taped down.  Without taping and sealing, the wind just pushes the insulation out and lets the cold air in.  

 

I also got the little WEN drill press.  Funny, all the tools I have are small.  I spent about 30 minutes assembling the drill.  Works good.  The drill was $63 including shipping from Home Depot. 

 

And a couple of days ago Alice wanted me to put up a platform for the birds.  So I put up a nice board to hold the plates of food she puts out for the birds each morning.  However, now we seem to have a problem.

Edited December 5, 2015 by unimogjohn (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

If the wind can get into the insulation there is probably not much insulation value when the wind blows.

 

Our usual problem with feeding the birds is rodents. They have plenty to time to study the problem and can defeat many clever things we do, eventually.

[unimogjohn]

Being on the farm we do have lots of critters including rodents.  But the cats seem to keep them in check.  They actually like to watch the birds, very rarely do they go after them.  The birds know they are there and stay out of reach.  We have lots of crows also, they get dry dog food.

 

Camaro Steve picked up his engine from Corvette Wayne and brought it over.  Safe and sound in the garage.  I can almost hear it run.  We are hoping for installation next Saturday.

[avantey]

OK John and other Avanti owners, I have a question.  After changing the timing back and forth a bit I figured out my timing was running quite advanced.  And Yes,it was because I never tightened the lock nut in the spring and the distributor finally loosened up.  However , regardless of where I moved the timing I could cannot get rid of the backfire problem. 

 

Doing a bit of research I think this is because the condenser may have failed.  The old condenser is a Delco Remy with 5 microfarads stamped on it.  I went to the local parts store where they actually list the Avanti (in four flavors of engine even!).  However none of their listings have a spec for the MF.  So my question is-

 

How important is this spec to the ignition system?  I understand a little electrical- farads or mf measure capacitance of the condenser but not how critical this is.  I know with 6 volts most stores carry a one size fits all condenser.

 

I did not try to set the timing with the backfiring but she smoothed out and ran up rpms very nicely when I retarded the timing quite a bit.  Just help me figure out this condenser spec and I think the old girl will be awesome again!

 

Thanks,

[Scotts_DG8]

Thanks Scott.  Will look them up.  BTW how is the van coming?  Quit for the winter?

The van had been moved to the back burnner for a bit so that other projects around the house could get done, hope to get back to it this spring summer. As far as TP Tool goes, they have a lot of info if you search it on how to choose a compressor, plumb for air, etc. and they have some pretty good sales and I'm pretty sure free shipping on compressors or at least they use to. Scott...

[RStrasser]

Avantey;

On the AEA tune up sheet for my Avanti they call for a part number P2-38 (IBB-2042SS-3) Condenser and rate it at .25-.28 MFD. I believe they are Prestolite part numbers.

I was told many years ago when I worked in a Automotive Electric shop as a teenager that if the MFD value is too high the pit will form on one of the two contacts and if too small the pit will form on the other.  I don't remember which is which.

I do know from experience that a open capacitor will result in a very weak spark and the car will not start.

Ron

[unimogjohn]

Bill, let us know how the condenser search goes, and if the Avanti runs better when you get the correct one in.

 

Monday, PM, December 7th.  Busy day, but little car or garage stuff.  I did stuff in some more insulation into the ridge vent, about half done.  I need to move cars around to get to the rest of it.   May move the Buick out of the third bay tomorrow and get another ten feet done.  

 

But I did get to install a little bin compartments next to my work bench.  Pretty good quality.  From Northern Tool and equipment.  Only $25 plus about $10 shipping.  Now to get stuff out of jars and cans and into the bins.  I am getting so organized.  

 

I also spent an hour or so working on the snow blower.  Getting it ready for snow season.  Last year I had a real hard time with it, would not go thru snow and I was struggling to make it work.  Now I know why.  One of the augers had a broken shear pin.  Just so happens that I have a dozen of them so put a new one in.  Put in some fuel and she started right up.  Let it run for ten minutes to let it get warmed up.

 

The rest of the day was spent doing farm stuff.  Buzzed up a couple of dead trees that I had knocked over with the Kubota a week ago.  Alice is happy, and they are now on the burn pile.

[avantey]

Well I have two condensers now.  AA got me one that was matched by car/engine but I do not have the MFD spec on it.   NAPA got me another one and went so far as to call the factory when their book did not have the spec.  Thanks to Ron Strasser above I knew what it is and the Echlin AL869 condenser is exactly matching at .25-.28mF.  I will put that one in and keep the AA part as stock but this may not happen until the wekend.  The Avanti is in the cold part of the garage and it is dark when I get home from work so I probably would not test it anyways after the install.  I really need to retire so that four letter word gets out of the way of the important stuff!

 

Stay tuned-

[avantey]

I have not worked on the Avanti yet- (had to watch Syracuse BB tonite!) but I do have another question for all you Avanti experts here.  As I said the other day it seems if I retard the spark it is going to run better.  However I can only retard it (turn distrib CCW) so much before the vacuum advance hose/fitting hits the bracket for the plug wire channel.  I do not remember this being a problem before the engine was pulled and I was not there when it came out (long story).  As I also said I have not put a timing light to her but I think I need to retard it a little more than the bracket allows.

 

If any of you have the shielding off the distributor area could you look if your car has the same positions of the bracket and vacuum advance?  In the pics the firewall is to the right in the first picture, to the top in the second, you are facing the passenger side looking towards the base of the distributor.  The bracket is the shiny metal to the right at the base of coil and the fitting/hose are next to it.  My car is an R1 but I do not think that matters on this issue.

 

   

 

 

Thank you,

[unimogjohn]

Bill, I pulled these pics from my files.  My distributor vacuum points to the carb, not the firewall.  I do not have the shielding on it as it is out of position for it to fit correctly.  Looks like your is hitting the firewall, 180 degrees from mine.  

 

Or am I just confused as to the position of your distributor?

 

And here is a link to the Studebaker Info site that discusses timing and limits.  http://www.studebaker-info.org/text3/timcurv.txt

Edited December 9, 2015 by unimogjohn (see edit history)

[unimogjohn]

It is Wednesday, December 8th, and we have a Greg report.

 

"Day after Pearl Harbor Day already?      

 

Things have been moving along here.   Nate has been coming by to help.  The other night he spent some time cleaning miscellaneous Overland parts.  Bead blasting,  wire wheeling and some primer.  Then he cleaned the aluminum hood former.   Looks like it needs some welding repair before it gets buffed.  Included in the pile were the two foot rest anchors.  One was bent. Being of cast brass,  we annealed and straightened.

       

While he was doing that I got in some Matheson time.   Lots of cast aluminum and bronze parts that need cleaning and burnishing.

  

And with this current trend of moderate temperatures,  I've been able to get in a few minutes with the maroon '63.   Avanti steering wheels are known to be prone to cracking and shrinking of the plastic.   This one also had some scratching and scraping going on when it was turned.   Pulled it off to find the brass horn disc was badly scored and torn.     Now is a good time to make repairs to both the cosmetics and function.  

 

Requiring some fresh epoxy for that steering wheel job,  I turned my attention to finishing the clutch release for the Overland car.  New throwout bearing rollers and axles,   got them installed and peened in place."

    

 

 

 

    

 

     

 

[avantey]

John- You are correct, my distributor vacuum points towards the firewall vs your pointing to the intake manifold.  If 12 o'clock is straight ahead, front of car yours is at 2 and mine is about 4-5 o'clock.  They are about 90 degrees different and your position eliminates my problem.  I checked with my friend who pulled the engine without me (part of the long story) and he never pulled the distributor so in theory it as always been in this 'zone' of position.  What I do not know is if the bracket position got changed during the reinstall.  Not sure what to do or if I even need to do anything without checking the timing with a light.

[Roger Zimmermann]

Bill, you can turn the distributor the way you want if you unplug and plug the wires to the correct position respective to the rotor. An example: if you turn the distributor by 45° conterclockwise, all wires from the distributor will have to go clockwise by one plot. I hope you can understand what I means; difficult to explain that in a foreign language!

[avantey]

Roger- Thanks, I understand what you're saying.  The physical problem that stops that is the vacuum advance hose nipple hitting that bracket.  I will have to properly check the timing and see if the distributor can work in the current position and go from there.  It's going to warm up here thru the weekend so I will get after this project in the next few days.

[Roger Zimmermann]

You are welcome! I did that when I was not able to correct the timing from on of my cars, the vacuum advance touched the firewall. The surprise I had is that the minimum position change for the distributor is 45° (360° divided by 8), which is a lot of travel.

[trimacar]

OK John, the Dodge was supposed to go back to Greg this week, and your rod and side curtains with it, but plans changed, so maybe next week!  Thanks for the loan.

 

Oh, and another thing, I wanted my 5000th post on the AACA forums to be on your thread.....thanks for keeping it going!

[unimogjohn]

Roger, thanks for the information on rotating the distributor.  I need to rotate mine just one spark plug over.  Now I think that I can do it.  

 

Still, Wednesday, PM.  Spent a couple of hours pushing more insulation into the ridge line of the roof.  Got about 56 feet of it done, have four feet to go.  I cannot finish that until I move out the cars on the four post lift.  They are in the way.  

 

I have all the parts sorted now by vehicle and in storage containers.  Most containers have found a place to live on the shelving.  I have the huge Taurus SHO containers to go, I have to find a wall space for them.  I also put up more wall brackets for tools and stuff.  I can honestly say that I am about done with organizing.  I still have some automobilia and books that I have to move over from the house.  I will post some pics when I get done.  

 

And Greg just send me a OMG moment from Andrew King, the expert vintage airplane pilot.  He knows his suff.

 

" Greg's comment: When parts fall off there's a bit more at stake in the aircraft biz......

From: Andrew King <baldeagle527@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2015 6:56 AM

 

Greg,   I'm on another trip right now, and another broken airplane. Didn't even get five miles and suddenly the whole airplane started shaking violently, thought I'd thrown a rod or something. Turned out the prop hub lock nut, the big spanner nut, had come off and gone through the prop. Nothing but houses and trees below, struggled back to the airport at Southbridge, Massachusetts. We drove five hours round trip to Rhinebeck last night and borrowed a prop, planning to head for Florida tomorrow.  I'll let you know when I get back.

Andrew

 

 

 

 

 

[SeventhSon]

Jay-sus, that'll drain the blood outta your face!

[pacerman]

It's appears to be a Kinner engine.  That would shake anything loose.  

[unimogjohn]

It is Friday, PM on December 11th.  Decided to pull the radiator of the 1923 McLaughlin Buick.  A couple of years ago I broke the neck off the radiator by cross threading the motometer.  I could still run the engine, but had to put in less water than optimum, and if I overfilled it the water would spray on the engine, cowling, etc.

 

It only took me about an hour and a half to get the radiator out of the car and released from the shroud.  It is all ready to head to the shop next week.  

 

I wanted to get it done as the big Allentown, PA National Buick show is in early July, and I want to be able to drive the car further than just a couple of miles.

 

Here are a few pics of the disassembly process.

 

 

  

[trimacar]

John, where are you taking it to get repaired?  The local Winchester radiator shop is back up and running, but I'm not sure that's the right place for it, guys are just a little new and Dickie the old timer not around much.

 

Careful and appropriate radiator repair is getting much more difficult to source....

[unimogjohn]

David, going to take it Dickies and try to assess if they can do the job or not.  It is not a complex repair.  Dickie rebuild the radiator a few years ago, and it is hold up quite well.  Maybe he will come out of retirement for me.  It will be a nice ride if nothing else.  

[trimacar]

As our mutual friend Rob has told me (after I somewhat complained about a $180+ bill for cleaning a gas tank on my '27 Dodge recently), there's a new reality at Dickie's.

 

Make sure they know exactly what you want.  Explain to them it's a no pressure system.  Do not let them paint it. It's not good old boys anymore.

 

Please come visit if you make a trip to Winchester, I need you to sign my garage door!

[avantey]

OK John, I am hijacking your thread again- but for an Avanti cause so I hope it's OK.  I am still on the problem from T-giving Day when I suddenly lost power, got hotter, started backfiring, etc.  Yesterday I removed/reset the coil bracket that was a problem, rotated the distributor to a position more like yours and reset the plug wires, put in the new condenser.  When I fired her back up it still ran like crap and was backfiring.  I played with moving the timing and found advancing it quite a bit helped a lot but not totally.  She revved up and down better but still occasionally backfired usually on the deceleration.  So I put the timing light on with it way advanced and was amazed.  The plate shows 0-24 degrees and I was somewhere in the 40 degree point, way off the top of the plate!

 

Now I retarded the spark back to 4 BTDC (the spec for an R1) and it barely stayed running- surging and falling, very rough, backfires, etc.  I moved it up to 12 degrees and it was better but still bad.  So now my diagnostics get weak.  Do I have the wires off one spot on the cap or has the distributor jumped a tooth?  (Remember I had left the lock down loose by accident in the spring)

 

Also I have read and re-read the shop manual and my set up looks nothing like their description.  Studebaker says the vacuum advance should point at 3 o'clock and when the gears mesh the rotor should be pointing at 11:30-1200 for No. 1 on the cap.  I have the VA at about 2 o'clock and No.1 is nearly above it at about 1:30 and it runs but better far advanced(40 degrees or so).

 

If I move all the wires one lug CCW (retard direction) isn't that is counter intuitive to the advance it seems to want now?  But it would put No.1 more near to where they say it should be relative to the VA (12 and 3).   Like I said my diagnostic skills get weak or am I overthinking this?

 

Any help appreciated here,

[Spinneyhill]

Sounds like you need to put the light away and do some static timing set-up now, without the distributor cap on. Then get the plug wires to line up with the static timing. It might be a trial and error fiddle if the distributor has shifted a tooth or more.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[RStrasser]

Aventry;

If as you say the Avanti was running good and then went to crap.  Something had to have happened. 

I don't believe the distributor could raise enough to jump a tooth with the clamp still in place.  Even though it was loose.

If as you say the timing light shows 40 degrees advance and if you retard the timing to the correct setting the engine runs worse. Hard as it is to believe I don't believe the timing is your problem.

The distributor does not care where the vacuum is pointing or where  #1 plug is.  If  the timing is correct,  The plugs wires are in the correct counter clockwise order; then the engine should run .  That assumes that the timing mark is correct in relation to number one cylinder 

I would remove the valve covers and see if everything is moving correctly as you crank over the engine. 

Ron

[avantey]

Spinneyhill- thanks for agreeing with my next step on timing.  That is what I want a helper for- to crank the engine until I can see the index mark line up with 0 degrees per the shop manual.

 

Ron- This is another thought direction I went limping home on Turkey Day- a valve train issue or head gasket.  I am not experienced enough to tell a stuck, burnt or whatever valve by the symptoms while driving.  On the way in the sudden temp rise, loss of power and backfire thru the exhaust made me think exhaust valve.  Is that a logical thought train?  The only problems with my logic were:

1.  that the power was not completely gone ( I could still climb to 60-65 if needed)

2.  The temp stayed steady at 170 as long I was around 45-50 mph

3.  The backfires were sporadic except for when back pressuring the engine in deceleration.  Then it backfired every time regardless of speed.

 

All of these characteristics were seen on the way home the next morning.  It has also had a garbled, ragged sound and some hesitation in the mid range (40-70) all summer  which I figured was bad timing.

 

I am going to do the static timing per the shop manual first since I have been in the timing so much.  That gives me a base point in that area.  Then I think a compression test is next to see what that reveals.   If that doesn't clear things up I will pull valve covers and proceed down that path.  I am trying to be orderly and logical on this but I am not a very good diagnostician.  It does not help that i am working 11 hour days the rest of the year or that the temp goes normal (read highs in the 30's and cold garage) at the end of this week.

 

Thanks for all your help guys,

Bill

[unimogjohn]

Bill, just another shot.  Steve's Camaro was acting similar to your Avanti.  Turned out to be a burned exhaust valve.  The cylinder had no or little compression.  So, have you done a compression test?

 

My update:  I did take the 1923 McLaughlin Buick radiator to the shop.  They said it would be 3 to 5 days.  Could not believe the shop transformation.  Before it was full of old radiators and related parts.  Now it is actually clean and organized.  Now can they just duplicate the work done by the former owner, Dickie.  BTW, he was at the shop "supervising".  We had a good talk, but he is done with full time working.  But cannot stay away from the shop as it has been his workplace all of his life.

[avantey]

Thanks John- I did not get out to the shop last night.  After working late and a couple of unexpected phone calls and a visitor it is suddenly 9 PM, too late for me to start in the shop.  I did have concern about the exhaust valves on the way home and a compression test is next on the list after setting the static timing. 

 

But my visitor brought a large tray Christmas cookies- Cookie Monster is happy!

[unimogjohn]

Wednesday, December 16th.  Got a call yesterday to say that the 1923's radiator was ready for pick-up.  So headed over the mountain this morning and retrieved it.  Looks good.  I will start the reassembly process tomorrow.  Have to do a little painting and clean-up before I put it in the car.  The cost was $85.

 

A neighbor came by this afternoon with his Yamaha WR450F off-road motorcycle.  It would only run on full choke.  So we pulled the carb to see what was up.  Lots of debris and varnish inside, so I cleaned everything and put on a new gasket.  Tomorrow we will put in back inside the bike to see if the cleaning of the jets and float bowl will make her run.

 

Camaro Steve's transmission is done and Corvette Wayne is picking it up tomorrow.  We are hoping to begin installation on Friday and hope to have it all done on Saturday.  Needless to say, Steve is really excited.   

Edited December 16, 2015 by unimogjohn (see edit history)

[unimogjohn]

It is Thursday, December 17th, PM.  I spent the morning assembling the 1923 McLaughlin Buick's radiator back in it shell and reinstalling the lacing which cushions the hood against the shell.  There was some rust starting to form at the bottom of the shell so put on some Eastwood rust eliminator.  I have just a little bit of cleaning to do on the front of the engine before I put it back into the car and then put the hood back on.

 

 

With that done and set aside, the neighbor's dropped by and we finished putting the carb back on the motorcycle.  About an hour later, he road off.  It started and ran just fine.  He was very happy.

 

Then Corvette Wayne stopped by with the rebuilt transmission for the Camaro.  Really looks nice.  The re-builder said that it was a mess inside with wrong springs, bent parts, etc.  He is going to come over tomorrow morning and we are going to start putting it all back together.  Steve has to work half a day so he will not make it over until the early afternoon.  Wayne thinks we will get it all done tomorrow.  I think that may be a bit optimistic, Saturday for sure.  

Edited December 17, 2015 by unimogjohn (see edit history)

[unimogjohn]

It's Friday, PM on December 18th.  What a good day.  Wayne and I started work on the Camaro about 10:30 AM and Steve joined us about 1 PM.  We worked until about 4:30, before we cleaned up and called it for the day.  Tomorrow we will meet at about 9 AM and hope to get the beast running.

 

We got the engine and tranny together, and put on the exhaust manifolds, plugs, fuel pump, etc.  Then Wayne ran into a problem, the dip stick tube broke off at the engine block.  We worked about two hours getting the broken end out.  Had to take off the oil pan to make sure that no debris got into the oil.  

 

Then we hoisted the engine and tranny into the engine bay, and after some fiddling, shoving, swearing, she dropped right onto the engine mounts.  She was home.  We spent a hour or so putting back on the driveline, engine mounting bolts and such.

 

Tomorrow we have the exhaust to hook up, mount the power steering and brake assemblies, alt and starter, radiator and the carb and distributor.  I hope we have enough time to do it all as we have Christmas parties to go to in the early evening.  On well, there is Sunday.

 

It was 37 degrees almost all day, but we were nice and comfy in the garage with the temperature set a 64.  

 

 

Edited December 18, 2015 by unimogjohn (see edit history)

[SeventhSon]

Nothing like a warm garage to work in when the wind is howling! John, are those stock factory headers? 

[unimogjohn]

Chris, the headers are Chevrolet licensed and approved reproductions.  Excellent quality, fit and finish.  

[unimogjohn]

It is Saturday PM on December 19th.  We all converged on the garage at 9 AM and worked until 2 PM before calling it a day.

 

Everything under the Camaro is done.  Starter, transmission cooling lines, exhaust pipe to manifold connections, and bell housing cover.  On top of the engine we mounted the distributor, water pump, power steering and various other little parts and brackets.  We did have some fitment and adjustments to make to various linkages and components until we were satisfied they were done correctly.  That activity took a bit more time than we anticipated.   

 

On Sunday we hope to have the engine running and Camaro Steve back on the road.  We have the following major installations to accomplish.  AC installation, alternator, radiator and shroud, battery.  Then it is just the matter of making the final electrical connections, filling the engine and radiator with coolant, putting in the initial fill of auto transmission fluid, and making the static adjustment of the distributor.  Then we plan on turning the key and hopefully the engine will roar to life.  

[unimogjohn]

Sunday, December 20th.  The boys are going to be over in a few minutes (9 AM) to hopefully finish the 1967 Camaro power plant rebuild.  Ran out this morning and turned up the heat to 60 degrees, it is 28 degrees outside.  Sure hope that we finish today, before the football games at 1 PM.

 

Here are a couple of pics of the engine as a result of the work done yesterday.  

 

 

[unimogjohn]

Still Saturday, but now PM.  Houston, we have lift off!  She runs!!!!!!!

 

We had the engine all buttoned up about noonish.  Did a final check and filled the radiator and engine with antifreeze.  Said our prayers and Wayne poured in just a little bit of fuel into the carb.  Steve hit the starter and she roared to life.  We ran it on high idle for about 20 minutes and then let it idle for maybe five minutes more.  Camaro Steve is so happy, he was jumping up and down and giving everyone the high fives.  We topped off the transmission fluid to the tranny and power steering.  And have called it a day to watch the football games.  

 

Only a couple of issues.  The distributor's vacuum advance unit is not working; and an exhaust leak, probably at the donut transition to the tail pipe.

 

Here are a couple of pics and videos of the very first start-up and the engine running at high idle.  

 

Edited December 20, 2015 by unimogjohn (see edit history)

[SeventhSon]

Nice job! She sounds smooth - not a missed beat! Well done!

[unimogjohn]

It is Monday, PM, December 21st.  Decided that I better do some Christmas shopping so that took the better part of the morning and early afternoon.  But I did spend some time with the Camaro.  

 

During the exhaust installation Steve forgot to bring over the brass nuts that are used on the exhaust where they attach to the manifolds.  So I got the car back up on the lift and installed them and also checked for tranny fluid leaks and the final fit and finish.  Found a little grounding strap that we did not install.  Will install that back on top of the intake manifold.  Otherwise, no leaks and everything looked great.

 

I have a question for the group on the age of tires.  Steve's tires are:

 

BF Goodridge, Radial T/A, P215 70R 14 96S M&S, and are also marked E4 028587

 

Question.  The date code is usually the last four numbers marked on the tires.  So was this tire made in 1987?  If so it is quite old for running at speed on the road.

 

PS  Update.  After reading tire information on the WWW.  Tires made from 2000 on have a four digit date code, two for the month and two for the year.  Prior to 2000 they used the last two number of the serial number.  So that would make these tire made in August of 1997.  Agree or disagree?

Edited December 21, 2015 by unimogjohn (see edit history)