GM, What the heck

[msmazcol]

My Wife and I had a weak moment and gave some thought to retiring our Suburban. Just for information sake I stopped at the local bow tie shop. GM has re-moved anything that looks like a mini van from their line up for 2009. We had considered an Uplander. Not anymore that is.

What the heck are they thinking?

Honda, Nissan I don't think so.

Suburban for another 150,000, maybe.

[Steve Braverman]

There is a reason behind that decision. Most GM mini-vans were less than stellar, and nobody bought them. There is a reason that the mini-van market is owned by Chrysler and Toyota. We love our 2007 Grand Caravan. The Sienna is nice, but nobody could touch the Dodge for value.

[Guest Xprefix28truck]

I am GM through and through. But I agree..IF I were going to own a mini van it would be a Caravan. Very reliable. But it's a Chrysler..So I don't own a mini van.

[Shop Rat]

One of the families that I baby-sit for bought a 2009 Grand Caravan last year and LOVE it. They have three kids, ages almost eight, just turned five and two years-four months. The kids all have their own areas and it sure cut down on the fighting between the two older kids (two boys).

We have what I call a micro-van, a 2003 PT Cruiser.

[Dave@Moon]

Minivans have a sadly undeserved image. People beleive that if they drive one they'll be seen as sexless, spineless, and dull. It was the success of SUV marketing that doomed the minivan.

In reality, they are highly reliable and practical vehicles with no real drawbacks. They are responsible transportation for people who need a lot of cargo or passenger capacity. It's a sad comment on us that needless weight and unused off-road prowess in far less efficient and far, far less practical vehicles took over from minivans.

Sadly the GM and Ford minivans were demonstrably inferior to Chrysler, Honda, and Toyota's versions. (The GM minivans in particular show up on the <span style="font-style: italic">"Avoid Like the Plague"</span> list of every used car guide!) Even Nissan has a pretty good minivan, that's probably in it's last year due to low sales. VW now sells a Chrysler clone, and Hyundai sells their Hyundai and Kia branded versions of a cheap and dubious quality minivan. That's it for the whole market right now.

(BTW, Chrysler's minvans have taken a recent precipitous drop in reliablility surveys, and now rank roughly even with the Korean versions.)

Toyota and Honda are selling minivans in fair numbers, largely because their clientelle is less susceptable to the kind of macho bullcrap that's dooming American minivans. Chrysler's minivans are holding their own, barely. Hyundai's bargain barrel minivans are selling like hotcakes, one of the very few models actually increasing in sales over 2008 (at least in the Kia Sedona's case).

2009 Consumer Guide Minivan Guide

[Rawja]

I've had four of 'em so far two '93s and two '96s and I'm presently shopping for another as mine was hit.

Their plastic bodywork made them especially well-suited for banging around NYC (no dents, scratches don't rust) and I loved and still love the styling.

There is nothing more useful than a minivan, period.

I have to laugh when I hear friends of mine complain about their gas-guzzling Suburban that they haul the kiddies around in for errands. I tell the wife you need a minivan, the response: "We're not minivan people" OK then, let's see:

Married couple with three kids under 6? Check!

House in the 'burbs? Check!

Nothing to tow? Check!

Stay at home mom? Check!

Never off-road? Check!

No of course not dear, clearly you're not "minivan people".

[Guest Skyking]

2009 Consumer Guide Minivan Guide

I love their (CR's) report on how the Honda & Toyota are sportier than the Dodge or Chryslers......... God, don't they ever give up!!! It's a mini-van!

[OldsDoug]

I, too, have had _several_ weak moments recently, figuring that there should be some sensational deals out there. (In fact, a friend did get a _tremendous_ deal on a beautiful Buick Lucerne, more on that later.) So, started shopping online. First I looked at a Chevrolet Trailblazer as a replacement for the 2000 Tahoe. No V8 power, but that doesn't matter because they've quit making the things anyway. So at least I didn't need to look at the GMC equivalent. Actually, before that, how about a station wagon? What's that? Maybe a sedan? No V8 rear-drive passenger car (unless maybe some of the Cadillacs are, but I'm not ready for a Cadillac yet for various reasons). A few weeks later, a look at a new Tahoe. Apparently you can't get the base version, which has everything I need and nothing I don't want, in red. The rest of the colors are drek. Options are packaged together - I specifically don't want, and don't want to pay for, remote starting. A look in dealer inventories shows all high-line models. Same thing for GMC and Suburbans. The Buick Lucernes and LaCrosses that the local dealers have in stock are all loaded too, and the same awful colors... how about a white car with a red interior? Not for the last 15 years or so. No wonder they can't sell anything. Goodbye. I have 5 cars now and am at the age where they will probably last me until I go to the junkyard myself. I hope.

Footnote: As nearly as I can determine, Chrysler Corp. has closed _all_ of its local dealers. And I live in the suburbs of Washington DC, the Nation's Capital (for better or worse), so it's not like this is a rural or remote area. Let's fantasize and say that I'm interested in a new Chrysler vehicle - where do I go to buy one if they have no stores here? (I guess I take it back to the same place for warranty work when the transmission falls out of it at 8000 miles...)

[bhclark]

I went through 3 1990s models of Chrysler/Dodge minivans....overall reliability was fine, with the exception of the occasion water pump or similar, but every time I took them in for an oil change or tires, brakes were gone, motor mount was broken, tie rod needed replaced, cv boots were torn, etc, etc, etc.

I'm happy with my Korean (Kia) Minivan....not an ounce of trouble in 60,000 miles so far. Also love my Hyundai Sonata....haven't had a single problem with that either at 50,000 miles...brakes lasted longer on both than on any previous american car I've owned.

Until Buick makes a $20,000 car that I'm willing to buy (Love the Lucerne), I'm sticking with Korea.

Lately though, I've been putting more trouble free miles on my '69 Electra than anything else in my stable!

[Guest Trunk Rack]

[quote name=Dave@Moon;661426.)

Toyota and Honda are selling minivans in fair numbers' date=' largely because their clientelle is less susceptable to the kind of macho bullcrap that's dooming American minivans. ]

I disagree. Toyota, Honda, Suburu, and now Nissan ( with their recent announcement of their new multi-million dollar plant in Tennessee, and design/engineering facility in California) are selling cars because they are HIGH QUALITY, RELIABLE AMERICAN CARS ! Built with American labor, sourced with AMERICAN made parts. Yes, go to the dealerships and look at the stickers as to "content". You can WISH GMC, Chrysler, and Ford were American products, but they are not.

The last General Motors vehicle I bought (2001) was a truck, a 6500 series. THOUGHT I was being patriotic by supporting AMERICAN capitalism. When I crawled underneath it to service it, found out the TRUTH. General Motors, Chrysler, and to a lesser extent, FORD, are made from FOREIGN JUNK. There is a reason why the consumer test magazine surverys show that FOREIGN JUNK has so much lower a reliability and "customer satisfaction" indix than AMERICAN cars.

[Guest Skyking]

they are HIGH QUALITY, RELIABLE AMERICAN CARS ! QUOTE]

You can kid yourself all you want, they'll never, ever be American cars!!!

[R W Burgess]

"You can kid yourself all you want, they'll never, ever be American cars......!!! "

......AGAIN, you should have added Sky, since in the early days, pretty much everything was made in the states.

Wayne

[Guest Skyking]

Wayne, why bother, it's the new thing in America now and people just believe it including our politicians. Shame...........

[Dave@Moon]

I love their (CR's) report on how the Honda & Toyota are sportier than the Dodge or Chryslers......... God, don't they ever give up!!! It's a mini-van!

Bob, that link is to Consumer Guide (the publisher of many items, not the least of which is Collectible Automobile magazine), which is not affiliated with or anything like Consumer Reports or Consumers Union.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Dave@Moon (see edit history)

[Guest Skyking]

Dave, it doesn't matter, it's all the same journalism only with different people. Let's make the imports look better and keep kicking GM, Ford and Chrysler down to the bottom. It's a matter of time for the 3 anyway no matter how we all look at it, right or wrong........

[Guest Trunk Rack]

. . . let's make the imports look better and keep kicking GM, Ford and Chrysler down to the bottom. It's a matter of time for the 3 anyway ........

1) "kicking GM etc.." ? I think you are confused as to who is running GM, Ford, and Chrysler. We car buyers are not. The "Harvard Business School" / Wharton School Of Finance types are.

And they know EXACTLY what they are doing. The fastest way to make a quick buck is what they are trained to do. They HATE the automobile business. Which explains why they put so much effort into getting rid of it. Off-shore it, close down research, development, and quality departments. Skim off capital that would otherwise go to product improvement, to feed the great "perks" and benefits/salaries etc. for the "big shots". Make deals with big labor so as to rip off as much capital as possible.

This is not exactly rocket science. Packard and Studebaker provided the "model" for this fifty years ago. I recall when Packard wanted some "dream cars" for auto shows, they no longer had "in house" facilities to do this - decided to "off-shore" that.

In the business section of our newspaper the other day, it was reported that NISSAN has spent BILLIONS building a new factory in the United States, and is also setting up engineering and design labs here. Copying the business model of Toyota, Honda and Suburu, all of whom have found they can make BETTER cars here in the United States, with U.S. labor and U.S. made parts.

Some of you want very badly to believe that GM, Ford, and Chrysler are AMERICAN companies and thus should be supported, both by buying their products, and giving them AMEERICAN taxpayer support. Others KNOW the truth, and want to be part of the rip-off.

Suggest AMERICAN patriots go to your local HONDA, TOYOTA, or Suburu dealer ( and shortly NISSAN) and find out WHERE the products are made, by whom, and where the parts come from. THEY are American cars. True, after paying AMERICAN labor and AMERICAN parts suppliers, what profit is left does go back to Japan.

BUY AMERICAN ( and to hell with GM, Ford, and Chrysler )

[Guest Skyking]

..........as I said, they'll NEVER be American cars.......Period!

[RonHeberle]

I am on my third Chevy Astro van which GM quit making in 2005. My wife loved those mini-vans. The first one I believe was an 86 which had over 150K miles when the 1995 was purchased with all wheel drive and extended body. This one was upgraded to the 2005 becasue that was the last year of production. It also had over 100K as well. I drove many Chrysler mini vans which are good however they can not tow like the Chevy Astro. GM did not quit making them becasue my family did not buy them. I guess it is all in what you like or need. Our 2005 is still going strong and we will just keep it until it dies becasue we can not get another one. I would consider a Chrylser but definitely noneof the others mentioned.

[OldsDoug]

Toyota, Honda, Suburu, and now Nissan ( with their recent announcement of their new multi-million dollar plant in Tennessee, and design/engineering facility in California) are selling cars because they are HIGH QUALITY, RELIABLE AMERICAN CARS!

(Emphasis added.)

As far as I know, Toyota, Honda, Subaru and Nissan are and have always been Japanese companies... when did that change?

[msmazcol]

OK now I'm really messed up. The import car builders are building plants in this country. Wasn't the idea of building cars in other countries not in part due to cheaper labor and easier exploited auto workers?

It would appear to me perhaps the foreign car workers took their knocks from the beginning. Now it is the American auto workers turn for some underpayment and exploitation.

Lets all just sing a song of happiness and harmony now.

[Guest Skyking]

(Emphasis added.)

As far as I know, Toyota, Honda, Subaru and Nissan are and have always been Japanese companies... when did that change?

It didn't Doug, but unfortunately some people here think otherwise .............:confused: Sad indeed!

[Reatta Man]

Trunk Rack,

With all that is going on, it is easy to understand your frustration. However, your arguement that money for product improvement and quality departments is hard to sustain when GM is building some of the very best cars in the last 6-8 years that they have EVER built, and often match or beat their foreign competitors.

As for going to Honda, Nissan or Toyota, that is also hard to justify, when many GM and Ford models are equal to or better than their foreign competitors. And, if you wish to look at foreign, Hyundai is starting to soar above virtually all of the Japanese brands.

Now if you want to talk about what the government is doing to GM and Chrysler, that is another story......

[Dave@Moon]

As far as I know, Toyota, Honda, Subaru and Nissan are and have always been Japanese companies... when did that change?

Well, it might have been when GM aquired 20% of Subaru (since sold off). It might have been when Nissan was essentially taken over by Renault, who currently "owns" 44.3% of Nissan. Of course Nissan owns 15% of Renault, so I guess you have to do the math.

The fact is ALL of these companies are publicly traded corporations. You and I (whether we're Americans or Maldive Island natives) can buy as many shares of each we want. Are you invested in the Vanguard International Stock Fund? At least as of 2 years ago this major U.S. investment firm's stock portfolio listed Toyota as their #1 holding and Honda as their #4 holding. Fideltiy, et al also own major chunks of these corporations, meaning that just the institutional holdings in the U.S amount to billion$ of dollar$, with many million$ of profit$ staying within these shores.

And all of that is to say nothing of the major investments in the U.S. by all parties to build the cars here, which generates WAY more local revenue than the measily 2-3% profit margin most cars bring their builders.

The very idea that corporations are tied to individual countries of origin is a totally antiquated concept these days. Trying to tie that in with defining vehicle purchase as some sort of charity drive for "home" companies is just plain simple-minded. It's simply NOT 1939 any more, an era more removed from today than the pre-Civil War era was removed from 1939.

If a company builds an affordable quality car you want, buy it. Do so with the idea that you'll have to live it with under conditions that will change in the coming decade. If you're concerned about where the profits are going, buy the stock as well. Then you're getting it!

Edited June 30, 2009 by Dave@Moon (see edit history)

[Dave@Moon]

BTW, for the people whining about "the government" (insert spooky music here) "doing things" to GM and Chrysler, try to remember one thing.

Without the government involvement we've seen this year there would be no GM or Chrysler right now. Those horrible "foriegn" corporations you're fretting over would be fighting over the bits and pieces like so many closed Circut City stores.

[Guest Trunk Rack]

. . . . . . major investments in the U.S. by all parties to build the cars here, which generates WAY more local revenue than the measily 2-3% profit margin most cars bring their builders.

The very idea that corporations are tied to individual countries of origin is a totally antiquated concept these days. Trying to tie that in with defining vehicle purchase as some sort of charity drive for "home" companies is just plain simple-minded. It's simply NOT 1939 any more, an era more removed from today than the pre-Civil War era was removed from 1939.

If a company builds an affordable quality car you want, buy it. Do so with the idea that you'll have to live it with under conditions that will change in the coming decade. If you're concerned about where the profits are going, buy the stock as well. Then you're getting it!

BRILLIANT POST ! Hope people will read your excellent analysis, and follow your recommendation. As good as your post is, I would suggest discussing why those who are happy with what GM has done, should buy Buicks !

Those who think GM is an "American" manufacturer should be happy with their new Buicks. Buick WAS building cars in North America ( Buick hasnt been an American car for some years now; was built in Canada, of all kinds of foreign parts) GM is using YOUR tax money to build an incredibly vast and expensive factory in CHINA where Buicks are already made from CHINESE sourced parts.

Sad irony. The Packard Motor Car Company used to advertise the value of its REPUTATION for a good buy for the dollar, until the "Wharton School Of Finance Types" took over, and trashed Packard's reputation with an ever decreasing build-quality until they were laughed out of business. GM, on the other hand, as one post in here notes, MAY have gotten the message, as SOME of its cars built in the last few years most certainly ARE coming WAY up in both "build-quality" amd reliability.

Whether GM's new dedication to build quality will work, depends on how accurate the warning Packard's early advertising writers gave. In its glory years, Packard noted what a "cruel master" a GOOD reputation is - Work hard to KEEP IT, because once you lose it, hard if not impossible to get back.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Trunk Rack (see edit history)

[Guest Skyking]

BTW, for the people whining about "the government" (insert spooky music here) "doing things" to GM and Chrysler, try to remember one thing.

Without the government involvement we've seen this year there would be no GM or Chrysler right now. Those horrible "foriegn" corporations you're fretting over would be fighting over the bits and pieces like so many closed Circut City stores.

Dave, also remember, GM Ford & Chrysler wouldn't be in a mess if all the closed door deals from Japan never happened. Don't think for one minute that these politicians did all this wheeling & dealings from the bottom of their good hearts. Alot of money changed hands for getting these cars & trucks here...................alot. They sold us all out.

[Guest Trunk Rack]

Dave, also remember, GM Ford & Chrysler wouldn't be in a mess if all the closed door deals from Japan never happened.

I DISAGREE. THERE WERE NO JAPANESE IN THE DECISION-MAKING PROCESS OF THESE SO CALLED "AMERICAN" COMPANIES WHEN THEY DECIDED TO REDUCE QUALITY, ENCOURAGE THEIR MANAGERS TO BE ANTI-CAR PEOPLE FROM THE BUSINESS SCHOOLS, AND THEN OFF-SHORE JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING.

REMEMBER, THE "FAT CATS" WHO RUINED THESE COMPANIES WERE AND ARE NOT IN A MESS. THRU CAREFULLY DESIGNED BUSINESS MODELS, THEY HAVE 'GUTTED' THE PRODUCTIVE INDUSTRY, SO THEY COULD HAVE THEIR HIGH SALARIES AND 'PERKS'. BOTTOM LINE, THE JAPANESE DIDNT DO THIS TO US. FELLOW 'AMERICANS' DID.

Don't think for one minute that these politicians did all this wheeling & dealings from the bottom of their good hearts. Alot of money changed hands for getting these cars & trucks here...................alot. They sold us all out.

AGREED. 'SELLING OUT' THE TAXPAYER / CONSUMER IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT. HOW DO YOU LIKE THE FACT THAT YOUR TAX MONEY IS BEING USED TO HELP GENERAL MOTORS FURTHER "off shore" ITS OPERATIONS TO CHINA. AND, TO BE FAIR, IT ISNT JUST THE 'FAT CATS' IN THE AUTO INDUSTRY. GO INTO A WAL-MART AND LOOK AT THE NAME BRANDS. FAMOUS AMERICAN NAMES. NOW LOOK AT WHERE THE PRODUCTS ARE ACTUALLY PRODUCED. NOW THESE 'FAMOUS AMERICAN NAME BRANDS' NEED ONLY HAVE A SECRETARY TO PROCESS THE ROYALTY CHECKS FROM THE OVERSEAS COMPANIES THAT ACTUALLY MAKE THE GOODS.

BOTTOM LINE - NEXT TIME YOU NEED A NEW CAR, BUY AMERICAN. SUPPORT AMERICAN ENGINEERS, AMERICAN PARTS SUPPLIERS, AMERICAN DESIGN TEAMS, AND AMERICAN AUTO FACTORY WORKERS. PLENTY OF AMERICAN-MADE CARS TO CHOOSE FROM. TOYOTA..HONDA..SUBURU, AND, SHORTLY..NISSAN...!

Edited June 30, 2009 by Trunk Rack (see edit history)

[Guest Skyking]

BOTTOM LINE - NEXT TIME YOU NEED A NEW CAR, BUY AMERICAN. SUPPORT AMERICAN ENGINEERS, AMERICAN PARTS SUPPLIERS, AMERICAN DESIGN TEAMS, AND AMERICAN AUTO FACTORY WORKERS. PLENTY OF AMERICAN-MADE CARS TO CHOOSE FROM. TOYOTA..HONDA..SUBURU, AND, SHORTLY..NISSAN...!

I'll walk first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dave@Moon]

I'll walk first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

O.K. Shoes are almost exclusively a Chinese commodity these days, but if that's what you prefer.....

[Guest Skyking]

O.K. Shoes are almost exclusively a Chinese commodity these days, but if that's what you prefer.....

:rolleyes:.....................that's OK Dave, they're alot less money.