This is taking "Custom" too far...

[BadgerRivFan]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1971-Buick-Riviera-Boat-Tail-Hi-Riser-Donk-30-Wheels_W0QQitemZ270399583676QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item3ef51235bc&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A317%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1308

As more of a "purist," my preference is for a stock classic Riviera vs. a custom car. I do however appreciate the vision, skill, and artistry that goes into creating a custom car and have seen several really cool Riviera customs. Although I may not necessarily be attracted to a custom, I believe that each owner has the right to modify their vehicle to whatever suits their particular taste in cars. As an ROA member, I enjoy seeing custom and modified cars at ROA and BCA events and applaud the creativity that goes into building them.

This "donk" stuff however really escapes me. I don't get it. When I see a Riviera treated this way it kind of turns my stomach. There is a line that gets crossed somewhere along the way, but I don't really know how to define it. This might be opening a can of worms... but I am interested in your comments...

(Sorry I can't ever seem to get the links to post correctly. Please copy and paste the above into your browser to view.)

[Guest palosfv3]

Please dont get the proper definition of a "Kustom" mixed up with this mess. Customizing should enhance the lines/form of the original design. Restraint is one of hallmarks of the great customs of the past. Most people modifing cars figure the more work and money the better. Sadly that outlook results in what you have found.

[tim63riv]

Al,

Most of the things done to this car can be undone, so the car isn't lost to a future restorer. I think there a place for a car like this as extreme as we may feel it is. I remember putting headers and Cragar SS's on Camaros and Chevelles, removing pollution control devices and swapping out factory intakes and carbs for aftermarket. Today restorers spend thousands of dollars to put back on what I took off! To each their own, that guy has more money in paint materials than I have in my Black 63!

My 2 cents,

Tim

[RivNut]

I think my 4 year old grandson might pick out something like this if he could see it in 1:43 scale. Hopefully when he turns 5 his tastes will have matured. I think that Tim is right-on when he talks about money invested to get it like this. But, if the owner is out to impress a bunch of teeny bopper girls, he may have achieved his goal.

If I do my math correctly, his wheels are larger in diameter than my wheels and tires combined. At least he'll be able to get out of town if the levee doesn't hold.

Ed

[tim63riv]

Ed and Al,

There was a guy by the name of Rick Dobertin, I believe, who set out to build the most radical "Pro Street" car ever assembled, a Pontiac J 2000. It had wild paint, over-the-top mechanicals and superb engineering; it literally killed the "Pro Street" movement because it was going to cost HUGE money to even equal it, let alone better it!

I think these guys will try to "out Donk" themselves until someone gets 747 landing gear tires and wheels under his Caprice and the front and rear tires rub against each other! A return to more mainstream modifications will result.

Tim

[Guest REX STALLION]

I have always been a fan of Customs and have always modified all my vehicles to some extent as I can`t seem to leave well enough alone. I draw the line at the oversize wheel /super low profile tire thing. (i`m more into wide white walls and spider caps) Donks don`t do a thing for me. If thumbing their noses at traditional Customs and Restorers,was the goal,I think they scored

[Guest 40series]

Plain and simple tasteless garbage and a waste of a good car. It is just another way that the "gangstas" go out of their way to stick out and be seen and then wonder why they are frowned upon. Heres a pic of the "DORK"

[sosuzguy]

Yeah what a waste - I'd rather watch all mine burn then sell them and see them turn into this.

[Bill Stoneberg]

Heres a question for you all...

Where do you draw the line ? Jayson, you say you would rather burn your cars, what if he was like Tim ( and me) with Cragers and headers ? Would you still burn your car ?

What if he wanted to join the ROA or your chapter, would you say no, or would you take his money ?

You have to look at the car above as the future of where clubs may be going. You may not like it but if they are not accepted clubs will die. I see membership in the clubs I belong to slowly shrinking as members pass and as the old cars go elsewhere.

My opinions but I see too many of these kind of cars to write it off as a passing fad.

[sosuzguy]

I'm only saying I'd be selective in who I sold one of mine to. I'm even selective in who I sale my daily drivers too.

[tim63riv]

Good points, Bill!

I think that we have to keep an open mind about the cars we let into all car clubs, as none of them are growing and most are shrinking! Where is the line on "appropriate vehicle modifications"? Wheels and tires? Easily changed back. Someone SBC the thing? That can be fixed, too. Custom paint and interior? More costly, but can be put back to stock.

I certainly don't have a "Donk" in my future, but I do have a story.

A guy that lives 6 houses over from me runs a sevice station in St. Paul, MN and is always having cars "follow him home"! He got a 1978 Anniversary Riviera and put it up for sale for $2000. Sat for a YEAR, no takers on a decent car. He Sprayed it a god-awful green, put stupid big tires and wheels on and priced it at $5000. It sold in ONE weekend! Would the new owner be welcomed in the ROA? If not, where are the future members going to come from? I don't think burning our cars is going stop or modifiy the behavior of the Donk drivers out there.

As much as I'd like to make sure my cars are preserved for future generations, I'm too much of a capitaist to be overly picky about who the new owner of my Riviera might be!

More 2 cents,

Tim

[sosuzguy]

Your exactly right Tim, everyone is welcome in the ROA, however there is a difference between something tastefully done and the big elephant in traffic next to you.

[jimtash]

People who own cars like the Donk aren't going to join the ROA. They have no need to keep the car original nor do they look at them as what they truly are and that's rolling antiques to be taken care of and passed on. Plus they don't keep the cars over long periods of time so they get sold off to others who are just getting into the Donk scene.

The ROA doesn't actively promote modifying these cars beyond basic safety and comfort standards which can be both a good and bad thing. It's good that there's so much material out there to keep our cars running and as factory original as possible. But it says a lot when there is no standard reference anywhere on such a minor thing as custom wheels or modifying them for aftermarket radios. And that's because the majority of the members don't really do that sort of thing to their cars. I'm not putting the ROA down, but I am saying that people who do mod their cars won't come here for references or advice. Some of the replies here are also indicative of why as well.

[steelman]

Jim Tash, I couldn't disagree more. I have a modified car and the reasons you stated are exactly why I am here. To seek help and advise from the guys that know these cars inside and out. I know modified cars are not the focus of this group, but I would like to say thank you for not excluding those of us who do not chose to own 100% box stock cars.

Steve Owens

Oklahoma City

63 Riviera

[RivNut]

Mr. Ash,

I agree whole heartedly with Steve, Jayson, and Tim as to whose cars are and whose cars are not welcome in the ROA. When you attend one of the ROA annual events, you'll be amazed at what kind of audience the modified and custom Rivieras attract. Buick came up with the basic design, but they had to make it appeal to the masses, not to each individual (other than color and options.) Modifying or customizing lets the owner express his/her own tastes and desires. If nothing else, the workmanship alone is worth admiring, whether or not you agree with the style.

You're probably correct in stating that the Donk crowd members wouldn't be interested in joining the ROA, but that's not to say that the ROA wouldn't accept them. If you don't believe it, just look at the inside front cover of any Riview and look at the columns you can check off; there are two columns, one for custom, one for modified that get the same amount of space and credibility that originals, restoreds, and under construction cars get.

At least the owner isn't competing in figure eight races or demolition derbies.

Ed

[JZRIV]

I have been following this string of posts with interest. The first thing to remember is this forum is viewed by a very tiny (and I mean tiny)few relative to the total ROA membership. Based on that, any views stated here do not necessarily represent views of the membership majority.

Relative to the "Donk" car: (I didn't even know thats what they were called) In my younger days I would have frowned upon such an extravagant modification to a Riviera but now I look at it like this; People buy a car with their hard earned money. Its their car and they can do whatever they want with it. Who am I to pass judgement on that? If Donking is the best way they can express their individuality, then more power to them. Regardless of how original the car was, or how bad they chopped it up is irrelavant. If everyone was like me, car shows would be boring. I don't care for the donk look but you have to admit, they did a heck of a job on the paint scheme and I enjoyed looking at it.

I have never experienced ROA shunning modified Rivs in any form. What goes into print in the Riview is what the membership contributes for the most part. Certainly there are more members concerned with originality than doing modified versions so you see more cars and articles relative to originality for that reason alone. I'm sure if a member who has experience doing wild customs stepped up and wanted to be a tech advisor for custom/modified as well as for example submitting a tech article on popular mods, I'll go out on a limb and say they would be welcomed with open arms.

[jimtash]

Oh Ed and others, I know we don't exclude or shun anyone. Never meant my other post to be construed that way. I do know that if I was younger and doing mods like the Donk, the ROA wouldn't be high on my list of places to get information from though because there really is none. Do we actively look to include owners of modified cars? Even the Donks? And if we all agree and say yes, then where do we start?

And Jason, that's a great idea. There needs to be someone out there with the knowledge base related not only to the modifications I mentioned, but such things as brakes, suspension, exhaust, paint and everything else. And to have them easily accessible by others would be a bonus. I'd like a set of custom wheels on mine eventually and I don't know how big a wheel would fit. There's conflicting posts everywhere and not one single solitary bit of information on what works and what doesn't. And the worst thing someone can say to another on a forum where they seek help is to contact the manufacturer. A lot of younger people aren't going to do that when they're used to instant information at their fingertips.

If you want younger people to join, then we all need to look at what they are doing to their cars and take an active interest in it. We might even learn a thing or two and vice versa.

Just my opinion.

[lrlforfun]

OK Riviera People: I hear the following.........

Being judgmental

Self Righteousness

Rage

It's very ugly and these responses are common in these forums.

After too many years of hearing this I am finallying saying something. Clean up your behavior and be respectful of others already. Mitch

[RivNut]

Mitch,

If you read the threads carefully, I think you'll see that the vast majority is not bashing the guy or his car. There may be a few opinions, but in the end, the concensus is that it's his car and he can do with it as he pleases.

[Guest abh3usn]

First regarding the membership decline of our clubs, yes we need more young folks to get involved. My wife and I are currently the youngest members of the Tidewater Region at 38 years old out of about 200 members. I have been into the hobby since I was 12 or so as a neighbor down the street had an XK150 and many other cars since. Although the donk thing isn't restored it is still driveable, although would be illegal in VA as we have bumper height laws mainly to keep the 4WD trucks to a somewhat safe height. That doesn't stop most of them as there's several who get the out of state tags and run 'em anyway. As others have pointed out there is no reason the car couldn't be returned to stock. Should it be included in the Buick club? I'd say if it dosen't violate the rules then sure. What is the purpose of the club, to preserve originaility of the vehicles, or to preserve the vehicles period?

When I first got interested in the hobby none of my friends knew much about antique cars. I introduced my friends to them, took them to shows, had them wrench on a few and now there are several dedicated hobbyist who have emerged. One currently is looking to rent a garage then buy his second collector car. So, although I don't like the donk, someone else may not like my unmodified MGB. It's the uniqueness of the vehicle that getts attention and that in return sparks interest. This spark is what our clubs need to foster.

[Guest musclecarfan65]

for me "customizing" is ok as long as you do not mess up with the proportions of a car.

chip foose and others are a very good examples for how to NOT "over-kustomize" a car but bring out it's full potential.

following my personal narrow minded taste i would not buy this crazy boat-tail ... so may please someone else step forward :-)))

[Guest ZombyWoof]

I wonder how well it corners...

[Guest northmn]

yes one could install a nice size battery bank under her & go really Hybrid.This would also lower the specific gravity for cornering nicely.