Restoring master cylinder

[Thom]

I am having master cylinder problems on my 38 Dodge sedan. Several years ago I honed the cylinder and installed a rebuilt kit. It seemed OK but I have never been real comfortable with its performance. Several guys from my car club suggested buying a new cylinder or have mine rebuilt. MY QUESTION: Has anyone had one rebuilt and what were your experiences? Where do I find companies to rebuild master cylinders? Any help is appreciated. Thom

[Guest 1930]

Whitehorse rebuilds them, maybe a little expensive but you get what you pay for. just a suggestion

[keiser31]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1930</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whitehorse rebuilds them, maybe a little expensive but you get what you pay for. just a suggestion</div></div>

I believe that is "Whitepost" Restorations. (That would be what you tie your white horse to. Hahaha....)

[keiser31]

There was a guy at the Portland swap meet last week that has a company called Hagen's Hiway Auto Parts, Inc. that has all you need for your brakes. They will rebuild your own wheel & master cylinders using stainless sleeves. I saw their examples and was VERY impressed. They also make brake hoses.

1526 River Road

Puyallup, Washington

98371

(253)845-7020

(253)841-1904 fax

ecommerce@hagensautoparts.com

[nearchoclatetown]

You aren't useing sillycone fluid are you? Are you positive it's the master and not a hose or wheel cylinder giving you trouble this time?

[hchris]

A word of caution, when you hone out your master cylinder you are effectively increasing its inside diameter.

Now the bucket seals inside are designed to work in a cylinder of specific inner dimension which you have changed with your honing; so it stands to reason that the sealing capacity of the inner seals will be considerably reduced, along with braking performance.

Resleeving the cylinder is the only way to go.

[RickBrinker]

Whitepost rebuilt the Master cyclinder on my 29 DeSoto cost me $250.00 but well worth it.

[Guest 1930]

Yes White post, they powder coat their assy also which is a nice touch. www.whitepost.com or 540-837-1140 is their #. The info I have is old and may have changed I guess

[1929Chrysler]

Apple Hydraulics re-sleeved mine for about $150 if I'm not mistaken. No problems so far.. Knock on wood!!

Dan

[Thom]

Thanks for the feedback. I have been out of town so I could not reply.

I have heard of Whitepost restorations but could not remember the name. I will consider using them and this Hagen’s Hiway Auto Parts.

I am using silicone brake fluid and know the need to be squeaky clean. Several years ago, when I redid the brakes, I installed all new lines, hoses, and installed new rubbers on the wheel cylinders and master cylinder. The brakes worked fine when I had the body off and drove around with just a seat on the frame. After the car was put back together, my brakes still worked fine, but if they sat for longer than a month, I would have to pump them several times before restoring a full pedal. Last Saturday, when taking it out for the first time this year, I had no pedal and after bleeding each wheel cylinder, still no pedal. I need PERFECT brakes on this car and will go to any extent to achieve that. Even if it take sleeving the master and wheel cylinders.

[Thom]

Just talked to White Post Restorations after watching their on-line video. The total restoration for all my wheel cylinders and master cylinder is just under $700. The ready to install on the car, 2 day turn-a-round, and lifetime guarentee is very impressive and for me will probably justify the cost. They claim that the use of silicone is my problem because it usually destores the rubber in the brake system. Something I was trying to avoid when I researched restoring the brakes correctly. White Post did say that some people don't have any problems with silicone, but most do. Live and learn, but I thought it was something I would pass on for those of you considering restoring your brakes or changing to silicone.

As always, thanks to everyone for your help. This forum is a great way to help each other and pass on good advice. I always appreciate the time you all take to do so. Thom

[Guest imouttahere]

A defective or plugged relief valve in your master cylinder can cause the same symptom. I would check for this before spending $700(!).

[nearchoclatetown]

Thom, that's why I ask if you were useing silicone. Execpt in race cars where heat is an issue I've not heard anything good about it. I drove a truck that someone mixed silicone and regular fluid together. It jelled and I had NO brakes at all. When we emptied the reservoir the stuff that came out looked like an afterbirth. I'm told White Post uses brass to sleeve their cylinders, or at least they did. The local guy only uses stainless steel and would be WAY cheaper. PM me if you want his contact. He's not internet friendly, and he won't give you 2 day turn around. BUT he is good!

[Guest 1930]

They do use brass in their rebuild, I know that for sure, my personall opinion is this guy here is right on the money. ....A word of caution, when you hone out your master cylinder you are effectively increasing its inside diameter.

Now the bucket seals inside are designed to work in a cylinder of specific inner dimension which you have changed with your honing; so it stands to reason that the sealing capacity of the inner seals will be considerably reduced, along with braking performance.

Resleeving the cylinder is the only way to go

[Thom]

I talked to the Hagen people in Oregon this afternoon. Somewhat short on the phone and directed me to their web site when I asked about prices www.hagensautoparts.com. They are about half price of White Post, $365 for sleeving stainless steal on all my cylinders, after they receive my core cylinders. Interesting thing is they claim stainless is stronger, will hold up better, and easier on rubber pistons then brass sleeves, which is what White Post uses. Their turn around time is 24 hours from receiving order, which will help me get my car on the road for spring touring. Anyone have an opinion on brass vs stainless.

[keiser31]

Please let us know if you use Hagens and how they did. I referred them and would like to know. Thanks, John

[idrjoe_sandiego]

Thom,before you jump on the White Post train, I would encourage you to look at another website first. I'm a big believer in stainless steel for lots of things, including cylinders, until I read the argument for brass inserts:

http://www.brakecylinder.com/sleeve2.htm#stainless

I had my 29 DA's done here for half of what you were quoted at White Post:

http://www.brakecylinder.com/prices2009.htm

They did a fantastic job and EXCELLENT customer service. I dealt with Joe there(maybe the owner?) and he was very helpful and knowledgeable about old Dodge cylinders.

[Guest 1930]

I was always under the impression that brass was better sleeve because of corrocion factor, especially if the car sits so long between uses. I guess I might do what Joe suggested and look for someone local that you can trust, might be cheaper but again I also am a firm believer in you get what you pay for and sometimes spending the extra dollars is worth piece of mind.

[Thom]

Thanks idrjoe, for the tip. The argument for the brass inserts seems valid. At this point, the deeper I look the more confused I become. If White Post offers a lifetime warrenty using brass, it must last and not give problems. When I talked to them, they told me if a changed brake fluid every 3 to 5 years I would never have problems again.

I will dig deeper and let all know what I come up with. Always appreciate your comments.

[idrjoe_sandiego]

Thom, After leaving you that post, I emailed Joe at http://www.brakecylinder.com to ask his permission to link to his site (yea, I know, <span style="font-style: italic">after</span> the fact). And it's a good thing I did because Joe brought to my attention a few issues that need some clarification. Sorry for any further confusion I may have caused. And Jason, you're right-If you can find a good one, support your local businesses-Joe isn't exactly local, he's in Northern California, about 500 miles away-the transaction was done via phone and postal carrier.

I'll quote Joe's email word for word:

Hi, Joe.

I looked at the posts, and would suggest you go back and clarify a couple of points. White Post sells complete sleeve & rebuild jobs, whereas you got sleeving only from me. We would charge $140 now to rebuild your master, and $90 each for the wheel cylinders. That's $500, less the package discount of 10% for a total of $450.

But your 1929 wheel cylinders are straight-bore. Thom has a 1938, which has step-bore wheel cylinders. We, like White Post, charge more for stepped cylinders. Our prices for Thom's job would be $140 plus $120 each for the wheel cylinders. That's $620 less $62 package

discount for a total of $558.

So...less than WP, but quite a bit more than half.

It would be interesting to know if Hagen is one of the companies using the Hal-Ray system. Karp's Power Brake is the US agent, and their website has some information about the system.

http://www.resleeve.com/sleeving.htm

Wray Halliday, the Australian owner of Hal-Ray, approached me years ago promoting his system, but I had no interest. I have serious problems with some of their methods and philosophies. For instance, they say "Stainless steel is able to be honed to provide a cross-hatch pattern which aides in lubrication."

Spelling aside, while a cross-hatch pattern is appropriate for engines in which the pistons have metal rings, it is ABSOLUTELY NOT suitable

for hydraulic cylinders. To the best of my knowledge, which is fairly extensive, NO manufacturer of any kind of hydraulic cylinder using rubber seals has EVER made them with cross-hatch honing. Rather, they take great pains to supply mirror finishes, using expensive machines and tools.

Regarding home-shop honing of brake cylinders, while it is true that honing increases bore size, most people don't have enough patience to hone long enough (with regular spring-loaded brake hones--honing machines are different) to make a significant difference. Production

rebuilders will often go as much as 0.012" oversize, and if they get all the pitting out such a cylinder will work well and long. The rubber is very forgiving--many wheel cylinder seals are 1/16" or more larger than their nominal diameter.

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate it. You are welcome to share any of these comments if you think others would be interested.

Joe

--

Heather & Joe Way

Sierra Specialty Automotive

Brake cylinders sleeved with brass

Gus Wilson Stories

http://www.brakecylinder.com

[Thom]

I talked to the local shop that nearchoclatetown talked about, and my learning curve expanded. This shop starts with solid SS blanks, not tubes, and cuts the sleeve out from there. He believes SS tubing or pipe is the problem of failure when used for sleeving. From what I have gathered, whether brass or SS is used, each are adequate material for sleeving brake cylinders, providing they are done correctly. One shop or person may prefer one over the other, but both can work well. I’m not sure if I agree with the cross-hatch pattern of the Hal-Ray technique for brake cylinders. I agree with Joe that you wouldn't want any fluid to pass-by your rubber and the cross-hatch will probably allow this to happen.

So then it appears choosing where to sleeve my cylinders comes down to experience of the job, standing behind the work (guarantee), and then maybe price if considerably different. I agree that you often pay for what you get and price is not necessarily the way to choose. I can get the job done for $445 at nearchoclatetown’s shop in Manchester, PA and the man has been doing it for over 20 years without failure of this work. His work is complete, with all internal parts new and ready to install on the car, and has a lifetime guarantee. I like that over Sierra Specialties Automotive, because I don’t have to buy or install the internal parts myself. I also received an impressive dissertation on why not to use silicone from a man that had more reasons then you could count against the stuff.

Unless someone has a good reason that I am all wet, I will remove my cylinders this weekend and be sending them to PA the first of next week. I will let you know how I come out. I really appreciate all your help on the matter. THANKS, everyone has helped me a lot! Thom

[idrjoe_sandiego]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I talked to the local shop that nearchoclatetown talked about, and my learning curve expanded. This shop starts with solid SS blanks, not tubes, and cuts the sleeve out from there. He believes SS tubing or pipe is the problem of failure when used for sleeving. </div></div>

Thom, thanks for sharing here what you have found out, it takes a lot of time to do your homework and then report back to us!

Regarding "solid SS blanks, not tubes, and cuts the sleeve out from there" ... have you ever turned SS on a lathe? This would take a relative eternity to take 1-3/8" solid SS stock and bore out 1 1/4" and then finally turning the OD to the finished size. Not to mention that you now have 2 pounds of expensive SS chips and turnings all over your lathe and shop floor you have to clean up. I don't buy it. Unless I actually saw this with my own two eyes, I truly doubt this is being done. Even if it is, I seriously doubt that the end result would come out better. By the time you hogged out all that SS to the final thin tender shell, chances are your lathe and tool vibrations/chatter would leave you wishing you had started out with a tube instead. My 2 cents.

[nearchoclatetown]

Sorry, but I have to disagree. Reason #1 for solid, MOST tubing has a seam unless you get real expensive stuff. #2, with modern tooling it's no big deal to drill and bore SS. I wouldn't doubt that some are useing 303 SS, which has sulphur, and is free machining, but I don't know for a fact. 304 SS is what most use. It's even food grade.

[idrjoe_sandiego]

NOBODY wastes that much SS!

[idrjoe_sandiego]

Except maybe the US Military.

[nearchoclatetown]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: idrjoe_sandiego</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NOBODY wastes that much SS! </div></div>Well sir, you can believe what you want! Let me explain it a differant way. Look in McMaster-Carr's online catelog. Seamless tubing and solid bar SS is about the same price per foot. The worn cylinders need bored before they can be sleeved. Now your cylinders may need bored to .040 oversize to clean them up and make them round. Another set may only need .020 to clean them up. So what size tubing do you buy that doesn't need machined to allow the proper press fit for both sets of cylinders? And the Whatzit 2000 that he did cylinders for yesterday was metric. So he buys solid bars and makes the sleeves exactly the size he wants. We are talking about 3/4 to 1 1/2 inch diameter material here and maybe 1 1/2 to 2 inches long per cylinder, longer for a master. It ain't no big deal to make them from solid.

[idrjoe_sandiego]

OK point well taken- I'm just glad that I don't have to clean up the mess. But why do you need seamless- the welded 304 has burst strength of over 7000 psi. You don't have enough feet to create this kind of pressure in an old lockheed brake system. And when you compare those prices, the welded tubing is half the price of bar stock. But I do get your point, it makes sense not to have to stock so many diameters. So why does the rest of the world use tubing ?

[nearchoclatetown]

Welded tubing is not round, there's a lump or divit where the weld is. And it machine funny too. Not sure how the rest of the world does things, just here in PA.

[idrjoe_sandiego]

Thom, whatever your decision be it brass or ss, tubing or solid--you aren't going to go wrong. Obviously, there is more than one way to skin this cat--the fact that all of the businesses discussed here have been around for a long, long time speaks for that. I doubt they'd still be around if their chosen method didn't work. The important thing is that you have chosen to restore your collector car's brakes thoroughly and correctly. And I applaud that.

[Guest 1930]

Just out of curiosity as i pointed out early, I am under the impression that stainless can rust over time if not used frequestly, and over time the minute pitting will get worse and worse so why would anyone use anything but brass. I know you guys are talking about strength and all sorts of other things my simple brain cant or dosent care enough to comprehend. ( becasuse in my opinion we are not talking about trying to stop an eighteen wheeler with 49, 999 pounds on board ) I like to try and keep things simple but answer this is laymens terms if you can. Thanks

[nearchoclatetown]

Jason, SOME SS will rust but not 304 or 316. Look in a machinist's handbbook or maybe McMaster-Carr catelog for the chemical makeup. Going from memory 304 has 11% Chrome and is resistant to almost all acids or chemicals. That's why it is food grade. I think 400 series is the SS that rusts, but it can be heat treated which has advantages. The SS everyone says is so HARD to drill or thread is not hard at all. It is abrasive because of the chrome, that's what wears out drill bits. Rule to machine SS is slow speed fast feed. Drill bit real slow and lots of pressure, with sulphur based cutting oil. SS can not be welded is the presents of sulphur, and your drill bit is trying to weld itself to the SS. That's why sulphur based oil is the secret sauce.

[Thom]

Doug, Jason, Joe and the rest of you, a thousand thanks for your insight, expertise, and help. It’s obvious that I am out of my league when it comes to metal and metallurgy. It’s a very interesting subject and I’m impressed with your knowledge. Looks like the SS machinist from PA gets the job.

[Guest 1930]

Its definiately out of my league also but thanks Doug for that info, that is very interesting and good to know

[alsfarms]

What is the reference for the brake shop in Manchester Pa.? I must have missed something as I read this series. I have a master cylinder out of a late 40's Mopar. It is my plan to use it as an upgrade to hydraulics on my Model A.

Thanks, Al