1933-34 DeVaux Continental

[Barry Wolk]

I'd like to add a 1933-34 Continental convertible to my collection, but I can't find any. I can't even find any photographs of one, only sales brochure drawings.

I've seen one sedan in person and photos of other Continentals with tops, but no convertibles.

A little help?

[Durant Mike]

Barry

In the Durant Motor Registry at www.durantcars.com you have only one DeVaux convertible listed and not many DeVaux's surviving period. They were only in business for just over 1 year as Norman DeVaux bought up all the left over Durant parts when Durant Motors went bankrupt in 1932. Norman DeVaux once worked for Durant and ran the California Durant plant. When DeVaux went belly up, Continental who had provided all the motors for Durant products except the Durant B-22 which had an Anstead engine bought the left over parts a mixture of Durant and DeVaux and produced their car which was also very short lived. Only a very very few Continental cars exist today. I'm not even sure they produced a convertable. You might go to www.durantmotors.com and post a note on their forum, someone might have a picture or more information on one.

[Barry Wolk]

[Steve Braverman]

Barry,

Does your DeVaux convertible have a Hayes body? Can you post a photo of it? I believe the body is the same as my Franklin.

[Barry Wolk]

I believe it is a Hayes body.

[Barry Wolk]

The drawing above shows suicide doors.

[Steve Braverman]

I am missing the top bows and irons for my car, and I plan to make new ones. I know of a few Franklins around with this body whose owners will allow me to make drawings of the irons, but it's going to be a very challenging project.

Windshield and header bow look slightly different than the one on the Franklin.

The Franklin Olympic is basically a REO Flying Cloud with a Franklin engine stuffed in. I only know of one REO convertible surviving, and there are only about 11 Franklins.

Here's a photo of a nice Olympic convertible showing the top and windshield. Your DeVaux appears to have squared off corners at the bottom.

[Barry Wolk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve Braverman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barry,

Does your DeVaux convertible</div></div>

I don't have one. I'm looking for a '33-'34 Continental convertible to add to the "Continental Collection".

[Barry Wolk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve Braverman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am missing the top bows and irons for my car, and I plan to make new ones. I know of a few Franklins around with this body whose owners will allow me to make drawings of the irons, but it's going to be a very challenging project.

Windshield and header bow look slightly different than the one on the Franklin.

The Franklin Olympic is basically a REO Flying Cloud with a Franklin engine stuffed in. I only know of one REO convertible surviving, and there are only about 11 Franklins.

Here's a photo of a nice Olympic convertible showing the top and windshield. Your DeVaux appears to have squared off corners at the bottom. </div></div>

That picture looks like it was taken at the Barthel's Ice Cream Social.

[Steve Braverman]

Oh,

I misread Durant28's post as saying that <span style="font-style: italic">you </span>had the only DeVaux convertible. Who owns the green car then?

[Barry Wolk]

I found it here:

http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/DurANT/Additions/devaux/devaux-roadster/1932-roadster.html

[Steve Braverman]

I believe that the Devaux and the Continental are quite different cars. The Continental is a much smaller automobile. I've never seen one. There are only four Continentals in the registry, and none are convertibles.

[Durant _32]

Its not believed any convertables were made Continental or Canadian Frontenac C400 / C600.

The registry doesn't have all the cars surviving but there aren't many. Terry hasn't updated his Manitoba site for sometime now on our cars or new info that comes out of the woodwork on them. Have to remember folks all don't belong to clubs or want their cars known.

Theres a C600 four door Fronty sedan under restoration thought to be the only surviving one and bits of another C600 two door sedan body has just came forward, thats joining a C400 owner next year.

[Barry Wolk]

So, they offered them but never made them?

[Barry Wolk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve Braverman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe that the Devaux and the Continental are quite different cars. The Continental is a much smaller automobile. I've never seen one. There are only four Continentals in the registry, and none are convertibles. </div></div>

From this it would seem that the Continental was simply a continuation of the DeVaux.

[Durant _32]

It would seem so but under different owners. From what I am reading the new owners changed the name to Continental in the US. Saw somewhere DeVaux planned to make the Do-Vo but it never got off the paper. So conflicting info once again to what you have added about a proto type. I'm not really into the 33 and 34 cars. Just enough problems trying to understand the Dominion Motors cars 31 - 33. Why updraft carb 33 Durant but downdraft 33 Frontenac ? And yes they built the model 633 Durant in 1933 in Leaside Two are known to exist with a possible of a 3rd of 8 built. That's where US differs, we did build the 614 / 618 Durant 1931 and 32 after Durant failed early 1931. Also our Canadian Frontenac's. Probably as the 33 Fronty is mainly a Continental, versus the 31 / 32 Fronty is a carry over of the US 619 Durant with again, changes.

What a mish mash of attempts to keep the Co's afloat and why we say in Durant land there are no two the same. Reach into a box and put that part on vehicle A and reach into that other box and put that on vehicle B. Stick a Rugby crest on one car, and Durant crest on another. Same models / cars.

[HarryJ]

Barry, I really wish you luck in your endeavor. I saw a Continental Beacon at the Hilton Head Concours about three years ago. It was a two door sedan; but, to me it was the most interesting car at the show!

[Guest onelung]

Can anyone tell me if the gearbox as fitted to a 1933 Continental Beacon is the same as that fitted to any other cars of the era? That is, was the gearbox a proprietary box "bought in" from outside and fitted to the Beacon: if so - what was it? Regards, Geoff, South Australia.

[RPrice]

What a nice looking car that Devaux was.

Rog

[Guest Leonard Shepherd]

I believe this is one.

[Barry Wolk]

That's a DeVaux. The Continental had a grille that swept forward at the bottom.

[Durant _32]

Don't know if I can copy but this is the only known 1933 C600 Frontenac, currently under restoration.

[Durant _32]

I guess it doesn't work in this site like DMAC Forum. Ah it uses a different one of the 4 threads.

Yes the bottom rad shell sweep out is a continuation of the Durant line in the US 1931 model 619 and Canadian 618. Also the 1933 Canadain model 633.

Other models have the flat shells.

[Barry Wolk]

New bit of information. Phil Skinner, of KBB sent me this.

The Red book only provides values. In the July 1, 1934 edition, the 1933 Beacon roadster had a new list of $355.00, and had a cash value of just $130, a 63.3% hit in just one year, while the Flyer roadster had sold new for $450.00, was valued at an even $200, or a 55.5% drop.

By June 1935, the Beacon roadster’s value had fallen to just $75.00 (79% drop from new); while the Flyer’s roadster was now pegged at $120, a 73% drop.

Why would they list the value of used cars that never existed? It also appears that the Beacon and Flyer both had Roadsters in the line-up.

The search goes on.

[West Peterson]

Why would they list the value of used cars that never existed?

Actually, that wouldn't be totally surprising if they had found a source where the car's were listed. They just used a formula/estimation/calculation based on printed "original price" information.

[TG57Roadmaster]

I've found over the years that Red Books are practically infallible for the data found;

we even changed the BCA's 1947 Buick Judging Manual with tire size info from a Red Book.

They didn't report on "almost-car companies," only the ones that had proven sales,

and they provided much info on the new models each year, as well,

as evidenced below (June, 1933 issue) for the '33 Continental...

Larger, click once after opening to enlarge.

The amount of data lessened as the cars got older (Sept-Oct, 1935), and the marques

were sent to an "Old Model Index" a few years after the companies went belly up.

Larger

Studying the specs here for the De Vaux & Continental cars should give a better

idea of their relation (or not) and what may have been a carry-over.

'31 De Vaux data will follow in a few minutes...

TG

[TG57Roadmaster]

Here's '31 De Vaux info from the May-June, 1933 Red Book...

Larger

I'd refer to engine specs, wheelbases and the like to make comparisons between

De Vaux and Continentals; sadly there isn't data for Canadian models.

TG

[Barry Wolk]

Actually, that wouldn't be totally surprising if they had found a source where the car's were listed. They just used a formula/estimation/calculation based on printed "original price" information.

Why have you been so adamant that no Roadsters existed? This should be proof enough for almost anybody. I can't imagine they would bother wasting space in their publication on cars that never existed.

[Barry Wolk]

Here's '31 De Vaux info from the May-June, 1933 Red Book...

Larger

I'd refer to engine specs, wheelbases and the like to make comparisons between

De Vaux and Continentals; sadly there isn't data for Canadian models.

TG

The DeVaux and the Continental were completely different cars. The DeVaux body was metal over a wood framework with conventionally hinged doors while the Continentals were all steel cars with suicide doors, front and rear.

[West Peterson]

Barry

I didn't mean any disrespect, and I am not trying to be adamant. In fact, that was my very first response in this post. You asked "why," and I was just trying to answer with a scenario. You can't always believe what is in print. I've seen plenty of information printed about cars that were never produced. It was all done for hype, in an effort to gain some momentum and interest. If there was enough response, they would build cars. That hype would get picked up by editors of publications such as Red Book, they'd plug in their formulas, and print.

Tom has added that the Red Book is quite reliable, so I think that should give you some hope that there might be one out there somewhere. But until we can see some actual photos rather than illustrations, you can't blame me for being a bit skeptical.

I'm sincerely sorry for any confusion I've created. I really hope you find one. Really.

Edited August 4, 2010 by West Peterson (see edit history)

[durant frank]

Hi All.....

This is what makes antique cars so interesting!

The thrill of the pursuit.

One thing I have learned through the years is never say never.

For years the "experts" said Durant never produced a 1929 Model 70 . Even though the sales literature did exist. Interestingly I have found and purchased 2 of them. I know of, and have seen, at least one more.

Each one is a different body style, I have a standard coupe and standard 4 door sedan. The other one I have seen is a deluxe 4 door sedan. These where one of the largest Durant models ever produced.

One of our club members owns a 1933 Durant. It was just discovered a couple years ago. It is completely different from any other Durant. The stuff is still out there.

Keep looking for that roadster! I hope it's out there.

Frank

[Barry Wolk]

West,

I owe you an apology. It was someone on HAMB that was adamant about there never being a Roadster.

Mea Culpa.

[West Peterson]

I understand.

[Seldenguy]

Barry -- In my NADA used car guide dated May 10th 1934 and issued for"District No.4 only" The Continental for 1933 lists a 4 cyl 2 passenger roadster FLP $355 w/sales price at $295.The next level up a six clyinder,series 60 Flyer with a FLP of $450 w/sales price $395 also listing a two passenger roadster.The series 81 Ace does not list any drop tops, nor does the 1934 Red Seal model. The above figures are "average prices based on the actual sales reports received from new and used car dealers within each logical trading area, or as provided for in the code." The NADA organization is still a much used reference source. Based on the information you have been gathering,I believe a roadster has been built and traded in the market. Good luck in your search for a car/and/or information. The book also only shows one five passenger phaeton in the 1931 DeVaux offering.--Bob

Edited August 4, 2010 by Seldenguy (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

"... or as provided for in the code."

At the risk of sounding adamant, what does this part of the quote mean?

[Seldenguy]

West--I admire your tenacious opinions and I concur on the vagueness of the word "code". Perhaps someone at NADA headquarters could better explain how this choice of wording was utilized prior to the 1934 publication date. I have reread the thread and I still think the pendulum is swinging in Barry's direction. I have been wrong before but in murky water I always try to look at the glass as being half full! Warm regards--Bob

[Barry Wolk]

I have just acquired a Continental Beacon and Flyer service manual and the Roadster is definitely listed.

[Barry Wolk]

I'd like to add what I've recently learned about the Continental Motor Company and their venture into car production.

A recap. The DeVaux Company owed Continental Motors $500,000 when it went under. Continental was building a private-labeled engine labeled as Hall, a partner in DeVaux. Continental bought the assets for $40,000 and forgave half the debt. Continental built out the remaining sheet-metal on wood buck bodies as DeVaux-Continentals as they installed their famous Red Dot engines.

In 1933 Continental came out with a line of small, semi-luxurious, stylish cars in three luxury levels, corresponding to size. There was the 4-cylinder 101"wb Beacon in 4 body styles and a 107" Flyer with a much more powerful 6-cylinder Red Dot engine available in 2-door, 4 door, Business coupe and Roadster. The luxury offering was the 4-door Ace at 114" and a bigger engine. Many have tried to convince me that the Roadster was just a marketing ploy and that none existed. Until today, the only proof I had was that there were Continental Roadsters listed in the 1930's Kelly Blue Book. Some said that it was common for Kellys to list information that manufacturers gave them, without much depth. I don't know about that. Here are the only representations I've seen of the Roadster. In all my searching I had ever seen a photograph of one, only drawings.

A friend of a friend in Australia sent me pictures of a distressed, but fairly complete 1933 Continental 4-door Flyer, just like mine. Well, almost just like mine. As I've gathered information for a Continental Registry I found that there were a number of RHD Continentals in NZ and AU. He posted pictures. His car was very, very similar to mine, but different in some respects.

I noticed a big difference in the body line. It was double in the rear where mine had a single body line.

I also noticed that his door handles were in the body line while mine are on the flat of the door. Further scrutiny confirmed that his car had 3 hinges on the front door, while all others that I've seen had only two. I noticed that the car from New Zealand had a body like mine, but the Australian body was different. I thought maybe he got a prototype, or something.

Further discussion led me to an Australian newspaper data base called Trove, which proved to be a treasure trove of information about Continental in Australia. Trove - Search results for 'beacon continental'

I learned why his car looked different. About the time this car was built the Australian government was very protective of its auto industry as they were hard hit by the Depression, too. They enacted a content law. Requirements were from 43-50% local content.

Apparently, Continental would ship complete running chassis, fenders hood grill & cowl, less the passenger compartment, to a company called TJ Richards, where the cars were completed and sold to the Australian public as an American car from the producer of the world's most prolific engine producer. They were slightly different from what the US was offered, and were not all-steel bodies like the Hayes-supplied bodies. In 1933 the Continental Motor Company had already produced 3,500,000 engines for the aviation, commercial and automotive field and it's dealers in Australia played on that fact.

If TJ Richards built it there would be tags in prominent places. That remains to be seen when he gets the car out of storage.

Pictures of Richards body shop in action.

Search Results

What finally convinced me was this 1934 picture of an Australian-bodied Continental Flyer with the radically altered front end.

Some Aussie ads.

[Barry Wolk]

I have also proved, at least to my satisfaction, that a Roadster actually existed. In addition to the KBB showing used Roadsters, I have located an actual photo of one. It's the 4th car to the right. If it were a 2-door business coupe it would have a set of windows behind the front door. This picture also shows the distinctive cut of the cloth top.

And the cherry on top.

From a 1937 newspaper.

[Dave Mellor NJ]

I see the "Howards" ad shows a phaeton