Lug nut removal

[JohnD1956]

We came across a new problem today, and could use some help trying to figure out how to handle it.

Working on Dougs 89 Leasbre ( front wheel drive) we were trying to get the front tire off. Seems somehow, somewhere someone put that tire on with a super duty air impact wrench or something and we could not get the lugs loose. Normally when we have a tight bolt we put a 1/2 drive six sided socket on the nut and then use a piece of pipe we have that's about 4' long. We have never had a problem with this till today.

We could not get the lugs to loosen with this method and when we thought one did loosen, what happened is the lug twisted itself and tore in half vertically. In other words there is 1/2 of the lug still on there with all six sides.

Any ideas how to tackle this and save the aluminum rim?

Thanks

[51dyno]

Nut spliter if there is room/die grinder to grind close to the thread can release thread pressure/ mapp torch to heat nut&blaster penetrating oil or take back to the clown that torqued them that tight.

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JohnD1956</div><div class="ubbcode-body">there is 1/2 of the lug still on there with all six sides. Any ideas how to tackle this and save the aluminum rim?</div></div> Steel lugs and nuts are low carbon steel and NOT hardened.

I don't suggest using heat. Your alloy wheels will draw it out faster than you can apply it. (Heat tends to mess up everything around it, too.)

Use a sharp center punch, and start drilling the wheel stud with a small bit, keeping the hole centered. Graduate to larger bits in small increments. Eventually the nut will fall out. You will save your wheel. A new stud costs under $2.

A word of warning: Drill steady and straight, and keep the bit cool. If you get tired, stop. Patience and tenacity will finesse the nut off. Impatience will break drill bits, angle the hole, and take longer to finish.

When steel and aluminum are tightened together, they can form a bond that is nearly impossible to break, especially when left together for many years.

My Edelbrock aluminum heads use ½" ARP bolts, tightened to 95ft/lbs. Seven years after assembly, I broke two sockets loosening those bolts, (under a valve cover). One socket was a 6-point impact Snap-on, which rounded-out. The other was a deep-well Craftsman, which split. I'm a big guy, and I use my torque wrench absolutely square. It was clacking at 120ft/lbs., and the bolts still weren't loosening.

ARP examined the bolts and sent a free set. The new set included hardened steel washers. (Ahhh-haa!) The old assembly used no washers. Herein is the problem and the solution.

I don’t know if you can put hardened washers under your lug nuts. Most alloy wheels need to be re-tightened sometime after installation, which brings you full-circle with your problem.

Consult an alloy-wheel company engineer. They are familiar with this situation. I would love to hear his answer. - Dave

[Dandy Dave]

Sometimes tapping on the nut, stud with a hammer will help loosen it along with penetrant.

Note I said taping, not slaming.

The viberation works wonders. Dave!

[Bhigdog]

Not quite sure I can picture the problem but can you pull the rim with the disc/drum attached and attack the problem from the back? It might be easier and cheaper to find replacement mechanical parts in a scrap yard than a matching rim....Bob

[JohnD1956]

Thanks for the suggestions. Just got some pictures to show the situation. The lug nut to one side of this one appears to be at least as tight as this one that broke. Those thin metal chrome caps do not want to separate from the lug nuts either. Drilling may be the answer but first it's going back to the shop where we suspect this happened to see what they'll do. Since the car has only been to one shop in the last two years I hope they'll be up front and admit the mistake and help out with the repair. If not then we'll try some of these suggestions. luckilly we have another rim if need be.

[Guest ZondaC12]

Looking at those pictures....you might try (starting out with a smaller bit of course) drilling into say the surface of the nut above the lug (staring at the lug straight-on), and maybe doing that at each of the six points, and slowly getting bigger, just eating away at the nut itself, and maybe with enough holes it will just kind of fall apart, or will come apart with some coaxing. Just thinking out loud really.

[Mark Shaw]

A couple more suggestions....

I agree with previous posts about using heat, but you might try shrinking the stud with dry ice or the arasol freeze stuff from a drug store.

Try a shot of PB Blaster and while it is soaking, go to Sears. They will sell you a special set of nut extractors (used to remove rounded nuts) that might get enough bite to remove the lug.

You may have to drill out the lug and/or use a cold chisel on opposite sides to either drive it off or split the lug nut.

[Bhigdog]

This looks pretty doable to me John. IMHO getting a drill to start and run true on the uneven nut surfaces is very unlikely.

Were this my problem I would use a die grinder with the smallest diameter wheel, even working down to a dremal tool to grind away one side of the nut down to the lug threads. This will allow the nut to "spring" a bit. Then a small chisel tapping moderately to the open direction should get it moving. By using a grinding wheel carefully, even if you get into the lug threads or touch the rim a bit you won't be really boogering either one up to where it is ruined. Once you have a nice flat surface ground you may even be able to get a small drill started to cut the bevel at the

nut bottom. Once you are done grinding and start tapping a bit of PB blaster may help. Let us know how you do.

For the rest of the nuts an impact wrench would be the best way to go starting out with a lower torque setting. The hammering action will usually free a nut where a steady torque would twist something in half...Bob

[Guest simplyconnected]

<span style="font-weight: bold">Look at the wrench witness marks. They all stop right where your nut broke.</span> NONE of them go to the bottom of the nut, where the real friction is. Your wrench isn't deep enough!<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JohnD1956</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I hope they'll be up front and admit the mistake and help out with the repair.</div></div> John, they may not have made a mistake. That's why I went through that big explanation about steel on aluminum. Your shop my fix this problem, but for a price. Tire stores run into this a lot.

Your pictures shows rust between the threads, and a SHEAR break from using torque on one side. A normal TORQUE break will have a twist-swirl in the middle. Borrow a deep CROSS-IRON, it torques evenly from both sides. Use it on your other lug nuts.

The broken stud has to be replaced anyway, so you might as well drill it out. You don't need to go very deep. If you try to split the nut, chances are, you will go into the wheel, and there's no need for that.

[JohnD1956]

You may be right about the reaction between the metals. The rear wheels were similarly tight, and we are sure we were the last ones to install those. The car sat this past winter in a garage built at least 50 years ago. And although there is a concrete floor, Doug was saying how it seemed that the car had more rust on it than he'd remembered. He moved to a two family house this past fall where he got half the two car garage, but the other tennants got the other half and they actively used their half every day, so who knows how much moisture and rocksalt got in there and was trapped with the car.

I also think you're right about not getting the socket deep enough. That's our mistake. We saw that plainly when we worked on the rear tires.

Anyway, it's raining right now and so this project will be on hold for a few more days. I don't have enough space to get it inside to work on. Meanwhile for what it's worth I hit the bolts with some PB Blaster I'm going to try and get those chrome caps off so I can get the blaster inside to the threads.

Thanks again for the ideas everyone. We'll let you know what turns up on this.

[Guest simplyconnected]

John, I would much rather be helpful than 'right'. My only goal is to let folks know what happened in my situation, and to give you 'my take' on what I see in your pictures. The term for what you have is, 'cold-welded'.

Most of us here, are restorers. Nothing seems to be easy, working with old fitment and technology. I hope to save you money and aggrivation by offering the best solution for your restoration. I am sure the other posts intend the same for you. There are lots of ways to solve this. All ideas are very good.

Sometimes I forget, so many of our members have umpteen years working on this stuff, and I am not telling anything new or different than they already know. Truth is, I've learned much from everyone else's problems.

Right or wrong now matters little, if it happens again later. I am told NOT to use anything on lug stud threads, but I do anyway (I use Anti-Seize, silver). Maybe there is a better solution to preventing this from happening to you again. Please call that engineer at the alloy wheel company tomorrow. I wanna hear what his advice is. - Dave Dare

[JohnD1956]

We also put antisieze on the rear wheel studs, as well as a light coat around the center hole on the rim.

I know the lugs are to be torqued and I have read more than once that proper torque specs are done using clean and lightly lubricated fasteners. That being the case there should be something on the threads, although obviously a light coating of the same.

[Bhigdog]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I am told NOT to use anything on lug stud threads</div></div>

I think what's meant when you hear don't use anti seize on lug nuts is don't put it on the end taper. That's what actually does the "locking" when it's twisted into the matching taper in the rim. Anyway, like you I always use silver anti seize on the threads. Never have had a problem either with seized nuts or lost wheels..........Bob

[Barney Eaton]

With all the tools available today, you should have little trouble removing the nut(s)

I purchased a Corvette once with a stuck nut and was able to drill into the nut, missing the stud, then breaking the nut apart with a chisle.

I recently had to remove wheel locks from my grandsons car and we tape around the nut on the wheel to protect the finish, then welded a 1/2 inch nut to the wheel lock nut and all four came off without difficulty (the extra heat probably helped)

The other thing you might try is a cut-off wheel in a die grinder. Try cutting the nut without touching the stud threads. Then finish the removal with a chisle.

If you have more to remove, I think you need to get a deeper socket as "simplyconnected" suggested to make full contact with the nut over its entire length.

[Dandy Dave]

Say JD, If ya want some help up there, call me and I'll come and give you a hand. Dave!

[TG57Roadmaster]

First off, a trick I learned long ago for air-tightened nuts is to use a large crossbar lug wrench. Preferably an <span style="font-style: italic">old one</span> made of real steel, not a shiny new cheapo Walmart-type made from tin cans or worse. After fitting the right size socket to the nut, take one parallel end (to the car) in your hand, and <span style="font-style: italic">slowly</span> apply foot pressure to the opposite end. With your hand(s) in "front" and your foot in "back," you'll be surprised how much torque you can get from this approach, and it's never failed me yet. When done <span style="font-style: italic">slowly</span>, the process also allows you to stop if you feel you're about to torque-off (bust) the nut.

Second, I agree that a Dremel tool fix will be the easiest way to cut off what remains of the nut. The bolt will be trashed, but if you're slow and careful, the rim should be undamaged.

Good luck,

TG

[Guest rlbleeker]

I'd drill the stud on this one. I would be difficult to get to the tapered part of the nut and very likely that you would damage the wheel in the process. The hole in the wheel is larger than the stud, so you have some room for error drilling the stud. Use good bits and cutting oil; cheap drill bits are worse than useless. Center punch it and drill slowly with moderate force. I'd start with and 1/8, go to 1/4, then 7/16. You should then be able to twist the stud off using what's left of the nut.

[JohnD1956]

This will seem cheap and unexciting, but Doug called the place and they agreed to fix it, no charge. So we took the easy route for now. If they change their mind after seeing the damage then we'll be taking all these suggestions and applying what we can. If it makes any difference, I wanted to give it a try, but Doug made the call. So we'll see. I'll let you know what happens.

Thanks again everyone. It is great to have this group as a resource.

[Guest ZondaC12]

WELL! Nice to see them standing behind their work and making right on a mistake. Seems hard to find sometimes! Hope he's makin' some good progress on the LeSabre, I know he's got several plans for it. I like them, I'd totally drive one.

He told me once everyone says "Hey nice custom" no one believes it came like that from the factory!

[JohnD1956]

It really is an interesting car. I had to use it one day and I was surprised at the number of kids in ricers who were galking as they drove past me. The front and rear spoilers are very artistic on these cars. Of course I belive all classics ought to be driven slowly, so people can see them as you pass by, but tonight I drove it back to that shop for him and this little car is surprisingly quick. That 3800 is really a great engine. It would be nice to see it move forward with body work and paint but the next thing up is a set of struts. Can you imagine that the originals wore out somewhere between 181 and 205K? I mean what are they making this stuff out of today anyway ?

[Guest ZondaC12]

That's exactly what he said...the ricers LOVE it haha. And yes I gotta imagine that the 3800 moves it along alright.

How many miles does that thing HAVE? Over 205K anyway it sounds like!!

[JohnD1956]

Well, the problem has been resolved. Doug made a good choice and we didn't break any drill bits.