Matt Harwood Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 Went to a local CLARK gas station outside Cleveland this afternoon (in Independence, intersection of E. Sprague and Brecksville Roads if you're looking), and lo and behold, there's a separate nozzle on the pump, not for diesel, but for <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">leaded</span></span> gas! I'm not kidding--it has an octane rating of 87.5 and the larger nozzle so you can't fit it in your unleaded tank.Anyone else seen leaded gas since, oh, about 1987? I was shocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 That's unusual Matt. Hard to believe. What was the price difference?Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Bond Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 Did you try to see if it really worked? Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted August 1, 2007 Author Share Posted August 1, 2007 No, I didn't try it because I had no place to put the gas. It was priced at $2.69/gallon, the same as regular unleaded. I even went inside to ask the clerk if they really sold leaded gas, and the kid behind the counter said, "Yeah, I guess so," and shrugged. Not exactly definitive.The pump was relatively new, so I don't think it was just a remnant from the good old bad old days. Plus there was the separate sticker saying it was rated at 87.5 octane, which I've never seen before (in Ohio, regular is usually 86 or 87, with mid-grade being 89 and high octane between 91 and 93). That also made me believe it was legit. I may go back and try with a small gas can for the mower next time I'm in the neighborhood. Does leaded gas smell different? Any way to be sure it's the good stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Bond Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 According to EPA, Effective January 1, 1996, the Clean Air Act banned the sale of the small amount of leaded fuel that was still available in some parts of the country for use in on-road vehicles. EPA said fuel containing lead may continue to be sold for off-road uses, including aircraft, racing cars, farm equipment, and marine engines.So, although they probably don't fuel planes from that pump, it might be available for racing fuel, or if you are near the water, perhaps boat motors? Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 I wonder if the leaded fuel lasts longer before it deteriorates??? Or would one still need to use a Sta-Bil addative.??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Moepar Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 There used to be a couple of stations just north of Asheville (NC) that had, about 12 years ago, sold leaded gas. I understand that it was <span style="font-weight: bold">left over, old</span> gas from when everyone could sell it. Several folks I know used it, & immediately after had to bring their carburetors to us to clean out & rebuild, and had to drain the gas tanks. If this is the same stuff, I wouldn't use it as it would be gummy & could cause serious damage (sticking needles in carbs the minor part, possibly sticking valves worse). If it smells sicky-sweet (compared to fresh, unleaded gas) don't use it!West - if this is fresh, good gas, the leaded type did last a few month longer than the unleaded (up to about 6 months longer) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted August 1, 2007 Author Share Posted August 1, 2007 Sounds like I need to go get some and do some testing. How does one know it's "new" gas? How to be sure it's even leaded, other than taking the station's word for it? Maybe I should do a taste test? If leaded gas was phased out nearly 12 years ago, I doubt this could still be leftovers. This particular station is nowhere near the water, and isn't exactly out in the middle of nowhere, either. It's right there in the middle of the suburbs. Perhaps there's a noteworthy contingent of people in the area who need the fuel--old car guys, boaters, model airplane builders, etc. Enough locals using it might make it profitable to have a dedicated tank for the stuff at the station. Next time I'm there, I'll at least get some photos of the pump.Anyone have any tests they'd like me to to try that would clear this up? This would be a great source of fuel for the Buick, should it ever (ever? ) get done... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Saxton Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 It is not tetra ethyl lead that makes fuel cros-link and go "gummy", but one or some of the main chemical components. No-one tells you exactly what is in gasoline or petrol, even in terms of paraffin, olefin, or aromatic; let alone alchols or anything else. You cant guess that they alter comosition seasonally. I had a tank full of petrol in a car which had not been used for ten years. I pumped it out and used it, and it was fine. Yet in the early 1960's my father gave me the job of getting a Lee tank he owned going that had been sitting since 1947 in the Melbourne suburban backyard of his friend who had driven it about 180 miles on the highway from the tank park, and for some reason it never came the last 80 miles. The carby on the Wright Whirlwind radial engine was filled with glue. I cannot remember how I cleaned the rest of the system, but I just fitted a new carby, and we had no more trouble. Obviously the fuel that was sold in Australia in the 40's was very different to what it is now. I am surprised that your gasoline still cross-links if you do not use it quickly. It seems that we have never been told why it was so imperative to get rid of the lead out of fuel; and you might suspect that that it was more for political than biological reasons. Tetra ethyl lead itself is very nasty stuff if you get it on you, but according to my former boss at CSIRO Animal Physiology, ethyl bromide was another fuel component, and lead bromide is "fiercely biologically inactive". There is another side to the coin. One of my friends wo came from UK many decades ago has a cousin who works the air quality testing gear at London's Heath Row Airport. The curious thing that is always significantly present is another heavy metal. I do not recall from biochemistry that platinum is an enzyme cofactor, and I have no idea whether it is in any way toxic. But the only source of airborn platinum would have to be degradation of automobile catalitic converters!Ivan Saxton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 Ivan, I understand that the lead in leaded gasoline ruined the catalytic converters that became mandatory on the cars sold in this country. That's why they went to the smaller gasoline inlet and those unleaded only stenciled gasoline guages on those cars.It's against the law in Virginia to take converters off of our autos now.Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Cullen Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Leaded is still available in this area, but is clearly marked "for racing or off road use only" the pump can't be reached by directly pulling up to it, and the hose is so short, it will only reach a can so you can't just pump it into a car. (btw, it's about $1.75 higher than the standard fuels out at the island, and is rated 105 R+M/M octane), the good stuff!I think that the rules against the removal of catalytic converters is federal EPA regs. Wayne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ZondaC12 Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 yeah do they specify which years you cant take em off? I know here in NY if the car is 25 years old or older there is NO emissions system inspection whatsoever, since it's considered an antique. Maybe thats not as universal as I thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Braverman Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZondaC12</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know here in NY if the car is 25 years old or older there is NO emissions system inspection whatsoever, since it's considered an antique.</div></div>It may seem that there is no emission inspection, but I don't think that's true. I'm fairly sure that part of the NYS inspection for every vehicle is a visual inspection of the emission system. It should fail if any emission device has been removed or disabled, especially catalytic converters or smog pumps.I once had a BMW 325e, and I didn't realize it at the time I bought it that the previous owner had removed the cat. My eyes would burn if I drove with the windows open. However, I lived in Ulster county at the time, and there was no emission inspection, and nobody ever looked under the car. When I returned to Long Island, or the New York Metro Area, I installed a cat in order to pass the emission inspection. No more burning eyes, and the car ran better. I miss that car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Saxton Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Sorry I may not have been as definitive as I perhaps should have been, Wayne. It would seem that it is not necessary to have lead to degrade a catalytic converter of its platinum; and who can tell if that will cause health problems to people in the long term. I believe that EPA we have here does not always let scientific understanding interfere with political objectives. Probably a more important consideration than lead bromide may be the nitrogen oxides in car exhaust, and what role that has in smog. Maybe if there was an easy way to collect the nitrogen fertilizer from exhaust gas, you might grow roses as well as you can from the exhaust of a horse. Regards, Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolidAxle Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Doubt that it was real leaded gas for a couple of reasons:1.) Currently leaded fuel is running $5.399 in the Cleveland area.2.) It is illegal to pump leaded fuel directly into a motor vehicle, you must put it into gas cans.3.) The leaded fuel that I'm using, purchased on the east side of Cleveland yields 110 Octane. 87 Octane seems really low unless it is to be used in lawn mowers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 The information I have is that the sale of leaded fuel even for off-road uses is banned sometime in 2008, completely eliminating leaded fuels in the U.S. In 1996, the last year that leaded road-going fuel was still legal anywhere in the U.S., only 0.6% of gasoline sold contained any lead. At that there was still a little less than 2000 tons of lead emitted to the atmosphere in the U.S. that year from gasoline fuel.I've been searching and I cannot come up with a single reference anywhere to 87.5 octane leaded gasoline outside of this thread. Whatever's in that pump is almost certainly a creation of the gas station owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted August 7, 2007 Author Share Posted August 7, 2007 Here's a photo I took today of the pump in question. You can see that there's a separate nozzle for the unleaded and the various grades. The price on regular unleaded was $2.75/gallon. The leaded was $2.85. You can also see the blue county auditor's seal, complete with Frank Russo's head on it, above each nozzle, indicating that they were examined separately.I have no explanation beyond that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Interesting Matt. I could use that stuff in some of my HP engines.Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted sweet Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 the fact we have no emissions inspectiom still doesnt allow for the removal of emissions equipment.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZondaC12</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yeah do they specify which years you cant take em off? I know here in NY if the car is 25 years old or older there is NO emissions system inspection whatsoever, since it's considered an antique. Maybe thats not as universal as I thought? </div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 emissions equipment? Most of the young "technicians" around here don't even know what a carburator is! Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest elmo39 Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Dave will the banning of leaded fuel completely in the U.S in 2008 include Avgas as well. here in N.Z i think the use of leaded fuel is only permitted in aircraft and jet boats ,although i have heard of some classic/vintage owners buying avgas in a can and mixing it with regular gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elmo39</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave will the banning of leaded fuel completely in the U.S in 2008 include Avgas as well. here in N.Z i think the use of leaded fuel is only permitted in aircraft and jet boats ,although i have heard of some classic/vintage owners buying avgas in a can and mixing it with regular gas. </div></div>It's very difficult to find hard answers to the proposed actions of EPA because they're constantly being revised and commented on by "interested parties" right up to the last minute. The best I can do on short notice without pouring through libraries of <span style="font-style: italic">Federal Register</span>s is to go through the available online info and discern the proposed EPA actions.The exemption for non-road going uses of leaded gas was set to expire at the end of 2008 in the original Clean Air Act Ammendments of 1996. It appears from the comments I can find that EPA is proposing to extend it for aviation <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">only</span></span>, although petitions continue to be submitted to have the aviation exemption lifted. The current exemptions for farm/marine/competition(racing) use appear to be set to expire as planned.NASCAR may just have to crawl into the 21st century after all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's a photo I took today of the pump in question. You can see that there's a separate nozzle for the unleaded and the various grades. The price on regular unleaded was $2.75/gallon. The leaded was $2.85. You can also see the blue county auditor's seal, complete with Frank Russo's head on it, above each nozzle, indicating that they were examined separately.I have no explanation beyond that. </div></div>If this is really leaded gasoline and it's put in road-going cars, it's a Federal crime. Don't look for that pump to be around for long!It's also a Federal crime to eliminate pollution control equipment from a car driven on the road, whether you're subject to emissions inspection or not. Frankly you're a lot more likely to be caught selling illegal gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Dave, Nascar went to unleaded fuels this year, if I'm not mistaken. As far as inspections, it amazes me that anyone would want to run an inspection station and go through the paper work and oversight required to keep their license.Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W Burgess</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave, Nascar went to unleaded fuels this year, if I'm not mistaken. </div></div>They switch over beginning next year ( NASCAR.com, 1/21/06 ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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