Thriller

I think the biggest impact is that it has inflated expectations of value to the point that sellers have unrealistic expectations of the value of their cars. They are high level cars, but the market still fluctuates - last night I caught one of the Apollo White GSXs and the auctioneer kept interjecting that it was easily a $250k car and was struggling to try to get bids to $100k. The auctioneers are almost seeming to set the value of the car, rather than the market. The other thing is that there is such a range. I'd hate to pay $500 for a bidders card plus 10% buyer's fee on the '70 Electra that sold for a $5500 bid - the fees add about 15% to what would otherwise be a great deal. It is a spectacle - there's a local that goes down every other year and I think the bidder fee covers a guest, so there are two of them that attend, driving down the cost to attend. It is a form of entertainment. There is another auction in the area around the same time that is better suited to the hobbyist crowd. Now, if these are significantly impacting the price guides, and inflating prices, I'd think it has a detrimental impact. I've been disappointed looking at cars that weren't what I would have expected for x dollars. I like the raising of awareness, but there's a lot of the "special" or charity cars, customs, and so on that potentially confuse the casual observer.

Mike - I may be wrong, but having period Buick wheels does not disqualify you from the driven award. Having period correct mags like Cragars or Centerlines does disqualify you. If I am incorrect, I hope Pat or someone else in the hierarchy will correct me. Paul - well put. Fun is what you make of it. If getting a car judged stresses you out - washing, detailing, swapping headlights, etc. just to get that extra point or two, it probably isn't fun for you. There are other options. Year cut offs for classes make sense to me, but if the reason for them isn't explained well enough, it seems arbitrary. 25 years old for the driven class makes it about old Buicks. Perhaps it is too high. I guess another question becomes how we come to decisions like this. There are always members who want things a particular way, but perhaps the conflicts with the BoD meetings at the Nationals in recent years are hindering the membership's input. Do 20, 50, or 100 members who attend the open meeting at the National provide a true representation of the club? I don't think so. The board members are approachable. Would it perhaps make sense to put together a couple of questions to create a short survey that goes with BoD ballots? So, once a year members could have a direct say in the running of the club. Even if only 10% participate, that is significantly larger than the crowd at a given National. Well, I seem to be blathering again....

Have you tried looking at your browser history? Unless you have wiped it, or have it set to clear history on a regular basis, you should be able to get at it. I hope this helps....

Drool....

My wife is trying to steal mine...as soon as we can get confident in its capabilities...however, it has been fix one thing and something else crops up. I need to get it a bit more reliable before comfortably turning over the keys.... Of course then I'd need to start working on my '61 Invicta so I'd have a convertible to drive as well.

BJM - I agree that it should be able to happen within 10 minutes, as does the chair of judges training. That said, it has not been my observation in the 400 point judging. For some, knowing that they have a well-restored vehicle is enough. For others though, they might like the recognition that a team of judges agrees. Different strokes for different folks. Archival Class and Driven Class are completely different animals. Many archival winners can be driven, therefore could belong in both. However, there are enough rules in place for the archival class such that many, if not most, Driven Class award recipients would not qualify for an archival class award. There was the one example (I think in another thread) of trying to determine how to enter his car...if it qualifies for Archival Class, to me that is where I'd enter my car. This year, with Driven Award judging at a separate time, if you drive an archival car, you can enter in both.

Try Wheatbelt Buick Also Compact Buick Club - Bruce is on here every now and again, but there's an e-mail address for him there. If that doesn't work, I have it. He's an authority on these cars. The first Sunday of May is the Gopher State Chapter's Spring Extravaganza at the state fair grounds in St. Paul. There is a decent swap meet with it and a good number of Buicks attend - there may be someone there who may be able to help...of course that is a ways off. I haven't ruled it out, but I don't suspect I'll get there this year.

I think we need to recognize that the club, and its classes / prizes need to evolve. If you haven't already seen it, there's a photo in the January Bugle that I took. If I recall, it doesn't include our 2006 Rainier - Suzanne didn't feel it belonged. However, it is listed in the roster. This indeed demonstrates that some don't feel comfortable with newer Buicks at the meet...and it's her primary vehicle. We could participate at Nationals by driving the Rainier, but I know I'd like a choice that isn't just display, like some of the others have mentioned. There will come a day where we'll need to develop classes for vans / SUVs / CUVs because Buick made them. As for the driven class, I think it is more complex than it needs to be. First, as a result of some of the rules of the driven class, we already have two driven classes - the one we are primarily discussing here and the modified driven class. So, what does a member choose to tick off on their registration form? What happens at the National if they have their car in the driven class and it is deemed to be modified, therefore doesn't qualify? Are the driven and modified driven classes going to be judged more or less together so that we can at least provide the benefit of the doubt to the participant so they don't wind up going away empty-handed? I'd hate to be the one on the field trying to explain to an owner why they don't get an award if is because they should have registered it in another class. What is a new BCA member to reference if they don't have the older Bugle to reference, or perhaps even Internet access? Some information needs to be provided on the form to ensure an appropriate decision can be made. Now, I'm going to try to address some of the points made previously...I don't recall who all made which points. I like Mark's idea of a formula to give impetus to older vehicles. Perhaps a minimum needs to be set to get an award. The highest score could get a special award. As for checking distances, has anyone heard of Google Maps? Set it up to give shortest distance from the home address specified and all the mileages driven could be figured in short order. I have wound up trailering cars for a variety of reasons. The '41 got trailered since it was fairly new to me and I wasn't yet confident it would make it to Seattle. The Wildcat was on the trailer last year to avoid potential damage en route to the meet. I guess that didn't really matter, although the truck is more comfortable driving. The '54 wagon will go to Ames on the trailer...it's been causing me a bit of grief and isn't happy hot starting...I'd rather get it there and back than have to deal with stuff on the side of the road. Besides, burning diesel in the truck pulling a car gets me a similar overall fuel cost compared to driving one of the old Buicks. A blanket statement like a daily driver can compete in 400 point is a pretty broad brush that doesn't necessarily fit with my experience. It depends on the judging team. BJM - in spite of what you stated (although I'm beginning to wonder if it was another thread), 10 minutes per car seems to be optimistic, again based on observation. Going back to the creation of the class, am I understanding correctly in that we got what we have as a result of making compromises so that it could be approved? I know that wasn't stated, but it's kind of what I'm reading between the lines. We have a different BoD now. Not everything needs to be set in stone. If the membership wants it, perhaps changes could and should be made. Worst case, a survey could be done...we may have a low response rate, but if those who feel strongly responded, we may have a better feel for where the membership is at. Oh yeah - a non-Buick engine doesn't disqualify a modified Buick, but if I recall correctly, it is a serious enough deduction that it is discouraged. I guess I'll shut up now...I'm tired and if I keep going, I'll increase the odds that I'll really offend someone.

Better you than me Rick It's looking like there's some shoveling in my future...of course I should be able to send the kids out to deal with it.... Maybe I'll try to take a photo of the Kubota next time I'm out in the country moving snow.

Jim, I'd just like to make a point of clarification regarding the judging. First of all, the Judging Manual is the authority. It is available as a PDF directly from the BCA web site. I have judged archival class the last two Nationals where there was judging. There are no points in archival (or class U). It is either pass or fail. There is a limit to how much of you car can have been repainted (one panel) and so forth. Check the judging manual and the archival class judging form to be sure your car will do OK. I'd hate for you to register for the class to find out that you have something that will keep you from an award. The driven class is essentially just that - if you drive your Buick, you can get an award. You need to have a spare and fire extinguisher (all classes). There are some basic restrictions (like you need Buick wheels of a similar year). If you have some small modifications that don't qualify your car for the driven award, there is a modified driven award. If I bring my '76 pace car down, it will be in this class because it has Centerline wheels on it. While they are period correct, they don't meet the stringent requirements of the driven class. If you change your mind after the fact, once you get your registration information back in the mail, you will have contact information that you could use to change your registration. I look forward to meeting you. For sure I'll have my '54 Century Estate Wagon on the field.

My car has power steering, which doesn't show up on its data plate. The car is a base Special, and prior to me, there was some butchering involved. Body number starting with BC means it was built at South Gate, CA. A book I have is conflicting as to whether trim 031 is white or fawn. Paint TC should signify a Fawn Mist lower colour with Arctic White top. I'm not sure about the 1...there may have been different two tone styles. The serial number would start with A if it was a V6 car and 0 if it had the V8 originally. I am unable to decode any more...I hope this helps out a bit.

Lana, please let Stevo back at the computer...we can tell when it doesn't sound like him at all.

I suppose another question is what the paint job is actually like. A very visible improvement can be made with some elbow grease and paint care products. So, if it is perhaps a bit dull, faded (oxidized), or lightly scratched, this would be an alternative for you. It's much less expensive than a paint job.

Here's a couple of photos of my car. I have plenty of exterior shots, but not so many decent interior shots. My car has bucket seats up front. If you post the firewall data plate information, we can help decode it for you and try to get you well on your way. There's a few of us here that have them, but CompactBC is pretty much the expert.

One thing to consider is that without having a crystal ball to look at the economy and the collector car market, it is almost impossible to come to a definitive answer. If the price guides (make sure you use as many as you can get your hands on - there's still a few out there) lead you to believe you can get a paint job on the car without turning yourself into a nervous wreck about the value, then you may be OK. However, the bottom could drop out of the market and we'll all lose shirts if we need to sell. That's another thing. If you are genuinely concerned about a car as an investment, you need to personally assess how much you can afford to lose. For many folks, losing their job, or health problems and associated costs, mean they have to sell their cars as it becomes a lower priority rapidly. The two cars I have put significant restoration dollars into are about $30k into one with a price guide value on the order of $12k for a #2 (and I would argue it isn't a #2) and on the order of $20k into one worth $10k. It doesn't take much to get upside down into a car. The best deals I have made were on local cars that were reasonably nice. I didn't spend a bunch on transport and they were in decent condition not needing a lot of work. The ones I bought at a distance have turned out to be the most disappointing financially. That all being said, I am not in it for the money. I do have a lot invested in the hobby and I do have some residual value in them. There are only a couple of ways I see to make money here, aside from getting lucky. The best investments are the ultra-rare, high value cars. Of course, the more you spend to begin with the more you have at risk. Another is to restore the cars with your own labour and count your labour costs as nothing - this works best for the sort of folks who enjoy the working with their hands more than the finished product. Another way is to get lucky in terms of finding a buyer who wants what you have and is willing to pay top dollar because it is what they want. Good luck coming to a decision. I hope these points have been at least marginally helpful. As always, these are my thoughts and don't necessarily fit with your philosophy or situation.

Thanks for the chuckle. Good idea on the scrapers...ultimately they'll scratch. Perhaps not so good an idea to wait on the global warming though. Much warmer up here today and we are predicted to get above freezing for a couple of days this week. That'll just make a mess of the roads for when we return to normal-ish winter weather.

Well, at least the natives should have shed the parkas by then Years ago we had relatives from that part of the world come for a visit - it was either July or August...one of the women stayed home because she didn't want to go where there was snow (central Saskatchewan). Funny how much wheat you can grow in those snowy fields

That's just frost...not actually snow. That's what windshield scrapers are for... :rolleyes:

Whimper. 1600 miles and a 20 hour drive at a time that is a bit more difficult for me to get away...hmm...I'll give it some thought, but I wouldn't bet any money on Ellie making it.

That's so close, I'd have to keep one or two Buicks ready to run when they are normally winterized. I could go south for a winter trip

29 is almost shirt sleeve weather. I'd probably get more done outside if it were that balmy here ;)

According to my sales brochure, there were 3 versions available in the LeSabre: Wildcat 384 - standard engine, 364, 2 bbl, 250 hp, 384 ft-lbs, 10.25:1 CR, Turbine Drive Transmission Wildcat 375-E - regular gas, 364, 2 bbl, 235 hp, 375 ft-lbs, 9.0:1 CR, Turbine Drive Transmission - optional at no extra cost Wildcat 405-4B -high performance engine, 364, 4 bbl, 300 hp, 405 ft-lbs, 10.25:1 CR, Turbine Drive Transmission (available at extra cost) Only the 401 4 bbl Wildcat 445 was available on Invicta, Electra, and Electra 225 lines. This may not be absolutely definitive, but it is factory literature. As to how rare or popular an option this would have been, I can't say. I would presume it is a bit more economical to operate as it would be able to run on regular fuel instead of premium and it may get better fuel economy. Nice car. You just don't see too many '61s around at all.

Rhode Island Wiring - riwire.com if I recall correctly.

There's an outfit somewhere in New York that rebuilds them - they did the wiper on my '54. I'll have to dig around to verify who they are, although I suspect someone else may be able to verify quicker.

We were on the northern fringes of that system that dumped the snow...it was our first real snowfall of the year. Of course, the chill has settled in here and it's a bit cool.