A. Woolf

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I think the most likely reason for this new trend is because people often initially get into street-rodding as a form of self-expression. If you'd have seen the tens of thousands of 1930's Fords and Chevys, and thousands of less common makes, that I waded through to find the rods on "Lost Souls", you'd know that a street-rod is about as individualistic these days as a backwards baseball cap. And these days in America, nothing is as important as self! </div></div> A very good point. One of the interesting things I have observed about the hot rod/street rod crowd is that they are very driven by trends. They tend to go from one style of rod to the other. At one auction recently televised the commentators judged a 1970's era Model T sedan hotrod to be "old" and dated even though at the time it was built it was a magazine cover car and considered state of the art. There are many arguments among rodders as to what constitutes a real hot rod. To some degree I can understand the purpose of hot rodding in the early era. Rodders wanted their cars to perform better than what was being offered by a stock car from Detroit. And most rodders were creative working with very small budgets. With some of that crowd max performance is still pursued but my observation with most of them it is all about looking good that being determined by the latest trend. They even have "discussions" about trailered vs driven. I can only imagine that rodding a 36 Pierce Arrow has more to do with shock value and a "hey folks" look at me kind of attitude. It is a shame to see a car rodded but I cannot do anything about what someone else chooses to do with their property. They certainly have the right to do it but I don't have to believe it to be a good thing. Additional opportunites for organized touring is a great idea. Our local HCCA region just hosted its first national pre16 tour. Even though it was small it was a big hit and there are folks from the national HCCA asking us to do more tours. Also we have been asked to consider hosting a joint AACA-HCCA Reliabilty tour. I think touring may be a matter of "if you build it they will come". Maybe some AACA regions need to focus their energies on hosting tours and take a break from hosting judging meets. Meanwhile the Stanley is loaded and I am off in the morning for a week of steam car touring. Y'all have fun with this thread while I am gone. Alan

A Packard is cheaper than a Ford? That's news to me. You can a build a rod from completely new components with a fiberglass or steel body nowadays. It can't be any more expensive to build one properly by using catalog components. So why is there a need to cut up original cars? I don't profess to understand it. Alan

Chris, You need a Mangin Mirror. They are made by Lancaster Glass: Lancaster Glass I cannot get into their online catalog right now. If you send them an email they will send you list of sizes and prices that they make. I just recently bought a pair of these for my 1913 T and they are not cheap but they are correct. This company has made these mirrors since 1910. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><font size=+1>Alan</font></span></span> </body> </html>

My local HCCA region hosted our first National pre-16 tour last month in North Georgia. The registration fee for car and driver and one passenger was $300. There was an additional charge for extra passengers plus the tourers had to pick up the cost of a couple of museum admissions and one optional banquet. A family of four could have done the tour for $400-$500 plus lodging. Lodging was $72.00 per night in a very nice but not extravagant hotel. Our tour had 20 cars with one 20 something couple plus several 20-something participants. Small tours are fun and we got high marks from the participants for our efforts. Is it cost or vacation time that is the primary factor that determines if a family will attend a tour? This would be a good poll question for the membership. Or do most car owners not want to drive their cars except for the occasional Sunday afternoon drive? Alan

Dan, Did the $400 cost include lodging? If so that was a heck of a deal. Alan

Model T Fords are some of the most afforable collector cars available. Good older restorations or decent original black radiator cars (1920's era)are available from 4K to 10K. Parts are available from several vendors and lots of original parts are available all over the country. Brass radiator cars are generally more expensive but it depends on year and condition. For instance a friend called me today and told me about a 1913 Model T touring that he found that was a running good old restoration with a late T starter engine that he thought could be bought for 6K. Finding one is matter doing your homework and doing some digging for the right car. Check out these websites for more T info and classifieds: MTFCA MTFCI <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><font size=+2>Alan</font></span></span> </body> </html>

John, That is a great and I remember reading it years ago and being impressed with the Burg and its restoration even as a kid. That is the kind of story that the AACA magazine needs more of. BTW where is the car now? Is it still in the family? Alan

I agree that restoring a car to the Senior or Grand National Award status can be quite expensive depending on the amount of hands on work the owner does. But there are a lot of owner restorations and nice original cars that will easily win 2nd or 3rd junior prizes. Many years ago Bert Harrington who at the time had more judging credits than anyone else in AACA told me that the majority of trophies given out at National Meets were Senior and 1st Junior awards. That may still be true. I guess many car owners underestimate the quality of their cars and don't realize that they could win a National Award. The point in all this is that a young person can participate with their car in National judging even if they drive it to the show. They don't necessarily have to have a lot invested or have a rare or unique car. This is one of the little known "secrets" of AACA National Judging and it gives many opportunites for all hobbyists at every level to participate. Alan

Steve, I decided to see if I could add something to your discussion by addressing each topic point by point. Nothing I have written is intended to be offensive or controversial but I hope it does keep the discussion moving forward in a positive direction. 1. How do we attract younger members? a. Quit teaching them that this hobby requires lots of cash. Use the magazine to highlight owner restorers and put some focus on teaching basic techniques and how to do restorations creatively. Tom Reese?s columns were great teaching tools. We need more of the same type of writing with new ideas for the postwar crowd. b. Get them behind the wheel. Showing cars is cool and winning prizes is fun but the bottom line is that cars are made to be driven. One issue that needs to be addressed is insurance for the pre-25 year old drivers. The antique car specialty insurers have made it almost impossible for a pre-25 year old to drive a collector car. I suspect the real problem has to do with keeping pre-25 year olds from driving high dollar, high horsepower muscle cars. A teenager in that type of car could be a big risk. But it also impacts their opportunity to drive Model A and T Fords and six cylinder 56 Chevys and much more reasonable not so expensive collector cars. All of the major car clubs really need to address this issue with the specialty antique car insurers and get some reasonable coverage in place for the next generation of collector car owner. c. Feed their dreams. I am a second-generation old car guy and my dad was a big influence but I was also a kid with a huge interest in old cars and several members in our local club didn?t blow me off or ignore me. They answered my questions and encouraged me when they realized my interest in old cars was for real. One member in particular used to let me drive his cars as a 16 year old. Driving a big classic Pierce Arrow made a big impression on me. 2. How do we gain more members in the West and other places we are not represented? For me personally one of the real pleasures of going to different places for old car tours and shows is meeting new people and learning about different parts of the country, however, regional prejudices are alive and well. I know a little about this from hosting tours in the last couple of years. Some folks just will not travel outside of their part of the country for anything. One suggestion that I cannot take credit for but may be worth considering is to break the club down into regions of the country i.e. SE, NE, SW, NW etc. Each region would then select board members from their region to represent them. Activities for the region should be planned and organized by committees within the region and should be allowed to reflect the interests of the regional groups. Just as Howard Scotland and Dan Binger have commented on the unique opportunities for touring out west maybe a ?western? regional group could focus more on touring and less on national type judging meets that are more popular in the northeast. Hopefully keeping more of a focus on regions would help ?sell? the club to new members. 3. What services are we not providing our members that you would want? Nothing from my perspective. 4. The magazine will change, what would YOU like to see? Go study the old magazines from the 50?s and look at the quality of the photography and articles. A lot of the articles that I read again and again as a boy were the stories of how individuals found rare (and not so rare) cars and the subsequent restorations. In many cases the owners restored their own cars and their creativity in restoring their car was showcased. Leonard Rhinehart?s 1910 Mitchell now owned by Gene Reeves that is pictured in the current AACA magazine is a good example of a ?Salon? car that was featured in the old magazines. My particular interest is in brass and teens era cars. The attempt to be diverse with a 25-year and older focus just does not work for me. And I am sure the muscle car guys feel the same way about early cars. Trying to be ?all things to all people? rarely works well. How about printing two or three different magazines? Maybe with your membership you get a ?generic? AACA magazine that talks about club activities and reports on meet results and tours and you also get to pick from one other publication that has its focus on brass cars, or teenage cars, or prewar cars, or postwar cars, or muscle cars or whatever split makes sense. If you wanted to get all of the ?focus? magazines that are offered then you can pay additional fees to get them. The key to these magazines would be great photography and articles from individuals who can really write about their interests with knowledge and passion. Another thought for the magazine is ?drive reports?. If you have read any of Ralph Stein?s books he was able to drive and capture the spirit of an automobile and help the reader to gain an understanding and insight into being behind the wheel of the car he was driving. Another thought would be to have a ?face off? with various cars. How about road testing and comparing a 1910 Model T Ford and 1910 10hp Stanley? Or a maybe a Boss 302 Mustang vs. a Z/28 Camaro. All of this is a bit of dreaming but it has been done and could be taken to a new level. 5. Ideas for changing of our website, what features do you suggest. Other than adding more pictures of recent tours and national meets the website looks pretty good. 6. How can we gain improve our meets? National meets definitely needs a new paradigm. The way a National Meet is organized and conducted hasn?t changed much in 50+ years. There are a lot more National meets each year than in AACA?s early days. The last couple of AACA meets I have attended were poorly publicized and therefore not well attended by the public. Maybe the time has come to cut back on the quantity of meets and consider changing how they are conducted. We have to get out of the mindset of putting on shows for the membership only. One of the nicest shows I have attended in a long time is the Amelia Island Concours d?Elegance. It is an invitation only show and they always bring out a fantastic group of cars from brass to muscle cars to racecars and everything in between. Even with a $25.00 admission fee it draws a huge crowd of all ages from teenagers to octogenarians. The money from the ticket sales is given to charitable organizations so I am sure that is part of the draw to the event. I am not suggesting that AACA meets be invitation only or put on as fund raisers but there are some elements of the Concours d?Elegance type show that might used to craft a new type of AACA meet and get the public out and involved. Things like having an MC announcing the winners right after judging and have them drive up and receive their award could really help capture the attention of the audience. 7. Any new touring ideas? Going back to regional idea from question number 2 how about promoting shorter 3 or 4-day (long weekend) regional tours focused on individuals from a smaller geographic area. I keep hearing comments about two income families and it is more difficult to get away for a few days. I think the real truth is that families are heavily involved in other activities (baseball, soccer, etc) and the old car hobby is not thought of as a family activity. It?s thought of as dad?s hobby. Tours can be great teaching tools from a geographic and historical perspective and I guess we need help families understand the value of the ?total? touring experience for the entire family. Plus getting the kids in the garage to at least be exposed to automobiles and mechanical things gives them a bit of practical knowledge that will be useful as they grow up. 8. How can we find the $$$ to support the Library, Museum and National? I can?t help you with this one. I am not gifted in the area of fund raising. 9. How can we get the early cars out more? This is another diversity issue in my opinion. The prewar guys don?t feel a part of the postwar car hobby and vice-versa. How about sponsoring pre-war and post war meets? AACA already offers touring for various ages of cars. Why not do the same for judging meets? BTW one area that just about every club ignores is the ?Nickel Era? car. There are a lot of very nice cars from the 1915 to 1930 era that get little recognition. This might be a good place to increase numbers for prewar touring and judging. 10. How can I find more time in the day? Probably know the answer, stay off the site! Quit sleeping! <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><font size=+2>Alan</font></span></span> </body> </html>

ex98thdrill. No offense was taken nor is any offered when discussing these topics. You are right about the difficulty of communicating in a forum and getting the real message across without coming off as arrogant. Getting back to your points, I have felt like for a long time we discourage a lot of potential enthusiasts by telling them they cannot afford to be in the hobby. Just because the long time collectors can afford to spend to spend big money doesn?t mean everyone can or should. Buying and restoring a car can be a big expense but it does not have to be. Cars are like working on old houses and sweat equity can help overcome a lack of cash flow. Case in point my brother bought a very rough 1915 Model T roadster in 1979. My father, brother, and I restored the car out of my parent?s basement. Equipment was limited to a 1hp air compressor, a 6-inch lathe, gas welding equipment, and a selection of hand tools. We did all of the work on the car including engine rebuilding (except boring of the block), welding of patch panels, painting (in the back yard) and all of brass restoration and assembly and details. The upholstery and top were kits that we installed. The total bill for the restoration and purchase was around $6000 spent over about 2-1/2 years. Oh and I forgot to mention the car won the AACA Ford Award. Granted 6K would be twice that or more today but spread out a bit most folks with a reasonable income can figure out how to afford that kind of money. Now just to bring it up to date a bit late last year I bought a very original 13 T on Ebay for 9K. It cost $1200 to ship it across country and I have spent about 5K on a full mechanical restoration, top, and tires. I now have a very presentable and reliable brass car that is ready to tour. My father and brother helped me do the work and we did it right and I did not skimp on parts this time. At this time I can afford to do things a bit differently than when I was a 15-year-old throwing newspapers to support a Model A habit. The bigger point being is that you can still get in the hobby to at an entry level and not have to break the bank. T?s and A?s are still cheap. You can buy T?s for much less than what I paid and it will take more sweat equity but it can be done. We need to recapture the idea of the ability to enter the hobby and work your way up. I bet a lot of guys with high dollar cars started out with Model T?s and A?s and traded their way up. If you read the old AACA magazines from the 50s and 60s a lot of cars were owner restored and many were National Prize winners. The argument about the older cars and safety comes up a lot. I do drive my cars in traffic (a suburb of a major metropolitian area) where I live (non-interstate) and do fine but for most folks they would be feel better driving an older car in a more controlled environment. That is where organized touring gets to be important. We do some traveling and try to make a tour that is a long distance from home (500-1000 miles) about once a year. And we do it without a lot of fancy equipment. We own a nice open trailer that we bought used several years ago and my father owns a nice 91 Chevy ¾ ton truck with a tow package that was purchased used very reasonably a couple of years ago. With this combination we haul a 4000-pound car quite comfortably. In twenty years of traveling we have never had any problem with our cars being vandalized while on the road. We also participate in local tours and try to drive to and from weekend tours that are from 50-100 miles from home. We have no show cars right now and have pretty much retired from the show car circuit so keeping a car clean in transit to a show is not a priority. Driving and touring is a lot more fun. BTW I am an engineer in the aerospace industry in my professional life and I am pretty darn conservative when it comes to safety issues. So don?t think because I talking about low cost equipment that it is not safe. I really believe people can do what they set their mind to do. If they believe they cannot do something they will never attempt to do it. I run into a lot of folks who could be in this hobby if they just set a goal and pursued their dream. That is what I have done since I was kid looking at AACA magazines and dreaming of going on Glidden tours and winning national awards. And I have done all of that and more. I still haven?t answered Steve?s questions but I will start a new reply for that purpose later. Alan

Olds 442 I disagree with your take on ex39thdrill. Not all individuals are interested in cars they grew up with. I certainly was not. That is one of those urban legends that is frequently used as an excuse to plan club events. I am 47 and bought my first car a Model A at age 15. I have always been interested in older cars especially brass and cars of the teens. I currently own a 1917 Stanley and a 1913 T. And I know at least two guys in their twenties who are brass fanatics. I don't know if I would be classed as an old guy or not. I sort of feel in between old and young when it comes to the discussion about ages of hobbyists. I have been active in the hobby for a long time and I have owned some later cars too. My perspective is a bit different because I know a lot of the older guys in hobby and also some of the younger ones. I still strongly believe the older cars have a place in the hobby and will always continue regardless of the attitude of some indivduals. I can certainly appreciate the later post war cars and muscle cars but my personal focus is on the old cars. BTW Ron I was at the Stone Mountain meet that you referenced where they handed out trophies immediately after the show. The thing you forgot to mention was that it was the hottest day of the year and it was miserable. I like the idea of the awards ceremony right after the show but some consideration should be given to the climatic conditions! The award ceremony on the lawn after the show is very popular at the Pebble and Amelia Island and other concurs events. At those shows they have the award winner drive their car up and they are presented the award. The MC usually gives some history or background on the car and sometimes will briefly interview the owner. I think it helps personalize the award. Why couldn't this be done at an AACA show? It would only make sense to do this with the 1st Junior and Senior Cars due to the numbers of awards at the biggest shows. The Preservation cars would have already had the honor when they won a Senior award. This would also be a great thing to do with first time HPOF winners. The history of a lot of those cars is usually of interest. There is usually a story as to why they survived. Alan

Or how about all whites! ASW

I find it odd that the biggest American car meet is in Sweden!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I would today be the proud owner of a large early brass touring car instead of being the donor of the Museum Directors boardroom, to the tune of a few $$$. </div></div> Well put Howard. That is a good reason not to support a museum. Buy a car and put it on the road. Alan

I was referring to both gas and steam Whites. White always built a high quality car. I got a chance to look at a 1915 White touring a couple of weeks on a tour in Georgia and it is a nice car. White was not building many passenger cars by 1915 and I think they were primarily built to order. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><font size=+1>Alan</font></span></span> </body> </html>

Ron, You are correct. Marmon is a very good car. An early 48hp Marmon would be high on my list of cars to own. I should have pointed out that my list needs to be have additions made to it from the rest of the group. It was just a quick list of cars off the top of my head. Alan

How about Packard, Peerless, Pierce-Arrow, Lozier, Locomobile, Stanley, Simplex, Mercer, Stutz, Stevens-Duryea, Thomas-Flyer, America Underslung, Stoddard-Dayton, Olds Limited, White, Pope-Hartford, Pope-Toledo, Chalmers, Welch, Doble, Dusenberg, and so forth and so on....... Alan

If I was a teenager and listened to most of the posts on this forum I would be discouraged from looking from looking for an old car myself. These types of negative attitudes are the big reason I am no longer active with the local AACA chapter that I still belong to. I run into too many people who think it is foolish to restore or drive the oldest cars. What is worse is that they spend too much time pointing out the negatives and not encouraging the younger generation to follow their dreams and get involved. On the tour that I drove my 13 T on last week I had a 17 year old young man as my passenger one day. He is already into the old car hobby and owns a 67 Plymouth. He also works in dads shop where they restore Jaguars. His dad owns a couple of nice brass cars. This young man told me of his desire to own a Model T. He doesn't have a lot of money but neither did most of us at 17. I am sure with his enthusiasm he will find what he wants. I know another young guy who is 30 years old and he has already owned a 12 T and a nice teens Locomobile and is now working on a serious pre-10 brass car project. And I know another 20 something fellow who is searching vigoriously for his first brass car. These guys inspire me with their enthusiasm and their true interest in the hobby. They are interested in the cars and getting them out in public and having some fun. There are plenty of young future hobbyists out there. But they need encouragement not negative attitudes. ASW

It seems nowadays that many people in the car hobby can't see the forest for the trees. The projects y'all are referring to such as a 56 Chevy would be a big project if you had a nice solid complete original car to start with. Just doing the plating would cost a ton of money. Most typical 40s, 50s, and 60s cars would be a daunting restoration task for a novice. I think where we miss the boat is not encouraging entry into the hobby with cars such as Model A and Model T Fords. Good running cars are still available and you can find them for much less than 20k if you do your homework. I would be willing to bet if asked some of the old time car hobbyists who started in the 50s and early 60s they probably started out with a T or an A. Those cars are the roots of the hobby and they are still a good entry point for a young person without a lot of money. The advantage to these types of cars is they are simple to work on and parts are available and not so expensive. Someone with average mechanical skills can work on one. Someone who is a novice mechanic can learn a lot from just tinkering with these very basic cars. Information about the cars is much more readily available due to the internet and the forums that are provided by various Model A and T groups. Answers to simple and complex questions are often available at the click of a mouse. And the skills learned from working on a T or A can be used to work on any kind of future project. And in case you think a Model T can not be driven I bought a nice 1913 Model T touring last year on Ebay and did a full mechanical rebuild on it and I still have quite a bit less than 20k in it. I just took it on its first tour last week and put 475 miles almost trouble free miles on it. The only problems were tire related. We cruised all week at 35-45 mph and had a ball. And just for reference I live just outside of Atlanta, GA so traffic here is not a picnic. We don't drive our old cars on the interstates but most of the time we manage to find usable routes for the cars. Too much of the car hobby today is concerned with matching numbers and matching dollars. The best fun I have found with owning an old car is getting it out on the road and watching the smiles as I drive by! Alan

I have a bit different take on museums and large collections. I am not really a big supporter of them. The main reason I don't like them is that they tend to take cars out of circulation that could be enjoyed by individuals. Many people think the breakup of Harrah's after the death of Bill Harrah was a bad thing probably don't consider that many of those cars are back in the hands of individuals and in many cases being driven and enjoyed. I have had the opportunity to drive a rare Stanley that came out of Harrah's and is owned by a friend. The car is on the road regularly nowadays. Otherwise it would be gathering dust in a musuem showroom. Another friend is restoring a 1914 Chalmers that came out of Barney Pollard's collection. Pollard originally wanted to build a museum around his cars in partnership with the city of Detroit but thankfully it never happened. I bet most brass car collectors are familiar with at least one car that came out of that collection. Another thing about taking these cars out of circulation is that it has to impact their value. The law of supply and demand is not repealed just because you are dealing with automobiles. Scarcity typically drives cost. I visited the AACA museum last year during Hershey week and as museums go it is pretty nice. They do have several significant cars and all I could think about was how nice it would be to see the 1915 Stearns-Knight touring or the Model K Ford out on the road roaming around the Pennsylvania countryside. Cars are supposed to be driven not condemmed forever to static displays. Alan

Simon, To start with your link is not working but I think I figured out which picture you are referring to. If this is the correct picture it is not a 1912 Stanley but rather a 1908 Stanley Model K. I happen to know because I am sitting in the drivers seat just after taking it for a run. It is not my car and belongs to a friend who was generous enough to let me drive it. This particular car was formerly owned by Melton, Rockfeller, and Harrah and is one of the 3 known originals that exist of 25 that were built in 1908. The Model K is a 30 hp car and performs very well. It has long legs and cruises nicely at 55 mph. The performance of a steam car is like nothing else. The man who owns this car always tells the gas car gents that they just got ?half a ride?. You have to get behind steam to get a full ride. I think your plan to produce a coffin nosed Stanley has some merit and there are several Model K?s in existence that have been assembled from a mix of new and original Stanley parts. Due to the rarity of 30 hp engines several of the assembled cars are based around the more common 20 hp Stanley engine. Many of the casting patterns and parts are available to assemble these cars. Personally a market of 50-75 cars at $85,000+ seems like a bit of a stretch to me. I am not a big fan of your Locomobile project mainly because it is not a car that is practical for road use. But the way you are marketing it and the goal of mass-producing 100 cars at a realistic cost makes sense. I would suggest that you should consider another coffin nosed Stanley that is just as exciting as the Model K but a somewhat simpler car and should be more economical to produce than a Model K. The car I have in mind is the Stanley H5 more commonly know as the ?Gentleman?s Speedy Roadster?. See the links for a picture of one of the existing cars. I think if you do a bit of research you will find that this car is not a lot more complicated than the Locomobile your are producing but it has a 20 hp engine and boiler and drives very well. This is smaller car than a Model K and is not as long legged but it handles amazingly well and is still quite powerful. If you could produce these cars for something nearer to the cost of a Locomobile I think you would have a lot of interest. A lot of the casting, parts, and patterns are also available for the H5?s and that may help with the preliminary planning for a production run. H5 Picture 1 H5 Picture 2 I will be interested to know what type of interest you have for a coffin nosed Stanley Project. I know steam cars are very popular right now and getting more cars on the road has to be a plus. <span style="font-weight: bold">Alan</span>

McMaster-Carr does carry a limited selection of gear sets. They have one in a 3 to 1 ratio that might be good for a smaller car. It may not be big enough in your situation. Someone you might check with is a company named REMPCO in Cadillac, MI (www.rempco.com 1-800-736-0108). I met Gilbert Hall at Hershey in his space in the Red Field last year and he has a commercial machine shop but is an old car guy and machines parts for cars. He made a worm gear (see pictures) that we needed for our Stanley at a reasonable cost and turned it around quickly. I would contact him and see if he can do what you need done. Alan

The owner reports a compression reading that of approximately 45 psi. But the reason for wanting to know the compression ration is to try and determine what the compression pressure should be. A Model T Ford in good shape will run about 50-60 psi and the compression ratio on those engines is approximately 4 to 1. 90-100 psi would be much too high for a Hupmobile of this era. I would expect the compression ratio to be on the order of 4 or 5 to 1. The only car of this ear that had a very high compression ratio was a Mercer Raceabout. They used something like a 6 to 1 compression ratio. Alan

I am trying to determine what the compression ratio a 1912 Hupmobile should be. This is for a friend and the engine is assembled so taking measurements would be difficult. If anyone answer the question it would be a big help. Alan

Howard, Thanks for the information. I finally got to talk to someone at national headquarters later in the day. I got the form submitted last night electronically so I hope it won't take to long to get it processed and get the information needed for the flea market spaces. Alan