ramair

I would guess 100K or more to restore

A.J & Ed , on my recently acquired Packard I found the most complicated solution to a simple problem, I call it a gift from a previous owner. When I did my repurchase inspection the car started normal for a twelve. Starter turn slower than what we are use to in the modern world, but it seemed strong and steady and of course with twelve cylinders there’s always seems to be one ready to fire. The previous owner then showed me the “proper way to start it” in the trunk was a beautiful hand made wooden box with a 12 volt battery that was connected to a “ford” type solenoid directly to the starter, then there was a hidden switch under the dash that was a momentary push bottom that you energized to the starter, I can only imagine what would happen if that solenoid would get stuck. So all that was stripped out of the car. So we needed a extra 18” of battery cable to locate my disconnect switch as we pulled off the old fat cable we spotted what caused a previous owner to go to this crazy unsafe solution, the cable looked big but the thickness was the rubber insulation, the copper inside was no bigger than a cable you would buy at a discount auto parts. I will take a picture of the evidence and post later in the week.

I agree with Grimy, I am in the process of moving the heavy duty disconnect switches to inside the cab under the seat or to the vertical seat riser. I have my 15 Buick, 28 Buick and 36 GMC all set up that way. I have the switch offset towards the passenger door. I mark were it goes by setting in the drivers seat and then reach down with your right hand and mark the spot. On each of those vehicles the battery is near by under the floor boards and does not require a lot of routing to get it hooked up. Perfect time to check and make sure you have the heaviest copper battery wire both positive and negative. I can’t wait to do my Packards as the super 8 has the disconnect on the left side under the hood and the twelve has it on the right side under the hood, both cars have side mounts. Typically I will jump in the car and turn on the key, with no results, jump out of the car and carefully open the hood trying not to scratch or chip the paint on the hood or the sidemounts, after successfully accomplishing that it’s then I realize that I opened the wrong side again……….. repeat…………. The Packards do not have a seat riser so I will have to mount the switch through the floor board, I will find a spot far enough under the seat that it can’t be seen, but not so far back that I can’t get to it. By the way these heavier switches are also waterproof , I became familiar with them on some of our Caterpillar tracklayers, originally made by Cole-hersey, you can’t believe the environment they survived in

Blue devil, looks like your in this “Hook, Line and Sinker”😁

I can’t help but see the similarities between antique boat collecting/ restoring and antique car collecting/ restoring. In antique cars you can “go underwater figuratively and of course with boats it can be literally and figuratively! A.J. There is one advantage to the boat, if you do drown at least you don’t have to keep writing out restoration checks

Cy, I do not have any practical experience with your predicament, however you might want to talk with Scott Henningsen in Speckles California. As you may know he currently makes an exact reproduction Detroit Lubricater Carburetor for Cadillac V-12 & V-16 along with late twenties and early thirties Packard. He sometimes can rebuild your core, but many of those cores are starting to distort. These new carburetor’s will never do that, plus you will reduce your chances of a fire. Last time I checked he is nearing 200 new Carburetor’s and he puts them on a test engine when done. Full disclosure, I do not receive any financial gain if you buy a carburetor, however I might get a glass of wine 🍷 if you do

Well everyone thinks they know what RamAir stands for and why I chose it and you would be wrong. I was always into old cars even when I was eight I got my first truck, it was my grandfather 1932 International, I accumulated a few others along the way including antique tractors. Fast forward a few decades, most of what I had I could not drive anywhere and my real love of classic prewar was out of my price range with 4 kids. About 15 years ago I decided to look for a 1968 Oldsmobile Toronado as I had owned a couple of them in my high school days. One of the cars that I owned in the seventies had the rare W-34 high output option, which they only built 111 of them. My new Toronado is also a W-34 so what are the odds of that, the issue is Oldsmobile called it, “Force Air Induction” and when I would tell people that they would say oh you mean RamAir

This was meant to be, after all it is half way into becoming a “RAT rod”, stench and all

You might get answers from 2 other sites stovebolt and the other is vintage Chevrolet club of America or VCCA, I had much help from this forum also, but sometimes you are victim of who is looking at your post at this specific time. Also your title can pull in more readership if you mention it’s a pickup, seems like everyone has a sweet spot for an old pickup. I enclosed a shot of my recently restored 1936 GMC 1/2 ton with the help of my friends here and all over the US

I think that is a wise decision, I don’t believe mice bite, but rats might!🐁 I am unsure of how many miles that car is from me, but when I see that interior shot, I can smell it from here

I also will pass, I have decided to turn over a new leaf, recently on this forum I was told that I may not be taking good enough care of my collection as I might have to many vehicles and quite possibly am showing hoarder tendencies . This really is requiring a lot of soul searching, to think all these years as I collected 9 Olds Toronado’s I thought I was saving them from the “Hoarder’s? i looked up the definition of hoarding and maybe I am not to far gone, it said that hoarders have trouble letting go of their possessions, well I have given up a lot of my money to the restoration Gods, I Am Cured ! When does the auction end?

Here are a few pictures of a disassembled twelve a few interesting features of this engine , you will notice that the valves come into the top of the block at almost horizontal, Packard then angles down the block so it is one of the few engines that top of block was not 90 degrees to the bore, in the old days it required a special wedge plate to be able to use a boring bar. There is a theory that Packard did this to be able to run compression ratio up to 7 to 1 , most flat heads require room for the valve to open hence low compression ratio. Last picture is a slightly worn timing cover, you can see the pitting caused by corrosion,

These engines really were built wonderfully. At the factory after assembly they would put them on a test stand and power the engine with an electric motor for 100 hours, then they would run it on its own power for a 100 hours. The engine was then disassembled and inspected for wear or problems. The next step was to install the engine in its chassis, a test engineer would then put some miles at the Packard proving grounds, I have been told that all twelves were given a sticker in the glove box with a engineers signature, I would love to see one of those. if these cars are driven regularly and properly maintained they were good for over a 100,000 miles when other engines would have worn engine at 50,000. There are a couple of issues that happen to these engines over the years that can be a killer, both caused by neglect or deferred maintenance. These engines really needed their oil pans dropped every year or two as sludge is the enemy of the valve silencer system. Packard put a lot of moving parts in the valve train, which was a system that they paid Cadillac a royalty on. I’ve been told that if you lay out all the pieces including the roller cam followers and pull out all the needle bearings and count all pieces the number is 1,200. Then imagine this all sits on a shelf at the heart of the engine most of the time in a pile of sludge that requires a lot of disassembly to get to. To me what has damaged a lot of these engines has happened because owners do not realize that the front timing cover and heads are aluminum which requires extra diligence in keeping the coolant filled with proper anti corrosion chemicals. Many twelves have had replacement iron heads installed, but the silent killer is the timing cover as when they eat through you now have mixed oil and water which makes short order of the engine mechanicals. It is a major job to replace it and I believe there is only one guy making that part which requires huge amount of machine work. Roughly $5,000 for the part and probably similar amount to install. I won’t bore this group unless asked, with all the details and differences that create huge problems during the machining and overhaul of this engine. Ten years ago there were maybe 10 people that could be trusted to do this engine right, now there are maybe 6. I know a couple of owners that have done the work themselves, I think to myself that they should probably go to Vegas while they still have that level of luck. I bet that if you had a engine that needed everything including crankshaft work a machinist could put in close to 500 hours into the overhaul. There are a few restoration guys on this forum that play in the works if the twelve, perhaps they have a story or two?

Unfortunately I do not believe it will ever be back in the road, as one of my friends that has a great admiration of the other fine motor car make that begins with a P would say it’s a “parts car”. Some would say that right off the bat that I am comparing a early twelve to late one and there is no comparison and they would be right as far as value when restoration is complete, but not by much as we are talking about a non open top car. i just wanted to stress that the above car as nice as it looks in the photo would eat $175,000 and still not be a really nice car, so where does that put one with the auction car above💸💸💸💸. The happy ending for me is finding the almost same car that happens to be a low mile 37,000 mile car that was delivered new a the same Earl C Anthony dealership the same month that my first car was.

As some of you may know I have a soft spot for Packard and specifically Packard twelve club sedans ( sorry Ed but it starts with a p) . I have changed my opinion of what is savable and what is not. I started. Looking for a twelve 30 years ago and never could find one that I could afford, ultimately I bought a junior Packard , some other opportunities came along and I added to the stable, nothing in the class and value of a Twelve. Around 9 years ago I decided to get serious and buy a twelve before I would be too old to enjoy it. I looked and looked, not many came up for sale , finally one was available, I liked the color and its pedigree as it was owned at one time by the Cars and parts magazine owner, it started, drove and looked decent, the deal was made, it was a twenty footer but it was mine and I was happy for about 600 miles when the engine gave out, unfortunately in that 600 miles I found other issues that did not appear on that fateful day when I bought it, I found it had the infamous case of the death wobbles, I thought it was just a matter of worn front end. As I started down the road of fixing that we found that the front end was damaged in a previous crash. Brakes where worn out , transmission case was cracked , clutch and brake boosters where leaking, the roof fabrics needed to be done, some chrome pitting and the paint needed some touch up. Let’s do the math using worse case scenario, engine $70,000 chrome. $30,000 top. $5,000 paint. $30,000 gauges wood grain $7,500 uohostery update. $15,000 Front end repair. $9,000 so I started on it and decided that it made no sense to continue. I did always want a twelve but I had no emotional connection with this car, so why commit to this level. The story has a good ending for me, not for the car. I decided to be patient and wait for another twelve, this time I knew what can get you in trouble. I found a perfect twelve, we have been working on it for 5 weeks to do all the deferred maintenance. Not one unexpected bad thing has happened and yet these are complicated cars with parts made out of unobtanium. I believe we are at 160 man hours (pardon, not PC) I guess what I am saying is even if you find something 5 times nicer than this car at auction it will still take your breath away before your done. I will post I picture of the car that taught me a life lesson

Chuck, I will take it, do you want to PM me

I have a 93 Northstar, the reason I bought the 93 is the brake issues on the 92 and older. I had a short lived ownership with a 91, the shop spent a fortune without getting it dependable. For those that do not know the earlier Allante comes standard with the Tevese/ Bosch antilock brake system, it is not an add on device , it consists of a electric high pressure pump that fills a accumulator with brake fluid, when you apply pedal pressure the fluid is released proportional to wheels that have the most traction, it is high maintenance and you can prolong the inevitable by changing brake fluid every year. Great system , it can stop a car from 60 mph in 125’, the bad news is no new parts are made and only a limited amount of rebuilt parts are available through Allante club. Another issue is no one works on them and they are so different than any other system. I really have had no issues with the Northstar and if I do someday it is unlikely that a engine that would need repair is not likely to possibly kill me,

True I have 7 antique vehicles and just like a favorite girlfriend sometimes we are with one more than the rest. Another issue is I would rather leave one parked for a couple of months than take it out and not be able to drive it for 30 miles to be sure to get all the condensation out. I am very religious about keeping my gas tanks topped off. Whenever I get down to 3/4 of a tank I fill up. My 93 Allante and my 68 Toro gets 500 miles a year each my Packards do about 300 , right now my 36 GMC has done close to 2000 miles since restored 2 years ago. My 1915 and 1928 Buick are used the least. I would like to drive every one of them more, but I work full time and I drive about 35,000 miles per year , would use my antique’s for work but I am a farmer

I do not know about the engine durability, but here in California our pump gas will go bad in less than a year, so I would say that in your state if you can get regular pump gas without the corn alcohol (think water) then stick with that as it will keep in your tank and it’s closer to the octane that your car burned when new. Here in California it is a challenge. 7 years ago I pulled the gas tank out of my 1968 olds Toronado to clean it and the inside of the tank looked like stainless steel. Last year my gas gauge stopped working so I dropped the tank and looked inside and the bottom of the gas sending unit was rusted off and the arm and float was at the bottom of the tank, I am not a engineer but………

Hi, what would it cost to sent to 93927 ca ?

Articbuicks, I am curious about the Canadian built twelves. The one that i am referring to is a 1939 coupe with rumble seat, it was bought new by an industrialist in Canada and it is suppose to have the plate. I have been helping the owner sort out a fuel sending unit and I am anxious to get more data on the car, but unfortunately the car has been up on a lift with another car under it so the owner can’t send me serial, engine number ect. I would like to see the plate as I am unsure if I will ever see the one in the coupe. A interesting point about right hand drive twelves, there is a twelve guy that is on different Internet forums that owns a 38 twelve and he claims that Packard never made a right hand drive twelve as the parts book has never showed the steering box for one, not sure if he was referring to later chassis with IFS or maybe all since they have that huge double insulated exhaust header in front of the passenger’s side firewall where the steering column would go. Even though it will never affect me one way or the other I would like to know if this can be substantiated . I have been following twelve since I was twelve years old , now I am 65 and I learn something new about them continually.

In a way I am going to do a deep dive on documentation on the 38 and 39 twelves. This is not to knock the previous roster keepers as I have the upmost respect and admiration of what they did and also taking in consideration that past owners would not provide all the information, example they would join the Packard club in 1970 and only say is was a 1938 sedan with the body serial of 20xx. Then in 2005 a new owner registers the car as a 1938 sedan with engine serial number A600xxx as the firewall decal has been painted over or the local DMV will not except that number, now the question how many 38 sedans do we have? so what I have come up with is chart for each of the body styles for the 38 and 39 production that is subdivided between short and long wheelbase. The chart lists for each car serial tag, theft proof#, engine#, original color if known, current color, pinstripe color, interior color, if 39 is it column shift or cane, car condition, radio?, Heater?, defroster?, banjo?, side mounts?, mouton rug?, luggage rack?, front seat leather or cloth?, if firewall tag is filled out what was the delivery date?, delivery dealer?, delivery state? Last date confirmed to exist?, last owners name and contact which if given will not be shared unless they are Packard club members at their option, notes which would be for documentation of past owners, repairs or modifications. I am making up a nice chart on excel, correction, my daughter is making up a nice chart and I am hoping that this will give each Packard a “ Permanent Record” I also have come to the realization that I will not find and speak with all the owners that I have in the registry for several reasons, number 1 is that I have some car records give the model and serial number and that’s it, so we’re do you start in that? Another reason is the owner says they will help and then all you hear is crickets 🦗. the up side is I have found two cars that we did not know exist and another one that was known but did not have a serial number now it has it back due to some records research below I have a picture of location of engine serial number along with a incorrectly filled out reproduction serial tag, note above the tag you can make out a few numbers of the unique to Packard, theft proof firewall numbers. Each body had its on serial number that was embossed into the metal, I am not sure if a lot of people stole Packards in those days, but if you did and the owner had his theft proof number written down he could identify his car even if serial tag was defaced. I doubt it was utilized. So my plea for help and some old membership books would be great

Thank you, I will continue looking in other countries, I have discovered a 38 twelve in the UK , that was a lot of fun for me as I was able to help the owner discover his serial number for his car. For those that do not know, Packard for some reason chose to put the serial number of the car on the firewall using a sticker instead of a metal plate. I suppose they felt it would last the life of the car, pretty sure the management at Packard did not expect or maybe even wanted their cars surviving 80 or more years and of course now we have many 1938 Packards that are registered with their engine serial number as Packard did not stamp the frame or anything else. However Dave Mitchell told me that on the senior series car, the upholstery crew at the factory would use some of the body serial number and apply it to the inside of door or kick panels with a grease pencil so that the pieces would go to the right car during assembly . The owner in the UK found the panel with the number on it, so mystery solved, I also found a Canadian built twelve, which dispels an old tale that they did not build twelves up there. Currently I am working with a restoration shop in India on another 38 with a very unique brass plate that looks like either a luxury sale company or a custom body shop applied with no state or country to help. Internet is not coming up with anything, yet! “the games a foot, Watson”

It is a conversation piece as most people under the age of 40 really don’t know what a carburetor is, real funny how older people come into my office and even if they are not mechanically inclined will be curious and ask about it. Under the age of 50 and it must be transparent as they never ask. To answer your question, I rebuilt a lot of components for my Green club while I was waiting for the machine shop to check out that strange little noise coming from my twelve, this is where the slippery slope goes from 10 degrees to 90 degrees. As we all know know one is going to give you an exact rebuilding cost, however shops that have done many successfully can give you some recent examples. If the crankshaft was messed with , like welded improperly or bearings were converted to inserts improperly and possibly dealing with burnt/cracked valve seats, one could hit $70,000.00 if you hit the Loto of problems. If you are lucky and no major damage $50,000.00. On this forum the high cost of doing the twelve has been talked about as there is always someone that says how can that be it only has 4 more cylinders so it should only cost 1/3 more than my SBC. but oh my if you just lay out the valve system with its roller cam with all of the valve silencers and needle bearings, it’s over 1,200 pieces to keep track of. The overall condition on the car was really a twenty footer, so I could see a paint job and interior 💸💸. I waited and checked out twelves as they came on the market and decided on the maroon one. I found that the Stromberg on the maroon car had a leak under the fuel bowl at the drain plug I believe that someone in the past over tightened the plug. We went ahead and used my paperweight and I will have the old one rebuilt and painted and then back on my desk

I have a idea, why don’t you ask Ed and CarbKing the exact same question like if this car was yours what would you do, replace or keep it, if they both agree, you have your answer, now if they disagree flip a coin , as one of them would be wrong. Seriously when it comes to these series Strombergs the two guys I just mentioned know these units , for the most part the rest of us just guess at how this stuff works. Below is my paperweight on my desk, a late production Packard Twelve EE-3 that I had Daytona Carb restore 7 or 8 years ago