AHa

Here is a nice picture of a Knox Grant from the Wilbraham Hill Climb in 1908. Courtesy of Masslive.com

From Wikimedia, here's another car identified as Mercer, probably in the Seattle area.

The problem with these theories is there are no visible joints. Look at the rear of the frame. It appears as though there is one piece construction on the corner. Typically you could see where the back cross member crosses the side member but not in this case. If C channel were placed inside C channel, the top and bottom joint would be visible but no joints are visible. The car appears to be a 1914 or 1915. Look at the hood hold downs. That style didn't appear till that time period. The rear suspension is unique to very few cars. It is the reason I suggested Stoddard Dayton for the chassis. I believe it is one of the few makes that used that platform style of suspension. Notice there is no radiator neck visible.

I'm racking my brain trying to figure out how that frame would have been constructed in 14/15. A boxed frame is usually created by using U channel and welding. Did they have welders back then?

Staver Chicago used an S on the gas tank of their race cars. The chassis is wrong for the early cars but I believe they made a 13/14 that was different. Actually, the rear spring setup suggests Stoddard Dayton.

Al, if you look at Old 16, you will quickly see it was repainted sometime in the past. I would expect the original color to be a factory color because the two cars were produced in the Locomobile factory. I've never seen any documentation on when Old 16 was repainted and cannot comment on the source of the more recent paint. That being said, the lighter color was probably picked so the cars would stand out against a dark background, making them easy to see on the Long Island Parkway. The color change on Old 16 may well have been to differentiate between the two cars. Most of the early pictures of the two cars depict two lightly colored cars, or, at least, two cars of the same color. Locomobile was unique in that they entered two cars in this race, which was permitable at this time.

That's the nice thing about lacquer, it will buff out to like new, but don't put a mechanical buffer on it, you can burn through it in a heartbeat. You have to caress lacquer.

Here is Dark Vermilion in my Proxline Color Book, Acme White Lead and color works. It is paired with Timberline Grey with black and yellow pinstripes. It also has a light vermilion entry.

Check with Jim Wells at Auto Color Library, 858-909-2150. They already have a vast library of factory colors from those years and it is likely they have a formula for your Vermillion Red. When we produce original colors, we do not use offsets (colors selected that appear similar but lack the proper appearance in sunlight). We have a complete lab stocked with the correct toners and metallics to make the COLORS OF YESTERDAY come alive today. Colors are reproduced in our lab using original formulas and standards authentic to the era. Each color order receives a spray-out panel and is CERTIFIED by our LAB to be correct to standard. To order paint , please call : (858) 909-2150 Thanks, Jimmy Chips (Jim Wells earned the nick name Jimmy Chips by buying up all the paint chips he could find)

I found two original paint books at a flea market years ago. They contain paint samples, samples of two tone colors with pinstripes for late teens to early 30s cars. Now if I could only find them. I took the front axle of a car I did with original paint to a PPG paint outlet store (Keystone Automotive) and had them match the paint in Acrylic Enamel. In my case, I wanted to match the paint as it was so they added flattening agent to dull the finish to the right sheen. They did a marvelous job. It really depends on whether you want to restore the car to factory standards or over restore it to today's standards.

What's the dates again?

This model 48 was for sale at Bonham's in Australian back in November. It was a no sale for $42,000.

For comparison to the 1910 speedster posted above, vintage car buyers (vintagecarbuyers.com)has a 1909 model 30 complete and presentable touring for $115,000. These are asking prices and I have no idea what the actual value is but Locomobiles are so rare and as Al and Ed have both suggested, if you want one you have to chase it, and once you find it, you need to pounce, or watch it drive away on somebody else's trailer. Pictures on the website.

Mail slot?

It's the old adage, if you have to ask, you can't afford it. Seriously though, I'm with you, anybody who knows cars knows the price is going to be up there, why not just post it? I'm guessing somewhere around 500k asking.

I don't think it has been mentioned, the car above is listed for sale on the HCCA website for what seems like a ridiculously low price for a 1910. It did not change hands through any kind of back room, super secret, hush, hush deal, just old fashioned first come, first served hospitality. In this case, anyone who saw the ad could have bought the car, and did. No chasing required.

Al, this is the John McAlpin car we discussed at length a couple of years ago. Dragone has a complete write up of the car on their website.

While I'm at it, here are two pictures of the freshly restored second 1906 Locomobile that was raced in the 1908 Vanderbilt cup. For many years, this car was thought to be lost. Locomobile made two race cars in 1906 and raced them together. In 1908, the car now known as Old 16, won the race and this car, numbered 1 in that race, disappeared. It was rumored to have been taken apart and saved as back up parts for Old 16, and passed down owner to owner with Old 16, but there is a second story that says it was pushed off the end of the pier at the Locomobile factory in an effort to clean up out of date inventory. There is one testimony of a second complete motor being seen in Peter Helck's collection. These pictures were posted in another thread by George K.

Joe Puleo posted this picture of the Renault car George Waterman owned. It has been featured before but I don't believe this picture has been shared. The car evidently is not one of the Grand Prix cars pictured above. Joe shared that it is in fact a 35HP car of about 450ci and is patterned after the larger cars. It would be nice to know a little more of its history. Joe has shared that Waterman purchased the car about 1940. Before then?

These two pictures were posted by 1937HD45 on another thread. I don't believe they were ever posted in this thread, I may be wrong. I like having all these early race car pictures in one place.

What an excellent opportunity! Has the owner ascertained what style body would be correct?

I would like to know the story of this Pierce, if anybody can tell it.

Al, it must be a fairly good quality picture. It blows up pretty nicely on my computer. Sure are a lot of suitcases in the back seat.

The work of an engineer. When I was researching Locomobile's racing history, I was struck by how much influence Andrew Riker had in the company. Locomobile had a board of directors and if I am correct, Riker was hired on as chief engineer, but it certainly seems like he ran the company for the time he was there.

You know the old saying, "In order to have an intelligent conversation, you must first define your terms." It really makes no difference what term you use, as long as your audience understands what you mean by it. I'm amazed at how many early locomobiles came with plain leather interiors. For such expensive cars, I would have thought they would all have diamond tuck. Maybe they were striving for "understated elegance."