GLong

I'd replace the cup in the master cylinder. TexasJohn55 stated it right. I've had the identical situation several times. The rubber cup is hard from being old, in a box, on a shelf for too long. Find a new cup that is softer, and has a sharp edge on the outer edge. On many old single cup master cylinders, can be 'made' to bypass fluid past the cup. Just VERY gently push on the brake pedal, if the cup is the least bit hardened, or the edge of the cup where it contacts the wall of the cylinder is rounded and not sharp, fluid will bypass the cup. A rapid 'jab' at the pedal forces the edge of the cup against the cylinder wall. So, even though you had the cylinder sleeved, you reinstalled the culprit: the cup from the previous rebuild kit.. replace it, I'm sure you will have normal acting brakes again. GLong

I will second the installation of a heavy ground cable directly from the battery to a mounting bolt on the starter. This has cured a slow cranking 6v system for me several times. Another thing to check is the brushes on the starter. Make SURE that they move freely in their guides, and that the springs are actually pushing the brushes against the commutator on the armature. I've seen springs that are hung up on the brush holder, or brush wire/connector. With one or more brushes not making contact, it will drastically reduce the starter's rpm and power. GLong

Does the engine turn now? or is it stuck? BIG difference on how to proceed if it's stuck. Regardless of stuck or not, the MMM is a good product to put in each cylinder, and if you can, get some on EACH valve stem you can see through the spark plug hole. I 100% agree to drop the oil pan, clean and inspect oil pump, and dipper rod oil trays. Look at the cylinder walls from below, do you see rust or rusty tracks of liquid that seeped past the rings? if so, you have a likely cylinder head gasket that seeped water or coolant onto the piston, which then let the coolant seep past the rings. The engine will likely need to come apart if you see this. Give us some more info about the car, history, current condition etc.. Where and how it was stored etc. GLong

A 50 mph shimmy is almost always a tire balance problem. Did the car sit ON it's tires when stored? Some tires take a set or flat spot that refuses to return to round.. Lift one front wheel at a time and spin the tire, look for a left right or up down or any irregularity in the revolving tire and wheel. GLong

Pull up the carpeting, replace the jute-fiber backing/soundproofing material. it usually gets damp and will smell for a long, long time, especially when the humidity is high. This carpet padding is available from restoration supply shops. This will also allow you to inspect the floor of the car for unseen rust and corrosion, and fix it before it gets worse. GLong

The worm drive was used in 1933 only. And is is silent when correctly set up. My '33 836 Club Sedan has no gear noise at all. And it has the original 4.28:1 worm gear rear differential. Pierce went back to spiral bevel or hypoid gears for '34. I own several Series 80 cars, and there is no 'normal' engine or drivetrain noise like you described. It could be as described by David an air intake noise, but the S80 did not have an aircleaner from the factory. Only a 'mushroom cap' lid over the intake.. The most likely noise is as you suggested would be tire noise. The fan bearings could make a buzzing sound, as well as a badly worn timing chain. But, in a well set up and sorted out S 80, there are only two normal noises at ~40mph: wind and carb intake noise. I wonder what tires the car has, I have Lester 600x22" on three of my S80's and they are pretty much silent, and BF GoodRich on one other and they too are silent. While I'm not fond of the tire tread pattern on the Lester tires, they are quiet and good on wet pavement. The tread looks too modern for my liking. GLong

Your MUST remove the fuel pump. Buy a rebuild kit, or send the pump to a rebuilder that will replace the old, cracked, split rubber with a pump diaphragm that is compatible with modern ethanol tainted gasoline. If you do not rebuild the fuel pump it WILL let gasoline leak into the crankcase, dilute the oil, causing bearing failure and engine destruction. With the fuel pump removed, you can blow through the metal fuel lines, and replace the soft rubber fuel hoses, the rubber fuel hose will soften and leak just like the pump diaphragm, but the result could be a fire under the hood.. So with an older car it is imperative that any rubber or soft products in the fuel system are replaced with ethanol compatible products. The fuel tank might have a lot of varnish coating the screen or 'sock' over the fuel pickup tube in the tank, you'll have to put some form of gasoline solvent like 'seafoam' in the fuel, and hope that it helps clean it. IF it's clogged or restricted. You can try pulling fuel through the fuel line from the tank and see if it flows well. I'm sure there is a fuel filter in the system somewhere, I'd recommend an easily replaced 'see through' filter before the pump for a year or so, to collect any crud from the fuel tank before it can contaminate the rebuilt fuel pump. The plastic case filters are easy to inspect to see if it needs replacing, Hope this helps. GLong

Year and type of car? There is a big difference to inspect a '20's or '30's car versus a '70's car. GLong

Halon will not [generally] harm paint or plastic. I'm not 100% sure about every surface, but it's just a clear liquid turning to invisible gas, and leaves not residue. Some additional information: Halon has a few 'urban rumors' floating around. One of which is that it's poisonous and will kill a person if inhaled.. this is totally false.. Halon could cause breathing problems, but only if in concentrations several times that needed to put out a fire. In fact, halon is effective at concentrations about 20% of what is effective in fighting a fire. CO2 however IS deadly to us at levels that are NOT effective at fighting a fire. The reason is that CO2 has to displace air with Oxygen to starve the fire of oxygen. But Halon attaches to Oxygen to make is not support a fire, and leaves most air around the person with the extinguisher un altered. I'm from the airline industry, and our yearly fire-fighting training is to stand 8' away from the fire, sweep the ground a few feet in front of us, and walk a few feet forward, by the time we take a pace, the fire is out.. you don't have to actually spray the fire itself, the halon-attached air will be drawn to the fire, and it's out. OK, back to my projects.. GLong

Does the spring do the job needed: return the throttle linkage to idle? Look on the back of the oil filter canister, and see if there is a 'witness mark' on it showing that it was located there. It's possible that the spring is not original, often an extra spring is added to make a linkage work 'better'. But I really don't know for sure on your car. If it works in that position, and doesn't interfere with anything, just install it as is, and you might eventually see another car with the same setup. GLong

I have to agree with John Byrd's comments: I've rarely lost a lot of money on any old car I've owned. But like John, I do most of my own work. I do pay for paint and interior work, but try to avoid cars that need major paint and interior work. Mechanical work is a breeze for me, I love it and it often is a fun challenge to sort out a car with running and driving problems. Automobiles can certainly cost a lot if you have bad luck or bad diagnosis for some problem the car has when you buy it. If a person buys the latest 'hot' collector car, and hopes to ride it's popularity, well that's JUST THE SAME as buying stock when they are hot, assuming that they will continue to climb in value. Timing 'hot' collector car purchase and selling, is just as dangerous as timing 'hot' stock purchasing and selling.. Just like with stocks: buy cars that are solid, drivable, and reasonably priced, and wait, and enjoy. At least cars you can take out and drive, enjoy and share.. not something you'd likely do with your stock portfolio. :-) AND a big item is that car collecting is a social hobby, meeting new people is something I look forward to at every event. GLong

Every car, even new should have a fire extinguisher.. Unless it's just 'another set of wheels' and it's insured and you don't really care if it becomes a pile of ashes and molten metal and plastic. While a dry chemical fire extinguisher is better than nothing, it is not much better than nothing. They are a dry-powder blanket. Meant to smother a fire. But if you have a bunch of plastic wiring insulation on fire under your instrument panel, or a fire on top of your old car's gas tank, you CAN NOT get the dry chemical where it will be effective. Only a very large CO2 extinguisher or a Halon/Halotron extinguisher will do the job. There IS A REASON that the FAA only certifies HALON fire extinguishers for airplanes. Because they WORK. I've had this discussion many times with owners of nice old cars, and often hear the complaint that 'The Halon extingushers are TOO expensive'.. My response is: HOW much is your car worth?? will you be able to restore it, or replace it for what it's insured for? Just how much would you spend to NOT have to even TALK to your insurance agent?? A few hundred dollars for the best fire extinguisher available is CHEAP !! A Halon extinguisher is very effective because it attaches to the Oxygen in the air, rendering it unable to support combustion. The chemical does not have to touch the fire to be effective, it only has to be sprayed around or near the fire, the 'treated air' is pulled to the fire and will cause the fire to go out due to lack of oxygen. A wood fire, or burning cloth will have red-hot embers and will be able to reignite if the embers are not put out by liquids, or crushing under foot or isolation from the heat and fuel for the fire. What I mean is don't assume the fire will not reignite once the flames are gone.. NEVER turn your back on a fire, keep watching it for new flames, this is with ANY fire extingusher, with the exception of a fire hose/garden hose. All my doors to my shop, my house, my kitchen, and bedrooms have a halon extinguisher nearby. Why the doors? Because if you run from a fire, you will exit via a door, or if approaching a fire, you will go through a door. For me, it's the Logical place to put an extinguisher. In the kitchen: NEVER over or under or next to the stove.. always away from the stove, so you can get away from the flames and get the extinguisher without getting burnt. For your car, a small spray-paint can size Halon in your glove box is 1000 times better than nothing.. a 2.5# in a bracket on the floor under your seat, in the trunk or ? will do the job. Ok, sorry for the long 'rant'. But I've felt the helpless/hopeless terror of seeing a fire take a car, a house, trailer etc.. GLong

I only have a few advertisements from Long Manufacturing. This was a family business, but not my part of the Long family. I think my father said it was his fathers uncle or ? Long Manufacturing made clutches, the clutch business was sold to Borg Warner, Long Radiators continued a bit longer. Pierce Arrow used Long Clutches and Radiators in the early '30's. And there were a lot of ads in trade publications about the Speed and Endurance records made on the Salt Flats with the '33 pierce V12's using Long Clutches and Long Radiators. Anyway, if anyone does have a Long Manufacturing Catalog, I'd be interested in purchasing it or a copy of it. Thanks GLong

My Buddy found a truck to play with. Thanks for the many suggestions and links. GLong

Hi Jeff, I'm sorry I can't be more help, I have seen the same photos you see here. If you find out more by calling the seller, I'll be interested to read about the car and the parts he's selling. GLong

Hi Jeff, yes I remember going gor a short drive with you at the Gathering at Gilmore. I don't know anything about the Peerless items. You'll have to call the seller. I'm merely the guy posting the photos for the guys without internet and computers. I think the frame is also Peerless, but not sure. Good luck with the Peerless parts !! GLong

Never damaged a ring gear in over 50 years of playing with engines !! Glong

i think it should stay on the General forum: this points out just how good some 'inspections' are !! or are NOT. That amount of rust damage should have been visible when the car was up on the lift being inspected. All cars are subject to rusting away of frame members, they are especially bad about rusting inside closed box sections with no water/salt water drains. GLong

Change it to 12v: it will start better! Put a modern engine in it ! Those old engines are unreliable! Get rid of those points and condenser! Put it a 'reliable' electronic ignition! Why pay for Leather?? This new Vinyl looks JUST LIKE leather ! Chrome it! That nickel is always needing polishing! GLong

MRcvs: very glad to hear of your success! It's pretty amazing how the inside surface of a battery clamp can look clean, and look like metal, yet be nothing but non-conductive corrosion !! So, you probably have a similar issue with the lights and horn. There should be a main wire feeding a fuse box? I'm not sure if the Model A had a dedicated fuse panel. But somewhere, either from the [-] battery connection, or the [-] cable connection at the starter, there should be a wire, a bit smaller in diameter than a pencil, that provides power for everything in the car: horn, lights etc. Find and follow this wire to a fuse panel, or to the light switch and see what is amiss. Being a Vet, you have lots of experience using the process of elimination to solve problems, cars are much the same as animals, they are both 'mechanisms' that need certain things to operate: the animal: blood to circulate oxygen to the brain and body, Heart to circulate it. kidneys and liver to clean and purify, alimentary canal for food and waste. The engine is quite the same, just takes a different thought process. Glad you got the car out and running!! Congrats ! GLong

mrcvs: you cannot get a starter motor to turn using a battery charger, it pulls 100's of amps. A battery charger is usually 10-20 amps maximum. So: use jumper cables and a battery, not the charger. OK, another few items: when you have the starter out of the car, can you see the gear on the flywheel where the starter's gear engages? Take a large screwdriver, prybar,, crowbar, or whatever you have, and try to turn the flywheel prying against the teeth on the flywheel. It should move fairly easily, remember, normally you can spin the motor with a hand crank on the front of the engine. If the flywheel won't turn, the problems are in the engine. If the flywheel moves freely, then lets move on to the starter. With the starter on the work bench, can you physically pull out on the gear that is on the starter shaft? I don't know if your starter has a lever that throws the gear into the flywheel, or if it has a 'bendix' drive that uses the rotation of the starter motor to throw the gear into the flywheel. I don't remember working on a Model A starter. But either way, the gear must be able to be engaged with the flywheel teeth. I'm gonna back track to the battery: Do you have a voltmeter? a VOM: Volts/Ohms/meter. You need to check the 'fully charged' battery. New batteries CAN be bad, it's very rare in my experience, but it can happen. Your new battery when hooked up should turn on your headlights, honk the horn etc.. if not, then it's NOT hooked up. Do you have a camera, and could you take a photo of the ends of your battery cables?? Is the negative one, the one going to the starter, does it have a clamped on battery cable connector that hooks it to the battery post?? is it the type with two bolts, usually 7/16" through a flat strap that clamps the copper wire of the cable to the battery clamp? If so, remove the cable from the clamp and clean it and replace it. If it is green or white with crusty corrosion, the clamp will not conduct the electricity. Now, for the other, the + cable, is it clean and shiny inside, where it goes over the [clean and shiny] positive battery post.. I mean CLEAN!! U use a pocket knife to scrape the inside of the battery clamps.. they can LOOK like nice gray lead, but are hard crusty corrosion, and once you scrape the inside of the clamp it's obvious it's NOT lead, it needs to be CLEAN, and the same for the battery post.. I've pulled many a battery cable off of a 'dead' battery, scraped the inside of the clamp, scraped up the sides of the battery post all around the post, cleaning multiple stripes on the post, reinstalled the CLEAN, metal to metal connectors, NOT CORROSION TO CORROSION, and whallah !!! the battery is NOT dead, just can't make a connection through the gray, hard corrosion inside the battery cable end. Your battery, from post to post should measure 6.2 volts minimum. A lead-acid battery cell makes 2.1v so 6.3 is resting voltage.. if your battery is bad, it will read: 2.1, or 4.1, or something less than 6.3. BUT my bets are on the battery cable clamps having a layer of corrosion you didn't recognize. Now, as for education: while good vocational schooling, starting at high school does go a LONG way towards being able to understand and fix cars, it is NOT what you missed that is frustrating you now.. What you missed is hands-on experience with cars and machinery. This is what you are getting NOW: hands-on training on your Model A, battery connections, cables, starters etc.. so when you encounter someone else with similar problems, you will have the experiences from your car, and can share, and help.. just like we on this forum are helping you now. So: don't [if you can] get frustrated: just look at it as an opportunity to LEARN.. and once you hit the starter, and the engine turns over, and fires off, you will have a silly grin on your face that won't go away for an hour.. the feeling of accomplishment is hard to get any other way. GLong

Get someone to help, you depress the starter, so it's engaged and trying to turn the engine, have someone else attach a 12v battery to your 6v with jumper cables. Do this ONLY while you are attempting to start the car. DO NOT leave the 12 battery and jumper cables attached after you disengage the starter. I'm fearing that you have other problems, probably related to the freezing of the engine.. Does the starter turn the engine over at all? Your description says: 'whirr, whirr'. to me that sounds like the starter is turning, but the starter's gear is NOT engaging the flywheel, and turning the engine over. Could you give a more 'technical' description of what does happen when you try to start the engine?? GLong

Yep, head over to Harbor Freight, get one of the two fiber-optic cameras they have for sale. I'd recommend the more expensive one, it has a 5/16" diameter end, with light and camera lens. It will fit through modern 14mm spark plug holes, and even through the small mid '30's Packard 10mm spark plug holes. The less expensive fiber optic camera has a 5/8" diameter light and lens. so it barely fits through the large 18 mm spark plug holes. Then: make a temporary pull-rod, with the correct 'hook' or bent 90* end on it, tape the fiber optic flex cable to the rod so you can see the bent end, then feed the pair through the access hole, looking for the arm to feed the bent end of the rod through, then pull on it.. OR: hire some skinny guy to put HIS hand and arm into the access hole and pull on the lever. GLong

Clean shiny cable ends and battery posts. The other end of the battery cables must be attached to clean, not rusty, connections on the frame or engine block and the starter. Corrosion and rust are the usual cause of what you describe. The odd thing is that the second battery also had the same problem trying to turn over the engine. Have you put a hand crank on the engine, and tried to turn it over to see how difficult the engine turns? Since we don't know where you are located, and where the car was stored, I'll as a scary question: are you sure the coolant/antifreeze was concentrated enough to not freeze when the temps in much of the north half of the country went to -20*F. ? If the engine froze, you may be dealing with some problems inside the engine. Such as: a cracked cylinder that is full of coolant? GLong

I'm posting these parts for sale for a gentleman that doesn't have a computer. I'm told these are from a 1923. The engine is free-turning. There is also a steering gearbox. The seller's name James Ballew his phone# 706 258 3835 The parts are in North Georgia, about 40 miles north of Atlanta. The price is $3500 or best offer. Hopefully this will help both the seller, and someone who needs or wants some Peerless parts.