1912Staver

I agree there is a need for something better than EBay or Craigslist. Craigslist sellers are often wary of a potential buyer that they cannot meet face to face and receive cash from. Infact there was a interview with a local Police officer a couple of days ago on the local TV news advising potential Craigslist sellers to treat ANY non local inquiry as a scam. EBay has deteriorated markedly in the last year or so. Unless you are in the market for offshore aftermarket junk. The listings for genuine old car hobby market items appears to have have fallen off significantly. Perhaps it's the econamy; but for the sort of things I am looking for {mostly mid teen's parts but also 60's sports car parts}, EBay is becoming a waste of time. Lets hope that a old car hobby system evolves. There are still many somewhat incomplete/ unfinished projects out there. All the best Greg in Canada

Hi, it's a Buick model 45. 1918- 1920. The sheet metal looks savable. There are quite a a few survivors of this model, so someone might be interested in what's left. Greg in Canada

Hi, the rotary valve concept has been tried by quite a number of engine builders. Technical problems, particularly combustion deposits building up on the valve disk have been the concepts undoing. Sleeve valve engines face the same sort of problems {Knight engines, Bristol aircraft engines}. So far its' been hard to beat the poppet valve, although there have been many attempts to develop an alternative. All the best Greg

Hi everyone. definitely a Staver. I think it's probably a 1914 model {last year of Staver production}. It could be a prototype built and licenced in 1913 to test out the upcoming 1914 changes. The fact it is Lh. drive, plus the radiator shape,electric lights and the 3/4 rear springs {as opposed to fully elliptic as used by all 1912 Stavers and all but one 1913 model} all suggest 1914 . This body style doesn't show up in the 1914 Staver sales catalog, so it may be a "special" built by Dan Teetor for his own use or as a development car. Great Photo! Greg in Canada

Hi, rear spring set up and radiator are very similar to Staver Chicago. But several details are somewhat different. Both Marion and Mason also used a similar rear spring arrangement . Can you supply any other photo's? Thanks Greg in Canada

Hi group, I spotted a photo on THE OLD MOTOR photo posting site {first class site, highly recommended} which shows a very similar engine being used to power the snow blower section of a circa 1920's large self propelled snow blower. These engines are big, I have seen one near to me in British Columbia Canada. With the possible exception of Fire Trucks I doubt they were intended for road vehicles. An industrial use {such as a mine pump unit} seems like a far more likely original use. They are sure an impressive power unit, I would love to have one for my collection. I make my living as a Marine Engineer so I am used to operating and maintaining marine diesel power plants of 6000 + H.P. Even though units like this T head are small in comparison to the ones I see on the job, they are a great reminder of our industrial past. I hope it is returned to running condition. Best regards to the new owner Greg in Canada

I have generaly found the early White gas cars to be good buys. The steamers are definitely in a different league price wise. The G and GA Whites are very well built cars, but don't seem to attract the $60,000.00 + prices that most equivalent Brass cars realize. About a year or so ago one that was about 3/4 restored sold on EBay for around $12,000.00. It seemed like a very attractive price. I have seen a few other older restoration cars in the 30-40 thousand range, pretty reasonable in my opinion. Almost all that I have seen are tourings, which are not as attractive as some of the sports models from other manufactures. The body styling on the 1915 era cars was very advanced , and looks as modern as many other early 1920's cars. { not always a good thing in today's market, people usually want antique cars to look as old as possible} In my opinion they are a better buy than a similar year Cadillac or other upper middle quality car. Greg in Canada

Hi Dave and all. I notice the Overland auction ended today with a final price of $8350.00. Not the deal of a lifetime perhaps, but not outrageously high either. Should be a lot of fun for someone. They are very pretty little cars when done. Esp. the roadsters. Any chance that was you Dave , or are you still looking? Greg in Canada

Hi everyone. I agree with everything sfbeatle says. Any vintage car requires a large comitment of time, money etc. And in the case of the Brass Era cars the time component can be very large indeed. Only the Model T Ford has reasonably good "off the shelf" parts availability. Virtually anything else will require a lot of legwork on the part of the owner {or a owner with deep enough pockets to hire someone to do the legwork for him}. I am now 10 years into my own project, with probably {if I am lucky}another 10 to go. Certainly there are times I question my sanity for getting involved with such a large project. On the other hand at the end I will have a much higher quality car than I could have possibly afforded to have bought as a turnkey vehicle. And in the process I have developed my own skills conciderably. As well I have met and interacted with a great group of like minded Brass Era people who have offered a lot of advice and assistance. I just hope I am able to drive the darned thing before I need a day pass from the nurseing home to do so. If anyone of us looked at our old car hobby involvement from a "common sense" viewpoint I doubt many would be able to justify it. The hobby has changed so much from the days of finding an old relic in a barn and tinkering with it to make it run again. A lot of the same motives still remain , preserve a part of our past, do something with our own hands, etc. But the cost involved has skyrocked. There are few if any easy fix up barn finds remaining. The unrestored cars available today are generally a far more involved undertaking than the ones average old car guys took on 40 or 50 years ago. But the thing to keep in mind is that it can still be done! Not every old car needs to be a $75,000.00 ++ pro restoration. There is still room for the average Joe in the old car hobby, it just takes time, persistance, and at least some money. Greg in Canada

Hi Dave. The Overland looks like a great project. Dont get your hopes of a bargin too high however. The last one { a few months ago}, which was in more or less the same condition went for something like $10,000.00. These brass era Overlands are quite good cars , and have a lot of interest . I would definately try to pay a visit with the owner, even if it is a long drive. It is rare to find any fairly complete 1912 era project for less than $10,000.00. Overlands were very popular cars and have survived in good numbers. This car looks like a great candidate for a 1st. brass era car. Unfortunately there are probably quite a number of other would be purchasers that are thinking the same thing. Good luck! Greg in Canada

I think this engine is from the Frontenac racing car, circa 1915 -1925. I dont belive there was any connection with the De Vaux / Frontenac , other than the use of the same name. P.S. there was also a Frontenac in the early 1960's. It's a Canadian version of the Ford Falcon. They were rarely seen here in the West altough they may have been more popular in Central / Eastern Canada. Lots of Falcons however! Hope this helps, Greg in Canada.

Layden has it right. Note the front doors {first appearance 1912}, and the fact you can still see where the front floorboards are on the cowl in front of the door. For 1913 Ford cleaned up the body pressings and made the side of the cowl smooth. So definately 1912. Hope this helps, Greg in Canada

Hi, it looks like a brute! I suspect it might be Fire truck. Even the large commercial trucks of this time seemed to favor 4 cyl. engines. Anyone know of a standard truck that used a BIG six like this? The engine in my 3 ton Packard dosen't hold a candle to this one. Mind you I would to have an example of it's 4 cyl. little brother for a different{than the Packard} project. Greg in Canada

Hi Oracle and others. I see you have revised your 1922 Mclaughlin Buick first apearance date. I suspect 1924 may be the first year the enamaled radiator badge was changed to Mclaughlin Buick. I have never seen one on a 23 or earlier car, but I suspect this was amended for the all new 1924 offering. The badge fixing changed from small pins with coresponding holes in the steel shell to a single larger hole and soldered on mild steel disk device on the badge itself. The pressed aluminum hubcaps on my 1918 Mclaughlin E6-45 special 5 Pas. touring are marked Mclaughlin Buick. The radiator badge and serial plate on the toe board simply say Mclaughlin {carriage company on the serial plate}. I doubt the hubcaps have been changed . The car was in storage since the early 1930's before I aquired it, and the hubcaps looked like they had been in place for a long time when the car was in use. { Hub grease forming a even coating on both hubs and hubcaps}. Most of the series D{1916-17} cars I have seen have hubcaps that only say Mclaughlin. So I would say by the late teens there was a move toward using the Mclaughlin Buick brand. I belive the hubcap thread diameter is bigger on the series E cars compared to the series D. So if new dies were required it made scence to use the new company designation. Hope this helps Greg in Canada

Fitting more modern brakes to Brass Era cars is generaly a good idea. Especialy when it is as nicely done as the setup in the photo above. I am sure people have fitted brakes to Model T front axles, but I personaly dont think it is a good idea. The Model T front end has a hard enough time keeping the wheels pointed where the driver intends as it is. Placing the added stress of front wheel brakes is simpley asking too much of an already marginal design. The steering system of a model T is particularly under engineered; tie rod failures are not unknown, even without the added stress of braking forces. Just look at the front end of a Model A. They have a good front brake system, and they show the amount of strengthing Ford themselves found necessary to safely fit front brakes. Greg in Canada

The underlay is very similar to roofing felt. For some of the more popular cars it is available pre cut ,ready to install. I know early Riv's. are becoming quite popular so these pads are possibly available from repro parts vendors. They would be pretty easy to make yourself, probably at a much lower cost than a ready made part. Most people consider a {Factory} shop manual invaluable, myself included. Greg in Canada

Actually $50,000.00 sounds like a GOOD price in this econamy. And restoration costs would be easily double. These cars have a very complicated wood structure. For $50,000.00 you can probably get the BEST original survivor in existence, and have a lifetime keeper. These are wonderful cars, but a restoration expense nightmare. For only a little more you start to get into open car territory {well V8 at least}. An open car might come close to paying back restoration costs , especially if long term ownership is in the plan. Greg in Canada

Although I an no expert, 1947 seems a very early date for a McCullough supercharger. Does anyone know when they were introduced to the market? The $800,000.00 price seems a little suspicious. Whats a factory supercharged 57 T Bird going for these days? I can't imagine a pickup selling for much more than a T Bird despite it's alleged extreme rarity. There are lots of very rare cars out there {only known surviving example of a particular Make or model} , but it doesn't automatically make them hugely valuable. Greg in Canada

Prices such as this are indeed good news provided you are either in the auction business or the automobile restoration business. For the rest of us its just another reminder of how far out of reach the "dream" cars of our hobby have become. There are several cars on the auction list that I could have at one time realistically considered becoming an owner of say a #3 condition example. Obviously in my case this is no longer true. I realise the cost of a professional show level restoration is out of this world, but somehow it's a little discouraging to see these cars sell for these amounts. They have become status symbols for the wealthy. For the remaining 90% of us they have become objects we will only know through web sites and magazines.

Actually the last three vehicles look like small trucks. They all have solid rubber tyres. I believe the other two may be Whites. Once again probably quite a small model, perhaps a one ton. The second from last car also has a strong resemblance to a White, perhaps a model GA. All the best, Greg in Canada

Hi, the truck is a Packard. It looks like one of the smaller ones, probably a 1 and 1/2 ton. It is a series D or E built between 1915 and 1918. {brass style rad. rather than cast iron tank[1919 to 1924]}. Hope this helps, Greg in Canada

Hi, this car has been featured in a few club magazines over the years. I believe the make is spelt with a B as in Breese. Hope this helps. Greg

Definitely 6 Cyl. Buick, no newer than 1923. Quite a few of these cars have survived. I would also be interested in it except for the distance involved. I have a 1918 with a so -so frame. I am sure you will find it a good home.

Hi group; regarding Model T speedsters, I get the impression that as long as the majority of the mechanical parts are 1915 or older the car will be considered acceptable . Some local chapters and groups may have more stringent requirements. Accessory wire wheels or demountable rim wheels don't seem to get anyone too worked up. Later electric start blocks would probably be pushing it for general acceptance. I would very much like to have my Brass car completed, but I am in my peak non hobby related expense years. Most of you are familiar, mortgage , dependant children ,etc. All in all a pretty lean period for something as expensive as a Brass Era restoration. I suspect many would be Brass Car enthusiasts are simpley priced out of participating. For the few who can afford them there is a great temptation to collect several, which keeps the price of the ones on the market high. I agree a pretty decent Model T speedster can be constructed for around $15,000.00 ; assuming most of the work is done by the owner, and one already has a reasonably well equipped workshop. But even this represents a pretty hefty outlay for many. I don't see any positive change soon; one thing for sure, the middle class disposable income has just about vanished.

I was brought home in a 49 Monarch, the Canadian version of the 49 Merc. I don't realy remember it as a few years later it was replaced by a 51 Ford. I do remember that one. Then a 54 ford. My father has always had a preference for Ford, even though he worked for a GM dealer for 35 years. He still drives a Ford F150. I have a 1969 Merc Cyclone {428 C.J Ram air} in addition to my early cars. Greg in Canada