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Senior Six Questions for Car and Truck guys

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Hey guys thanks for the help in advance...

 

 I'm doing some study on frame numbers and decided to take a second to ask some questions that have plagued me for quite some time about the Senior Six engine and how they may relate or expand in answering questions in regards to trucks. My apologies if this has been discussed but I couldn't find anything in the search history.

 

When viewing this truck chart I've attached you'll notice that I've highlighted the areas in question that use the 2249's and 2252's. Please use this chart in comparison to what you know in regards to the Senior Six lineup.

 

Questions:

 

1.) In all the highlighted areas, does anyone have any insight or knowledge, guesses.. anything that will shed light on why Senior Six engines were used in these models of trucks? 

NOTE: They are all 2 tons or more capacity rating

 

2.) In the top highlighted area notice the frame or "serial" numbers started with E1001, D1001 and S1001. These are the only trucks produced from July 1927 to May 1928 that had a five digit alpha numerical value to signify serial numbers, but why ? Any guesses..  or have you ever seen anything that can shed light on this ? 

 

3.) What is the wheelbase of the passenger senior six ? Or did they have several different wheelbases depending on model ? (IE coupe, sedan, roadster)

 

4.) Were Senior Sixes only produced in Detroit or other cities such as Evansville, Stockton or the Canadian location ? 

 

5.) Does anyone know if the 2249's or 2252's engine used in cars were completely different than those used in trucks or were their slight variations ? And if so, what were those variations ?

 

Please, if you anything at all please input. Sometimes even the smallest clues can open a door in research. 


Regards,
Dave

Senior Six Questions.jpg

Edited by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

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For Q.1, perhaps the Senior Six engine was the biggest and most powerful Dodge Brothers made then, just before Chrysler took control?

From Allpar.com

image.thumb.png.d76da74132bb2e414ed8c074c3106eaa.png

The 2249, 2251 and 2252 all appear to have the 224.3 ci engine, but the 2251 and 2252 were rated at 68 hp rather than 60 hp for the 2249.

 

3) 116". http://www.geocities.ws/dodgesantigos/DB1928e75e.html?1015480640510

 

See also http://report.oldcarsweekly.com/vehicle/1928-dodge-series-2251-senior-6-cyl-116-w

 

Here is a bit more history about it from https://www.allpar.com/corporate/bios/dodge-brothers.html

image.thumb.png.59ef6eae143e720b0744fc702022b706.png

 

Notice the sentence saying the engine was designed by Dodge Brothers and built by Continental Motors. Can anyone corroborate that?

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

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From the information that I have the 2249 engine was rated at 60 bhp  The 2251 was larger in the bore and was rated at 68 bhp After the Chrysler take over the same engine was tweaked to 78 bhp for the 2252 and the DB 

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10 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Notice the sentence saying the engine was designed by Dodge Brothers and built by Continental Motors. Can anyone corroborate that?

 

I found some interesting references in an old Automotive Industries magazine (dated Feb 1930) that make mention of a Continental 8R that was designed for "car" use in it's application. This is the closest match I could come up with in the Continental line up. The 8R is listed as:

6 x 3 3/8 x 4 1/2 - 27.34 hp  241.6 cu

 

In this same book it shows the Dodge Senior Six but mentions the maker of the engine as "own", suggesting Dodge Brothers were the ones who made the engine.

6 x 3 3/8 x 4 1/2 - 27.3 hp and 241.4 cu

 

Later I did find a truck manufacturer by the name of Guilder that had a truck with 160" wb that used  this same Continental 8R engine that was supposedly used for car applications as previously mentioned but here we find it in a truck application.

 

So it sounds like Continental had produced several different engines at the time for various applications for cars as well as trucks, buses and tractor applications that were being counted with the automobile figures.. I'm counting a total of 24 different Continental engines that were produced for the automobile industry but keep in mind this isn't counting the various industrial or airplane engines that would have also been produced, that would be a separate count. According to this information it is evident that Continental engines would have been used across different platforms and makers so it does seem possible that Continental may have "produced" a engine but with a "Dodge Brothers design". I would say more literature is needed for further proof, just to be completely sure.

 

I don't have any photos or factory literature showing the design of the Senior Six engines. Can someone provide pics of the different variations of the Senior Six engines (2249, 2251 and 2252) so we can compare them with any Continental literature that may be presented ?

 

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I saw something, probably in one of those references above, saying the 2252 was the same as a 2251 but with bigger tires!

 

The posted paragraphs from Allpar.com say the 2249 engine, 224.3 cu. in., was upgraded by Chrysler to 242 cu. in. for the 2251-2. It appears coincidental that Continental also produced an engine that size.

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

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That was in the old cars weekly link you posted:

When equipped with standard size tires, the Senior Six was designated Series 2251; with oversize tires, Series 2252." 

 

I guess that the larger tires may also explain why the truck model chart above only had the 2249 and the 2252 listed. Makes sense I guess.... still wish we had some factory or brochure photos of the Senior Six engines so I can compare them to truck info...

 

I just don't understand why a select few trucks in the D series had a completely different numbering system for the serial numbers for this short period of time. This was the last time they used the Graham Brothers name plates according to the Dodge Story page 64 so maybe that is relevant somehow ? ….. But then the question is, why did it not apply to all D series trucks, why did the shorter serial numbers only apply to the ED, OD, TD, JD and YD ? Could it be because this was the first time a 6 cylinder truck was produced and combined with phasing out the GB name they felt they had to label these completely different? All other trucks prior to the ED were 4 cylinder. Very interesting to say the least...

 

More questions than I'll ever get answers for I guess... As a research nut, it is very disappointing that we cannot get access to the WPC museum to help answer some of these questions that only they know.

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Get a copy of the Dodge Brothers club magazines cd  from the Ddge Brothers club and reserch it . It has the history and all the changes that the Senior  car had done to it in that peroid, your answers are there.

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19 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

 

 

 

Notice the sentence saying the engine was designed by Dodge Brothers and built by Continental Motors. Can anyone corroborate that?

HMM, imagine that. In the Fisher Body thread I did make a mistake saying I thought they were Lycoming engines. I knew they were not a true DB engine but used the wrong company name. I should have said Continental

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JA86 p. 8 is an article about the 1st series Senior owned by a member. It says it has a Continental engine.

SO85 p. 5 reprints an article from Sept 28 1928 about the introduction of the 2nd series Senior. Spec's are given for the engine but not its source - one would assume that to be Dodge.

SO90 has a reprint of an article from 25 Oct 1927 from The Motor of a road test with the new Dodge Brothers Senior. No mention of the source of the engine.

AS95 p. 19 has an article about the advertising of the Senior 1927-28. No mention of the engine being other than Dodge Brothers.

JJ93 p. 26 an article about a restoration. No mention of source of engine.

 

Your turn!

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Thank you Robert B. Not only did they purchase the engines from another source for the Senior line but they admitted using a composite body. This was nothing new to DB even though they condemned wood bodied cars in much of their advertisements. The first body DB built in house was the 1917-18 centerdoor sedan, a wood bodied car. The sheet metal was actually cut with tin snips, you can see the tool marks. Then the Four Passenger coupe in '24 and '25 was wood bodied also, body by Fisher. Kind of contradicting their own philosophy that all steel bodies were better. 

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I was going to buy one Robert. You didn't have to do that but thanks for your help. ?

 

As always, my fellow Dodge Brothers come through with the good stuff... 

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5 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Those used on the DBC CD. JJ=June/July; AS=August-September; SO=September-October; JA=July-August issue.

 

Sorry, that went completely over my head... I should have known what you meant (embarrassed face emoji..)

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The Club Store sells reprints of the series of articles on Senior Six and also of the series on truck numbering and specifications. As I recall, much of the necessity of purchasing the engines from Continental lied in foundry capacity at Dodge, producing the four-cylinder engine and also developing the Victory engine. Once the four was canceled they brought manufacturing of the Senior engine in-house. This, I believe, comes from the "Confidential Memos to Dealers." Also Dodge hired John Wilkenson, formerly of Franklin Motors, but then freelancing, to design the Victory engine and possibly the Senior as well. This comes from  "Automotive Topics" and also from Menno Duerksen of "Cars & Parts."

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