30DodgePanel

Senior Six Questions for Car and Truck guys

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Hey guys thanks for the help in advance...

 

 I'm doing some study on frame numbers and decided to take a second to ask some questions that have plagued me for quite some time about the Senior Six engine and how they may relate or expand in answering questions in regards to trucks. My apologies if this has been discussed but I couldn't find anything in the search history.

 

When viewing this truck chart I've attached you'll notice that I've highlighted the areas in question that use the 2249's and 2252's. Please use this chart in comparison to what you know in regards to the Senior Six lineup.

 

Questions:

 

1.) In all the highlighted areas, does anyone have any insight or knowledge, guesses.. anything that will shed light on why Senior Six engines were used in these models of trucks? 

NOTE: They are all 2 tons or more capacity rating

 

2.) In the top highlighted area notice the frame or "serial" numbers started with E1001, D1001 and S1001. These are the only trucks produced from July 1927 to May 1928 that had a five digit alpha numerical value to signify serial numbers, but why ? Any guesses..  or have you ever seen anything that can shed light on this ? 

 

3.) What is the wheelbase of the passenger senior six ? Or did they have several different wheelbases depending on model ? (IE coupe, sedan, roadster)

 

4.) Were Senior Sixes only produced in Detroit or other cities such as Evansville, Stockton or the Canadian location ? 

 

5.) Does anyone know if the 2249's or 2252's engine used in cars were completely different than those used in trucks or were their slight variations ? And if so, what were those variations ?

 

Please, if you anything at all please input. Sometimes even the smallest clues can open a door in research. 


Regards,
Dave

Senior Six Questions.jpg

Edited by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

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For Q.1, perhaps the Senior Six engine was the biggest and most powerful Dodge Brothers made then, just before Chrysler took control?

From Allpar.com

image.thumb.png.d76da74132bb2e414ed8c074c3106eaa.png

The 2249, 2251 and 2252 all appear to have the 224.3 ci engine, but the 2251 and 2252 were rated at 68 hp rather than 60 hp for the 2249.

 

3) 116". http://www.geocities.ws/dodgesantigos/DB1928e75e.html?1015480640510

 

See also http://report.oldcarsweekly.com/vehicle/1928-dodge-series-2251-senior-6-cyl-116-w

 

Here is a bit more history about it from https://www.allpar.com/corporate/bios/dodge-brothers.html

image.thumb.png.59ef6eae143e720b0744fc702022b706.png

 

Notice the sentence saying the engine was designed by Dodge Brothers and built by Continental Motors. Can anyone corroborate that?

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

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From the information that I have the 2249 engine was rated at 60 bhp  The 2251 was larger in the bore and was rated at 68 bhp After the Chrysler take over the same engine was tweaked to 78 bhp for the 2252 and the DB 

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10 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Notice the sentence saying the engine was designed by Dodge Brothers and built by Continental Motors. Can anyone corroborate that?

 

I found some interesting references in an old Automotive Industries magazine (dated Feb 1930) that make mention of a Continental 8R that was designed for "car" use in it's application. This is the closest match I could come up with in the Continental line up. The 8R is listed as:

6 x 3 3/8 x 4 1/2 - 27.34 hp  241.6 cu

 

In this same book it shows the Dodge Senior Six but mentions the maker of the engine as "own", suggesting Dodge Brothers were the ones who made the engine.

6 x 3 3/8 x 4 1/2 - 27.3 hp and 241.4 cu

 

Later I did find a truck manufacturer by the name of Guilder that had a truck with 160" wb that used  this same Continental 8R engine that was supposedly used for car applications as previously mentioned but here we find it in a truck application.

 

So it sounds like Continental had produced several different engines at the time for various applications for cars as well as trucks, buses and tractor applications that were being counted with the automobile figures.. I'm counting a total of 24 different Continental engines that were produced for the automobile industry but keep in mind this isn't counting the various industrial or airplane engines that would have also been produced, that would be a separate count. According to this information it is evident that Continental engines would have been used across different platforms and makers so it does seem possible that Continental may have "produced" a engine but with a "Dodge Brothers design". I would say more literature is needed for further proof, just to be completely sure.

 

I don't have any photos or factory literature showing the design of the Senior Six engines. Can someone provide pics of the different variations of the Senior Six engines (2249, 2251 and 2252) so we can compare them with any Continental literature that may be presented ?

 

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I saw something, probably in one of those references above, saying the 2252 was the same as a 2251 but with bigger tires!

 

The posted paragraphs from Allpar.com say the 2249 engine, 224.3 cu. in., was upgraded by Chrysler to 242 cu. in. for the 2251-2. It appears coincidental that Continental also produced an engine that size.

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

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That was in the old cars weekly link you posted:

When equipped with standard size tires, the Senior Six was designated Series 2251; with oversize tires, Series 2252." 

 

I guess that the larger tires may also explain why the truck model chart above only had the 2249 and the 2252 listed. Makes sense I guess.... still wish we had some factory or brochure photos of the Senior Six engines so I can compare them to truck info...

 

I just don't understand why a select few trucks in the D series had a completely different numbering system for the serial numbers for this short period of time. This was the last time they used the Graham Brothers name plates according to the Dodge Story page 64 so maybe that is relevant somehow ? ….. But then the question is, why did it not apply to all D series trucks, why did the shorter serial numbers only apply to the ED, OD, TD, JD and YD ? Could it be because this was the first time a 6 cylinder truck was produced and combined with phasing out the GB name they felt they had to label these completely different? All other trucks prior to the ED were 4 cylinder. Very interesting to say the least...

 

More questions than I'll ever get answers for I guess... As a research nut, it is very disappointing that we cannot get access to the WPC museum to help answer some of these questions that only they know.

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Get a copy of the Dodge Brothers club magazines cd  from the Ddge Brothers club and reserch it . It has the history and all the changes that the Senior  car had done to it in that peroid, your answers are there.

  • Thanks 1

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19 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

 

 

 

Notice the sentence saying the engine was designed by Dodge Brothers and built by Continental Motors. Can anyone corroborate that?

HMM, imagine that. In the Fisher Body thread I did make a mistake saying I thought they were Lycoming engines. I knew they were not a true DB engine but used the wrong company name. I should have said Continental

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JA86 p. 8 is an article about the 1st series Senior owned by a member. It says it has a Continental engine.

SO85 p. 5 reprints an article from Sept 28 1928 about the introduction of the 2nd series Senior. Spec's are given for the engine but not its source - one would assume that to be Dodge.

SO90 has a reprint of an article from 25 Oct 1927 from The Motor of a road test with the new Dodge Brothers Senior. No mention of the source of the engine.

AS95 p. 19 has an article about the advertising of the Senior 1927-28. No mention of the engine being other than Dodge Brothers.

JJ93 p. 26 an article about a restoration. No mention of source of engine.

 

Your turn!

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Spinney what are the abbreviations you're referring to ? ( JJ93, AS95, SO90, SO85, and JA86)

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Those used on the DBC CD. JJ=June/July; AS=August-September; SO=September-October; JA=July-August issue.

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Thank you Robert B. Not only did they purchase the engines from another source for the Senior line but they admitted using a composite body. This was nothing new to DB even though they condemned wood bodied cars in much of their advertisements. The first body DB built in house was the 1917-18 centerdoor sedan, a wood bodied car. The sheet metal was actually cut with tin snips, you can see the tool marks. Then the Four Passenger coupe in '24 and '25 was wood bodied also, body by Fisher. Kind of contradicting their own philosophy that all steel bodies were better. 

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I was going to buy one Robert. You didn't have to do that but thanks for your help. ?

 

As always, my fellow Dodge Brothers come through with the good stuff... 

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5 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Those used on the DBC CD. JJ=June/July; AS=August-September; SO=September-October; JA=July-August issue.

 

Sorry, that went completely over my head... I should have known what you meant (embarrassed face emoji..)

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The Club Store sells reprints of the series of articles on Senior Six and also of the series on truck numbering and specifications. As I recall, much of the necessity of purchasing the engines from Continental lied in foundry capacity at Dodge, producing the four-cylinder engine and also developing the Victory engine. Once the four was canceled they brought manufacturing of the Senior engine in-house. This, I believe, comes from the "Confidential Memos to Dealers." Also Dodge hired John Wilkenson, formerly of Franklin Motors, but then freelancing, to design the Victory engine and possibly the Senior as well. This comes from  "Automotive Topics" and also from Menno Duerksen of "Cars & Parts."

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So I received my reprints from the DBC yesterday (finally) and have been comparing and studying to other resource materials and all I can think is "MY GOODNESS,, what have I got myself into"? lol

 

Wow, there is a wealth of information on these Senior Six engines for cars and trucks but pulling it all together in a clean outlined summarization for the D1001, E1001, S1001 trucks is going to be time consuming. Many other researchers have done exceedingly more qualified research than I can ever hope to perform but my point here will be to bring these answers together in regards to this five digit alpha numeric truck series. The information on passenger cars and how it relates will be key however....

 

Before I begin to attempt to outline anything I do have a couple of questions:

 

1.) Were the truck and car engines being counted together in the production numbers ? 

 

The reason I ask:

Out of all the trucks produced in the D,E,S built trucks 7,163 engines were produced for truck applications according to the serial number range for trucks. 

 

According to the design and engineering changes (in the Senior reprint) by serial number and date for the 2249 in 1928 there are several mention of trucks in this chronological time frame. Keep in mind the truck model chart above validates all these truck/bus models to have a Senior 2249. 

6/23/1928 - Senior engine were used in 2 ton ED around serial #16000

7/18/1928 -  Wheel size changes to 19" with 31x6.00 tires around serial #19000

7/23/1928 - OD & TD trucks get senior engines around serial #19000

7/27/1928 - Dealers advised to inflate tires to 35psi for ease of steering on GB buses YD, YDX & JD all senior engines around serial #19800

 

2.) Out of the 14,720 Senior units produced - 7,163 of those for were for buses and trucks so should the numbers for the Senior passenger car then be closer to 7,557 in reality ? 

 

3.) Has anyone asked this question before and if so, am I duplicating work that someone else has already condensed into one place ? 

 

 

Edit: 
BTW, not that I'm avoiding the Continental Engine line of questioning but I'm not including that for now because I have my hands full with the trucks. If someone else wants to take on that task feel free.. I'm more focused on the Senior engine use between the car and trucks and how that may be applicable to production numbers more than who the engine may or may not of been farmed out to. Although I understand that is a valid point and should not be ignored.

Edited by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

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I had once a 1929 firetruck, partly GB and partly DB. No doubt built during Chrysler's decision to abandon the Graham reference due to the Graham brothers now building a competitive car. However, the Senior engine, now built by Dodge in-house, had a GB before the serial number. It was different from the car engine in that it had a dual updraft manifold to suit the dual updraft Zenith carburetor and a serious high-output North East generator. It also had no heat valve built into the manifold. The bore should be 3.395 for GB, 3.375 for Seniors, according to Confidential memos, but my truck engine had the 3.375 bore. So...???

Engine GB-16622 (note this is still a Graham Bros prefix)

Chassis Number D-204042 (Built in Detroit)

It is possible, but I have no confirmation of this,  that when these engines were built by Continental, the numbering was sequential and no differences between truck and car prefixes.. For this we need input from owners of early trucks with Senior engines.

 

1. Regarding the numbering of truck serial numbers in the '27-'28 period, remember that there was mass confusion at Dodge Brothers. Wilmer was a horrible executive (as witness his nearly destroying Goodyear prior to coming to Dodge) and seemed to change his mind on almost every decision he made, probably also regarding how to designate various truck models.

 

2. Production of Senior cars can be measured by car serial numbers which came sequentially with little or no gaps. Trucks were built in different locations and would not interfere with car production. Car production numbers are verified in paint charts (showing changes in colors produced) and Confidential Memos to dealers. Numerous car-industry publications also report these production numbers.

I do not know the differences in engine number vs car serial number for Seniors, but for the Victory the engines ran about 12,000 higher number than the chassis serial number. The difference increased as the model year progresses--something I attributed to engines being diverted for trucks, but I have no confirmation about that. I always presumed that engine numbering started with M-10001 for car number M-1 (more or less).

 

3. A major error in the publication pages duplicated above, the Victory wheelbase is 112, not 120.

 

 

Edited by JB-ed (see edit history)

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  • Come to think of it, the club donated to the AACA library an enormous set of Parts Books, supposedly from 1914-1930 or  so, which includes a three or four volume set of truck books. Many answers could be contained therein. These books contain part numbers and line drawings of engines, front and rear ends, transmissions, etc.

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Forgive me for my ignorance on this topic but at what plant were the Senior cars produced ? I cannot find the answers in my research on Seniors... I must simply be skipping over it somehow.. 

 

I want to mention that we discussed the differences between the 2251 and 2252 as possibly being larger tires. However, according to the article (in the Senior reprint) by Bruce K. Brown and John C. Bittence the 2251 was produced from 1/2/28 with 4435 units built. The 2252 was produced from 7/30/28-06/30/29 with 10,486 units built. In the side note description of the 2252 it mentions "Some modern books claim the 2252 was the large wheel version of the 2251. However, vintage factory serial number listings show this as the later series, as we list here".

 

So as Ron L. pointed out previously the 2251 and 2252 were indeed definitively different engines made in separate time frames. I would have liked for them (Bruce and John) to provide references for making such bold claims but it seems this is widely accepted and I assume as a researcher ( I never like to assume, I don't trust it ) that it's provided somewhere in the Senior car factory literature and shall accept it for the time being or until proven otherwise..

 

To your points JB:

I hope to visit the AACA museum in the near future and will keep that in mind.

So your conclusion is that the car engines were built at one location with the IS prefix and truck engines were built at Detroit, Evansville and Stockton plants with GB prefixes? 

I'm not sure where the serial numbers began for the truck senior engines either but I'm providing a couple of historic documents that may help answer some questions. Could it be possible that it started with GB 1000 ? Seems logical but we all know logic was not part of the equation in the early days....

 

Note the one bulletin was provided by Robert B. in Australia and the other paperwork for the Express was copied from an eBay auction showing the GB prefix along with a key 5 digit alpha numeric serial code. It does not mention wheelbase but it does say "Express". The Express was essentially a long bed pickup version. My guess is this is the OD model 137 WB but that is just a guess,,,, The reason I think that though is the ED model 114" wb seems to short for an Express and the TD 162" wb seems to long. Fairly safe to say the Express is a OD model but I wish we had more info on this paperwork to prove what wheelbase it was. Obviously built in the Detroit plant...

 

Also notice the Express was being traded in for a new beefier Chassis and Cab with the great Z engine. Wow, would have loved to have seen what extras were added and what this baby was used for. Something substantial to say the least...

 

GB prefix.jpg

GB prefix (2).jpg

GB UC 11.jpg

GB UC 13.jpg

Edited by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

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The irony of this series of trucks (ED, OD, TD, JD, YD) is that we have good evidence of the overall production totals in this subset of D series trucks because they did contain separate serial numbers. Hard to say that for any other series in the GB/DB lineup prior to 1932.

I guess we have something to thank Wilmer for ? lol

 

 

 

1927 to 32 (2).jpg

Edited by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

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11 hours ago, robert b said:

These appear to be the later 78 hp engine may be 2251 or 2252  ?

gb3.jpg

 

Yes I do have a copy of the book, those were the E series trucks with the later 2252 engine with the updraft Zenith carbie 116 1/2.. 

 

Does anyone have the earlier 2249 to post for comparison ? 

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30 DP Possibly the only visual difference between the early Senior engines and the later one like in your post is the 2249 engine never had the vent tube from the side plate to the air cleaner

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