Duesenberg question

[caf]

RM has a 29 Duesenberg listed for their auction. My question is did that car ever have outside exhausts? or did they install them during its recent restoration..

At one time it was reported to be used as a glider tow vehicle,

[Guest Silverghost]

I am not sure of the exact Duesenberg you you speak of here ~~~

But IF it was at one time the glider tow car( "J 444" ) it was originally built for Movie comic actor Joe E. Brown as an open Derham tourster.(coachwork made in Pennsylvania)

It later went through several owners before my great uncle William "Wild Bill" Hunter bought this Model "J".

William Hunter at one time in the 1930s owned four Model "J" Duesenbergs. Uncle Bill kept it for a brief period of time and just before WW II he sold it to his friend & flying buddy Howard Hughes who used it during most of the war.

Hughes later cut-off the rear section of the body to use it at a Calif. airport to tow gliders & test airframes ! Uncle William & Howard Hughes often flew gliders together !

No photo seems to exist of this Model "J" in glider tow form~ But I do believe this story to be true !

Hughes later sold the glider tow Duesey to the glider airport owners.

Both Howard and my great uncle William owned many great Full Classics in this time period !

They each had dozens of great autos ~

Finally a collector bought the bare "J 444" chassis & engine/drive-train only ; the original body coachwork by then scrapped & long-gone . A complete new reproduction Derham tourster style reproduction body was finally re-constructed for this Model "J 444" chassis .

Old Uncle William Hunter should have kept "J 444 " as well as his three other Model "J" Duesenbergs & several Dozen other Classics~~~

What a fantastic world-class collection We would then have today !

Re; Outside flexible Model "J" exhaust pipes~~~~

Many Duesenbergs had the flexible outside exhaust pipes retrofitted much later in their life. I suspect the owners just liked their look & the few extra horsepower gained because of the less restrictive exhaust .

These extra outside pipe additions are still going on to this day !

The factory supercharged cars first had the outside flexible chrome exhaust pipes when new only I believe !

I did a web search for the upcomming RM auction listing but could not find it today?

I am sure Chris Summers the Duesenberg historian can update this thread with more exact information on this former glider tow car & the outside chrome flexible exhaust pipes ! .

Edited December 19, 2010 by Silverghost (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

If the car in question is J-444 then it is the former Howard Hughes Duesenberg. The restoration was done here in Connecticut by the McGowen brothers about 20 years ago. It was one of the finest looking J's I'd ever seen, black on black with BLACKWALL tires, stunning! Otis Chandler put the wide whites on it, I don't know about the side pipes.

[alsancle]

If the car in question is J-444 then it is the former Howard Hughes Duesenberg. The restoration was done here in Connecticut by the McGowen brothers about 20 years ago. It was one of the finest looking J's I'd ever seen, black on black with BLACKWALL tires, stunning! Otis Chandler put the wide whites on it, I don't know about the side pipes.

Very few cars look good with wide whites. Some came from the factory with them so you have no choice, such as the Cord 810/812 & 53 Caribbean

[Rusty_OToole]

I thought the outside exhaust pipes were only used on supercharged models originally? Was the supercharged engine even available in 1929?

[caf]

RM says it is J116, doesn't sound like the glider tow vehicle.. Thanks for your replies..

[Guest Silverghost]

You have to watch what you are really buying when looking at the purchase of any Model "J" Duesenberg.

There have been so many body swaps and new reproduction coachwork built that many existing today are not at all original.

Engines have blown-up, thrown rods and have been swapped also.

Half ,or more, that have superchargers today never came from the factory with them. Reproduction superchargers were added years later ~~~

The outside flex chrome exhaust pipes have been also added to far too many cars over the years ~~~

As many have said before ~~~

Most all Duesenberg's engines & chassis were built in 1929/30~~

Coachwork was added later to customer order ~~~

It just took many years to finally sell them all during the depression era ; thus the later factory sale dates !

The supercharged cars were very special & limited in production~~~

Only 36 were originally built !

There are probably twice that number today; counting all reproduction superchargers that were added much later !

In short~~~ Reasearch any potential Duesenberg purchase wirh Chris Summers the Duesenberg Club historian or Highly noted expert & restorer Randy Ema if you want one that is 100 % factory correct & with documented history as originally built !

100% original & documented as factory built cars are always more valuable !.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Silverghost (see edit history)

[alsancle]

The SJ was introduced in 1932. Many of the Model J have had pipes added over the years without the blower. Some were done by the factory in the 1930s but most later. As far as I can tell, there is no loss of value for pipes on a non-supercharged car. The same is true of a reproduction blower, although it probably might bump the price just a bit. As far as valuing them, there is a complex formula based on the car's history, early/late, integrity (engine/chassis/body) and most importantly body style. Putting this as gently as I can, if you buy a Model J, without really knowing what you are doing... you are foolish ...

[Restorer32]

There is at least one with an Auburn repro Speedster body. You can tell by the steering wheel, there isn't enough room between the cowl where it meets the door and the wheel for your hand. Like '32-'34 Packard Convertibles, it's buyer beware.

[memaerobilia]

There is at least one with an Auburn repro Speedster body. You can tell by the steering wheel, there isn't enough room between the cowl where it meets the door and the wheel for your hand. Like '32-'34 Packard Convertibles, it's buyer beware.

It is Probabaly a different car, but I'm wondering if it just Might be the same one?

In the 1950s, my father took the Duesenberg engine out of what he called a "Duesenberg Touring car." He built race cars and custom sports cars for a living (Raceway Garage , in The Bronx, NYC)and had numerous famous customers and award winning show cars in major Auto shows, at the time. He "Stretched" an Auburn Speedster frame to add a foot in front of the firewall for the Duesenberg engine, then either added on or built new? hood and side panels with the Speedster trim. He said it was a "bear" to steer, and he sold it to a short man who had trouble seeing past the hood! He told me more details when he was shocked to see an Ad in Hemmings, in the 80s for a Duesenberg clock for $450 and remarked that he sold the engineles open Duesenberg CAR for LESS than that. It had sat outside of his Bronx shop for about a month , with all the neighborhood children playing in it, every day! I have a bunch of Dad's original photos of the Speedster before and after the engine change. Even some in color. Since I have the original negatives, i am able to blow up some negatives for close-up details. I think there might be a photo or two of it on my website (lots of photos of Dad's old race & sports & custom cars & race boats etc)at www.memaerobilia.com

Notice how close the side trim is to the firewall/cowl on the white car. Then notice how much extra space there is on the dark car. Dad split the differeence on the extra foot. so there was an extra six inches of space at each end of the side trim.

Edited December 20, 2010 by memaerobilia
addd 2 photos (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

The stretched car actually looks pretty good - kind of like the exxagerated lines some of the transportation related art (including car ads) and toys of the Art Decco era had.

Stuff like this makes this forum GREAT. Straying a bit from original thread, hope he doesn't mind...

[alsancle]

I can only imagine how that car felt going into a tight corner:)

[Guest ChrisSummers]

Derham Phaeton J-116 / 2136 was fitted with side exhaust in the factory era and has retained it in the restorations since.

Joe, my files indicate that the engine used in the Auburn was J-434, which is currently in another Duesenberg with a Packard roadster body and chassis 2410. The engine was originally in a Derham Convertible Sedan which explains the "touring car" reference. Dave Miller of OH bought the Auburn from Raceway Motors in 1956 and installed another J engine, J-209. The car in this form was bought by Harland Fry of Texas in August 1961; I don't know its history beyond that point.

Edited December 21, 2010 by ChrisSummers (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

Thanks Chris! I just love it when info like this pops up in a conversation, nice to know that car is still out there somewere. Joe Sr. was a very gifted craftsman and sure turned out some great vehicles, sure glad Joe Jr. followed in his footsteps.

[memaerobilia]

Hi Chris Thank you so much for that most interesting follow-up on that car. No big deal-but purely for the sake of accuracy... it was never Raceway Motors, just Raceway Garage in those days, and later, Raceway Engineering when we switched to a lot of vintage aircraft dealing. These days I concentrate on rare aircraft, engines & parts for musems and advanced collectors, but still dabble in old racing cars. (We had 38, mostly pre-war racers, from 1973-1990. I kept a few..) Good reason to use title of Raceway Garage, as that is the name my father used with cars (& some racing boats, too) of famous customers, race drivers, celebrities, tycoons and some of the high end Manhattan NYC custom sports & race cars for numerous World Motor Sports Show entries that he built & modified. Will be easier for folks to track history of certain cars that way..I just helped the current owners of the pre WWII Adler Rennlimousine Dad rebuilt for himself back then. He also did custom work for Hoffmann Motors and Chinetti, including work on the Ferrari 375MM after the Carrera Panamericana IV. Chinetti sent it to the Bronx so my Dad (Joe Gertler Sr.)could fix all the heavy damage it had after the race from hitting the rabbits and birds on the course..Did you also notice the tasteful headlight treatment of blending new and better units into the fenders on the Auburn with Duesy engine?

[Dave Mellor NJ]

I've been meaning to ask Chris Summers,or anybody else for that matter, if he has any information on an original Duesenberg dealer named Williams from Providence, RI. I don't know his first name or if he dealt in other Cord products, but I believe he had the franchise for all of New England. His dealership might have been called New England Motors or something to that effect. Mr. Williams was a cousin of my mother. He was Jewish but had changed his name for business reasons or whatever, My mother,who was also Jewish but hadn't changed her name,was from Pawtucket, a Providence suburb, and spent most of her summers on Block Island working in the hotel kitchens along with her cousin,Mr. Williams' daughter. This girl always pleaded with mom to please not let anybody know she was a Jew. Mom never told on her but she always resented it.

[Guest ChrisSummers]

Joe, information corrected, thanks - this is why I share information, so it can be discussed (and occasionally fixed!).

The headlights fared into the fenders look like a treatment done in CA to a 1935 speedster in the early 1950s. That car appeared on the "Boston Blackie" TV show briefly. It now belongs to a friend of mine in MI, cosmetically restored and changed back to its original appearance. I double-checked his history of the car, written for an ACD newsletter, and it isn't the same car as the Duesy-engined one. I know of one other speedster that had a similar treatment for a total of three. Last I heard that car was still around in Missouri and still had the faired-in headlights, although its owner - of almost 70 years - recently passed away.

[Dave Mellor NJ]

In this month's Hemmings there is a 1929 Duesenberg J LeBaron Sport Phaeton with the hood side exhaust at Pebble Beach.The owner,John Groendyke of Enid, Ok won a second place out of a large field of Duesies.