Sub Frame Bushings

[Guest Kingglory]

I have an okay set up but I got "people" with better shops, LOL. I had some help on this because I was at my boiling point after I broke off 2 bolts. I used 2 cans of PB blaster for just over a week. The problem is you can not get the spray inside the frame where the nuts are hidden. We used an impact and then had to break out the torch.

We had to cut access holes and then weld the frame back together. All worked out in the end but the job completely sucked!

I have made a ton of progress so far and a few other minors left. Then its off to carpet,seats and paint..

I should be complete in a couple months, fingers crossed.

[rguard]

After reading this forum posting, I was worried about the availability of parts.

However I was pleasantly surprised when my local dealer, Ed Martin Buick on MI Rd in Indianapolis (317-872-9896) was able to order all the parts, and they actually came in from Lansing within 3 days!

These are the parts that were ordered and came in for my 1990 Reatta, front cradle:

#1627359 Insulator (cushion/bushing)

#1626368 Spacer

#10409029 Bolt

#11516075 Package of 10 metric nuts for the insulator stud bolts

Interestingly, when I asked the service department at the dealer for an installation estimate, they said I should take it to a local body shop. When I can save up enough, I will do that.

1990 Driftwood/tan coupe

BCA #45409 / RDIV #1074

[Guest xerxes]

Does anyone have an exploded diagram showing where these are?

[NCReatta]

Does anyone have an exploded diagram showing where these are?

Refer to 10-3-4 in the 1990 Field Service Manual, Terry. There will be a picture at the top of the page showing you the general location. If you don't have one, you can sign up for a free digital copy here: Reatta Data Page

But basically, there are four in the rear (two per side), and two in the front (one per side).

[Fox W.]

Hello all. My 89 is currently getting a full body overhaul/paint job and is in the shop now still. So far most all sub-frame rust has been removed (it wasn't so bad fortunately) and the only sheet metal rust was fixed (new metal welded in) (just a spot on each side behind the bottom of the fenders on the rocker panel, the crap-trap that is.)

The thing is I am considering having them remove the entire rear cross suspension support to be blasted and powder coated, since most all of the rust was there. I guess all the oil kept the front suspension in much better shape. Anyway I've been trying to locate all of these bushings/insulators used for the rear, and I noticed some parts that seem relevant that were not listed in this thread. (Unless they have all been superseded by a single generic part?) The parts I mean are listed here: 1989 Buick Reatta Suspension/Rear - GM07036402LH0M134EC97

Mainly: 3538757 ; 25678602 and possibly 1627757. It is a little confusing and hard to figure when just looking over these part pages where exactly each of these went, and which could be duplicates or not of other listed parts. The numbers in the illustrations of the shop manual are pretty much all obsolete it seems as I cannot find them around.

Before I can consider if I am willing to pay the shop for the effort of taking this out, given all the difficulty it seems they will likely encounter, I would like to know what I even should buy since it makes sense to me to get the rubber replaced while there. It would also be great if there were a list of all bushings and related parts needed for the control arms and any others worth doing while in there. I've done my best by using RockAuto Auto Parts which has lead me to a shopping cart of bushings by brands such as 'Moog' that I can only hope are correct.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

[Fox W.]

Here is a list I have so far of part numbers I see mentioned in threads, not including what is in the shop manual for the rear suspension:

Insulator/spacer/Mounts/bushings:

1626368 (Spacer)

1627359 (Insulator)

25678602 (Beam Insulator? Lower-small)

3538757 (Beam Insulator? Upper-large)

1627757

1628807

1627755

14087853

Spring mounts:

17982002 (lower)

17981840 (upper)

Edited May 14, 2012 by Fox W. (see edit history)

[zoltanb]

You can find all the parts you listed at Chevy Parts - GM Parts - Genuine OEM GM Parts Dealer They have diagrams of where everything goes.

[Rawja]

I'd cross-shop pricing, In my experience GM Parts Direct: Your direct source for Genuine GM Parts has lower prices.

Just make sure you factor in the shipping and handling costs.

[Fox W.]

You can find all the parts you listed at Chevy Parts - GM Parts - Genuine OEM GM Parts Dealer They have diagrams of where everything goes.

Hi, these are the sites I have been using, though some part #s are not being found, or are not available. How do you see diagrams for them on these sites? Some things, such as those coil spring insulator mounts are no longer available, trying to find alternatives. Other rubber parts for the rear also show as unavailable.

[zoltanb]

On the site I suggested, from the home page click Buick>Reatta>pick year> engine and trans>pick group 9>line 8 body mounting>click get info> click parts illustration and from there you can enlarge the picture. They have every thing in stock all original parts.

[Fox W.]

On the site I suggested, from the home page click Buick>Reatta>pick year> engine and trans>pick group 9>line 8 body mounting>click get info> click parts illustration and from there you can enlarge the picture. They have every thing in stock all original parts.

Thanks for bearing with me on this. I saw now how to get to their illustrations, which helps. Though these are the rounded insulators that I see in the front. (Which may also be used in the rear but the ones I am referring to look more rectangular.)

You can see them in these pictures, in the upper-back sorta. (not the muffler hanger.)

http://forums.aaca.org/attachments/f116/113239d1325805762-rust-free-sam_0629.jpg

http://padgett.performanceresearch.us/cars/white/muffler.jpg

Also what about the coil sprint mounts, upper and lower? Those part numbers clearly show as unavailable for the GM part, but do we know of any after-market equivalents?

Thanks again.

[NCReatta]

These things?

[Fox W.]

These things?

Yes sir!

[Fox W.]

I think a lot of what I am focused on is shown here: Part Detail

And I think I've isolated (thanks to knowing about the illustration now) that the two I am wondering about were these:

25678602 (Beam Insulator? Lower-small)

03538757 (Beam Insulator? Upper-large)

I've only seen these referenced in one thread on this forum, I am wondering why these don't seem to get addressed when people do this overhaul? Are they not important?

Also my original issue, while mitigated a bit is still there, that many rubber parts including basic bushings such as #23 "**29205" are not available anymore. So the real point to why I am trying to be so exact in understanding is I would love to do better than just learn for myself through this experience, I would like to document everything and create an exact list of sources for all these parts that are no longer available, with the relevant third-party part numbers, maybe it could be put on Reattaowner or such, so that it is easier for others who want to replace not only the primary 6 insulator mounts, but also all bushings for the rear control arms and upper/lower insulator pads.

Some examples of bushings I've found that may be directly replacements for no longer available genuine GM parts were found here: http://www.rockauto.com Hierarchy --> 1989 BUICK REATTA 3.8L 231cid V6 : Suspension : Control Arm Bushing

They don't list a replacement for the spring mounts, just shock mounts, not sure when one is the really the same as another in regards to parts listed in this section: 1989 BUICK REATTA 3.8L 231cid V6 : Suspension : Strut Mount

Edited May 14, 2012 by Fox W. (see edit history)

[zoltanb]

Do you mean the coil springs on the front struts or the rubber on the the rear shocks? The upper rectangular rubber is available. How bad are yours?

[Fox W.]

I messed up, sorry. Not coil, I now see due to the illustration that it is for the rear leaf spring. Part numbers:

17982002 (lower)

17981840 (upper)

I don't have my car available for me to go look at, but I am just trying to gather one of everything because I know most all of my rubber is in rough shape, and when you are paying over 7k to restore a car you start feeling like you may as well address all those little things while in there. So I am trying to find out exactly which parts I absolutely can not get new still, and how important they are or not.

Thanks, I at least do feel like I am getting much closer. Mainly it is a matter of me researching these last bits and finding out the right quantities and such.

[zoltanb]

You only need 2 of #1. The spacer under the spring is the same as a 92-97 olds cutlass. The after market replacement is 5 times better than the original

[Fox W.]

You only need 2 of #1. The spacer under the spring is the same as a 92-97 olds cutlass. The after market replacement is 5 times better than the original

Thanks, when you say #1, do you mean 3538757 listed as #1 on gmpartsgiant, or did you mean something else?

Please point me to to the after-market example that improves upon the one you are referring, if it isn't too much trouble.

[zoltanb]

Yes #1 is 38757 and 27751. Look at rockauto.com for 1994 cutlass supreme 3.4, suspension, transverse spring isolator pad 14.31 ea plus shipping. Works with slight modification.

[Fox W.]

Thank you. I take it there was no aftermarket improvement for 1627359 and other such?

[zoltanb]

Take moog parts for example sometimes the same part is made in 4 or 5 countries and needless to say the quality is not the same, it's a hit and a miss. Alway try for original even if it costs more.

[Fox W.]

I noticed the bolts, part# 10409029 are not longer available, but I managed to find 4 on Ebay that I bought. I guess when I make my docs I'll have to say these are no longer on gmpartsdirect and the like.. Unless someone here knows another source.

[Fox W.]

Yes #1 is 38757 and 27751. Look at rockauto.com for 1994 cutlass supreme 3.4, suspension, transverse spring isolator pad 14.31 ea plus shipping. Works with slight modification.

Nearest I found was "DORMAN Part # 31066 {#10432057, 10432060} Leaf Spring Insulator Kit" for $21.99

It also lists a "RAYBESTOS Part # 5763600 Spring Friction Pad; Professional Grade; Contents: (2) Friction Pads" for $17.91

There are also a couple other products under "Leaf Spring Bushing" (Rather than Leaf Spring Isolator.) Not sure if those are also useful or not.

[Fox W.]

GM Part 1626368 on gmpartsdirect claims to be in stock, but after placing my order they canceled that part and the order status says "1626368 SPACER Cancelled NO LONGER AVAILABLE" .

Do they and gmpartsgiant source parts from the same place, or are they totally independent? Let me know if anyone has these for sale, I need 4. Thanks!

[Guest DZLFRK]

Hey dumb question. Is repair what I might need for the horrible shake we feel when you hit even the smallest of bumps in the road? Thanks!

[Guest BobbyBubba]

UN-asked question: What if "someone else" (Dealer, Garage, etc) breaks hidden-welded cage nuts ?? Whose fault is it then ? Who pays the extra parts/labor ? I've never heard of a PROFESSIONAL place (Dealer/Garage) breaking something on a vehicle- what happens when they do ?

[Guest BobbyBubba]

Wouldn't it be nice- as with the "Headlight Crank Arm Restoration Kit"- that an owner(s) would get together- and either compile a KNOWN list of vendors with complete part #'s- OR- have parts like these (and other "discontinued" stuff) "MADE"- to help keep our Reatta's runnin smooth-n-safe? BTW- couldn't you just drill a SMALL hole, near a hidden caged nut- just enough for the straw of a can (PB Blaster) to fit? Plug with RTV?

[Ronnie]

Wouldn't it be nice- as with the "Headlight Crank Arm Restoration Kit"- that an owner(s) would get together- and either compile a KNOWN list of vendors with complete part #'s- OR- have parts like these (and other "discontinued" stuff) "MADE"- to help keep our Reatta's runnin smooth-n-safe? BTW- couldn't you just drill a SMALL hole, near a hidden caged nut- just enough for the straw of a can (PB Blaster) to fit? Plug with RTV?

Part Numbers*-*ReattaOwner.com

[Guest DZLFRK]

Hey Ronnie, a dumb question. Is this, "sub-frame bushing" repair what I might need for the horrible shake we feel when you hit even the smallest of bumps in the road? Thanks!

[Ronnie]

Hey Ronnie, a dumb question. Is this, "sub-frame bushing" repair what I might need for the horrible shake we feel when you hit even the smallest of bumps in the road? Thanks!

A visual inspection of your sub frame bushings should be done. Good original bushings should look similar to mine in photo below.

It is more likely your problem is worn ball joints, tie rod ends or struts. Take it into a reputable alignment shop you know you can trust for a front end alignment inspection. They will tell you what you need.

[Guest BobbyBubba]

This thread- reminds me of back in '91 (?) I cleaned a local GM dealership. Id get to check out what the Techs were up to. Strangest thing I ever saw- a Pontiac Transport- they just took out LONG bolts, unhooked few hoses & looms- then lifted van off of the "Powertrain Module". Front wheels, engine/tranny- all in what he called "the Cradle". Can our Reattas do that too?

[Ronnie]

Yes, but it is not as simple as you describe.

[Guest BobbyBubba]

THANKS Ronnie- shoudda known- youd have lotta stuff on your site. DUH. Im kinda slow sometimes, sorry. I was actually speaking of things like the "Headlight Crank Arm Kits"- BETTER-than-factory replicas of stuff we cant buy anymore. I stupidly went to Amazon- to get a new trunk lock. They shipped a lock kit for a trunk LID- not the Reatta- like website said "would fit". Now I'm stuck with it. Can't afford the return S&H.

[Fox W.]

Here are the things I was unable to obtain and the body shop needs. Let me know if any of you have ideas:

Bolts:

4 x # 38 (Shown in ‘Bolt 38 - suspension frame.jpg’ attached image. Also shown in ‘Leafspring insulators.jpg’)

2 x # 24 (Shown in ‘Control-Arm-number 24.jpg’ attached image.)

Leaf Spring Insulators: (Shown in the ‘Leafspring insulators.jpg’ attached image.)

2 x # 45 (upper leafspring insulator GM Part 17981840 )

2 x # 33 (lower leafspring insulator GM Part 17982002)

2 x # 31 (metal bracket. 33 and 31 are together really. (GM Part 3522016)

Edited July 24, 2012 by Fox W. (see edit history)

[Guest Craig57]

Here are the things I was unable to obtain and the body shop needs. Let me know if any of you have ideas:

Bolts:

4 x # 38 (Shown in ‘Bolt 38 - suspension frame.jpg’ attached image. Also shown in ‘Leafspring insulators.jpg’)

2 x # 24 (Shown in ‘Control-Arm-number 24.jpg’ attached image.)

Leaf Spring Insulators: (Shown in the ‘Leafspring insulators.jpg’ attached image.)

2 x # 45 (upper leafspring insulator GM Part 17981840 )

2 x # 33 (lower leafspring insulator GM Part 17982002)

2 x # 31 (metal bracket. 33 and 31 are together really. (GM Part 3522016)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]146434[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]146435[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]146436[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]146437[/ATTACH]

!

[KDirk]

Well,

I would think the #38 bolt could probably be sourced from a full line hardware supplier (i.e. NOT Home Depot). Take the known length/diameter and get new grade 9 bolts and nuts (and washers if needed) to put in.

#24 bolt ("the long mother") is more problematic. I am thinking you might have to resort to all-thread rod (might be best to use galvanized to suppress rust) and tack weld a nut and fender washer on one end to serve as the "head" of the bolt. I don't much like that suggestion, but necessity is the mother of invention as is commonly said.

On the rubber parts, I am fresh out of ideas. Since the rubber appears to be vulcanized onto the steel bracket, it is not a "roll your own" proposition. Will do some looking around, but if your body shop is coming up empty, my odds of finding anything are pretty slim. After all, they have connections to source this kind of stuff, more so than I do I'm sure.

KDirk

[Fox W.]

Kevin, your precision and well thought posts are always a pleasure. You and the body shop agree entirely about the bolts. They said they can get A grade bolts for the shorter one but they are assuming I want everything to be original. That is only true when possible. They also agree that the long bolt is the problem. I believe Roger of Tucson, AZ can help me with good unbroken/rust free bolts for at least the long ones.

So the main issue is the rubber.. What ever are we all to do in time? Perhaps for now it may be worth considering cutting my own block of rubber and doing a vulcanize-at-home process? *Starts learning.*

If anyone has any NOS though...

[wws944]

...So the main issue is the rubber.. What ever are we all to do in time? Perhaps for now it may be worth considering cutting my own block of rubber and doing a vulcanize-at-home process? *Starts learning.*...

There is always the Tech Shop (TechShop is America's 1st Nationwide Open-Access Public Workshop -- TechShop San Jose) over in San Jose...

[KDirk]

Fox,

Thank you for your kind words. You have squarely nailed my chief concern with "Whatever are we all to do in time?". Many of these parts are just not available now. Worse is that some cannot be fabricated by any easy means available to a do-it-yourselfer, even a highly skilled and motivated one. The rubber parts could likely be cut/molded or maybe milled from a block of urethane (stiffer, but more durable - see the other ongoing thread on cradle bushings) but attaching these to the steel so that they are captive and cannot slide/move around is the big problem. There is no adhesive of which I am aware that will bond rubber to steel with the strength needed for a suspension related part.

Typically, these rubber parts are molded onto the steel (having studs that penetrate into the rubber portion), so that the forming of the rubber and bonding to the steel bracket are done as one step. Since the brackets you have pictured are not in the greatest condition (rusty) reusing the steel parts is not ideal even if new rubber could be fashioned and attached somehow. Accurately reproducing the steel parts would require a custom stamping rig, and that is clearly beyond the scope of what us mere mortals can do in their garage on the weekend.

And, once again, the aftermarket has failed to fill the need for these parts because there just aren't enough buyers willing to commit to purchase all these parts for 20-25 year old cars that are of particular interest only to a very narrow swath of dedicated owners. Even if the collectibility of the Reatta picks up steam, I still don't see it's fans being a big enough group to matter to the outfits that can fill our needs. Those of us intent on preservation have a long difficult road ahead, as I really don't expect much aftermarket support for critical components like these suspension items that can no longer be sourced from GM. If there was a market, GM would still be offering them as they (or their contract suppliers) already had the tooling to make these things. That they don't pretty well tells the story. It is discouraging, no doubt.

KDirk

[Fox W.]

True indeed. The furthest I have gotten in thought is making the mold out of clay, an idea a friend gave me who regularly makes prosthetics. Buying from: McMaster-Carr Product: 8644K11 Which is a black urethane casting compound, Durascale 80A. I have seen cold vulcanizing products as well as urethane-based adhesives, but I do not know if either of these could be sufficient. My metal parts are rusty and I'd prefer nicer ones but in person I've found the rust looks worse than it is, the shop seems to think they would clean up nice. Cannot say until they wire brush it away.

http://www.lord.com/ May be a good place to inquire about how to bond them. Rubber or thermoplastic to metal bonding is their specialty. Companies like these don't usually do anything low volume though.. A reseller of theirs may though.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Fox W. (see edit history)