"Toybox" trailer project (2)

[Barry Wolk]

I was asked to start a new thread as opening the first one was becoming cumbersome even with DSL due to all the pictures.

I have been encouraged in PM and in this thread to continue posting my progress reports as they are apparently generating some interest.

I want to encourage an open dialogue so that I can receive constructive criticism and answer anyone's questions. A lot of details are starting to come together in anticipation of a test flight , um, test tow, sometime in the spring.

Brakes are done, lighting's done, electrical's done, polishing is ongoing and lounge interior is imminent.

Next step is ramps and insulation. The lift mechanism jury is still out.

Update 2-13-2006

Energized marker and clearance lights and nothing happened. Found a bad ground connection and it then lit up like a Christmas tree. One step closer to a test tow.

[Barry Wolk]

One of Tommy's questions:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sway in the breeze, all trailer do it, reguardless of weight. the rig passing you at 75mph grabs the back and pulls the front.</div></div>

Aside from requisite sway bars the trailer will have another stability enhancement. It will have no "boxcar" effect. I built custom brackets that allowed me to mount the suspension as far outboard as possible. The original trailer's axle width was 72". The new suspension is 102" wide, the legal limit.

You'll notice that there is only 5" of side clearance. You'll also notice the curbs that run the length of the interior of the trailer keeping the car from contacting the wall.

This rig might just move a few trailers on its own.

[R Walling]

The pictures are fine but I really like the sketches. You must be a draftsman!

I do have a question about a trailer swaying though. A friend went out and bought the best Radial tires he could find for his 35'enclosed 12,000lb trailer.

I think that it is the tires that gives him his sidesway. How do you, and other readers feel about radials on a trailer? When it is standing still you can push it side ways and get it moving about 2" back and forth.

[Barry Wolk]

Hi Roger,

I think that what you are referring to is radial tire squirm. True trailer tires have very little of this as they should be a minimum of 6-ply and sometimes 12-ply sidewalls.

I'd be willing to bet that your friend's trailer is fitted with car tires, not trailer tires.

My tires are inflated to 110 lbs of pressure. I assure you that, at that pressure, there is no side movement.

Yes, I was a draftsman in HS. The drawings are done on a Mac making my work appear much more sophisticated than it is.

[Barry Wolk]

I believe I have finalized the design for the lift mechanism. I've gone through pneumatic, hydraulic, linear actuator, screw jack and other various methods and I kept coming back to the same problem. The forces required to lift 200 lbs off the ground with such a short lever is enormous.

Someone had recommended a pully and cable system activated by a winch. The problem is that there needed to be a rigid connection between what was producing the force and the lever itself.

Someone else suggested a cable system similar to a garage door opener with drums on either side of a solid shaft. At first this idea struck me as just another obstacle to trip over while loading the car. The more I thought about it the better I liked the idea.

I have purchased a two spring garage door type pully, spring and cable system designed to lift a 200 lb trailer door. The counterbalance nature of the springs will allow me to move the ramp assembly with little or no effort as the springs actually do the work.

With no effort required in either direction an air cylinder will provide the motion required to stow and extend the lift.

[DizzyDale]

Dear Barry,Does the last drawing you posted represent the way you are going to carry your car in the box?I understand your trailer is totally adjustable in regard to moving the load till you get what you want on the tongue,but why load it backwards?All thats doing is picking up the tongue.IMHO your CURBS are not necessary,the car once tied down properly will not move more than 1/2" EVER.I believe they will only rape your whitewalls when loading and unloading if the car isn't perfectly centered.I am a student of the K.I.S.S. method diz

[Barry Wolk]

You are correct Dizz. The car will probably go in face first, but that's not etched in stone. Everything depends on how it balances out.

The car will not be driven into the trailer so the curbs are necessary to keep the car centered. As you can see from the drawing I have less than 5" of side clearance on either side as the Mark II doors are over 10" thick. The car will be winched in and out of the trailer, hence the curbs. I had considered installing rollers like a car wash track. I may still.

[Mark Shaw]

Barry,

Very interesting postings & photos. I too will be building an enclosed trailer, but that is another story....

Why are you planning to mount your torsion springs above the hinge? Why not mount it just below the floor of the trailer and eliminate the cables? Or, have you considered a quarter turn pneumatic rack and pinion actuator to open and close the hatch? You can get one the size of a loaf of bread that can produce 2500 inch lbs of torque. They can also be set up for spring return.

Mark Shaw

Vancouver, Wa

[Barry Wolk]

Hi Mark,

I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you talking about lifting the ramps or closing the hatches?

I'm trying to avoid hydraulics. I deal with messy hydraulics all the time as I own bucket trucks for my lighting maintenance business. Imagine popping a hose at a Concours event.

I tried to avoid cables but I have limited space (8") inside the chassis. That only leaves room for a 7" lever attached to the ramp. Some estimates have been as high as 6,000 pounds of force to lift the 200 lb ramp assembly off the ground.

I am not familiar with the product you describe. Do you have a link. I haven't actually cut anything yet so I'm still open to solutions.

[Barry Wolk]

This is the unloading configuration. The front is raised 36" dropping the rear to 18". Theree's an identical set of lifts on the rear used for stabilizing during unloading.

The trailer is tipped up 5° which is sufficient to let the weight of the car pay it out against the 10,000 lb winch. When the front tire is on the top of the ramp the front end of the trailer will be lowered raising the rear end as much as 48" if needed. This will dramatically increase the gravitational pull, allowing the vehicle to fully discharge from the trailer without a driver.

Test fitting the ramps to determine where to cut and install the heavy duty hinge.

Door hinges.

The original hinges were steel. Painted, they would never hold up to a buffer. Eventually they would rust. I sought out someone to make me a replacement hinge but an order of two was insufficient to peak anyone's interest.

The hinge is unusual in that one wing is 2" while the other is 2 1/2". Just a tad nonstandard. I found a company that makes aluminum hinges but they only stocked up to 4" aluminum piano hinges. I had a piece of .040 aluminum welded to one wing and it then duplicated the original. I also wanted to eliminate the secondary hinges for the screen door so piano hinges were ideal.

One new hinge installed.

This picture shows a final shine on the door vs. what I thought was shiny on the left. Look at the clarity of detail in the door reflection. Look at the mess on that table.

[Guest South_paw]

Hey Barry, why not install a "entry door" on the drivers side of the trailer? You could eliminate all this fuss about loading and unloading the car unmanned. If you stick with the unmanned route you will need a remote winch set up and your still going to need to adjust the tracking of the car up into the trailer. The way I see it, your looking at a two man job to load the car(one to steer/track the car & the other to work the winch). If you drive it up , thats a one man job.

Lou

[Barry Wolk]

The winch is already set up as a remote. It has a jack in the control box by the rear door. Two man loading isn't a problem as I'm sure I'll have no shortage of volunteers. My wife is always willing to lend a hand.

The object of dragging it in and out is so that I don't have drag my big body out that tiny window. The car is too wide to open the doors. I have a bad back as it is. I don't need any contorsionist activities, thank you. Actually I have been looking for a door off of a salvage trailer like mine, but have had no luck.

I don't believe it will be that tough to guide in. I'll still be able to steer it until it's halfway into the trailer and the curbs will guide it in. Also, once the front wheel are off the ramps and on the trailer I can slightly raise the front lifts and jog the whole trailer to align the ramps with the rear wheels.

[Guest South_paw]

OK scrap the entry door. How about a bump out? Like the ones you see on travel trailers? You could have it extend out 12", so getting in and out would be a breeze. You won't need any new "sheet metal" and when closed it would look original

[Barry Wolk]

You'd have to bump me in 12" to make that formula work.

[Mark Shaw]

Barry,

I am suggesting pneumatic double rack & pinion actuators as an alternative to a linear actuators. You already have air for your suspension system to run pneumatics. The unit I am suggesting delivers the most torque for it's size and price. Copy and paste the address below into your browser and check it out.

http://fcd.flowserve.com/valves/products/valve.jsp?pageid=AXE0001

Mark Shaw

Vancouver, WA

[Barry Wolk]

Wouldn't I have the same problem as using a double acting air cylinder? When the load goes overcenter won't it have a tendancy to compress the air in the drive section and drop like a rock? That's not a problem with hydraulic because the fluid is not compressible where air certainly is. The advantage of a linear actuator is that the load stays wherever you stop it. I don't see anything in their drawings that would lead me to believe that a certain position could be maintained under increased load. Maybe that could be done with controls but that's beyond my capabilities.

Almost all car trailers I have seen use a cable system to lower the ramp/door as they are typically quite heavy. Using any type of ram from the bottom will exert some enormous forces on such a short lever. Using counterbalance springs will make movement through the range quite effortless allowing me to use a simple dual action air cylinder to provide motion through a simple air toggle switch.

[Mark Shaw]

Barry,

I am not suggesting that you not use torsion springs to minimize the load. I am only suggesting that you could mount the springs around the axis of the hinge and use a quarter turn actuator to rotate your ramps with a spring assist. You can either use the springs in the actuator or use garage door springs mounted at the floor to eliminate the cables.

Mark Shaw

Vancouver, WA.

[Barry Wolk]

Can you draw me a picture? I'm not following you.

[Barry Wolk]

Wait, I think I understand. The problem is that the counterweight is 250 lbs and I don't know how I'd transfer that much offset load to the round shaft that the springs mount to.

I don't understand the math but I've been told that the force needed at the lever point is 6,000 lbs. What kind of round shaft key would hold that much force? Double keyway? Spline?

[Tom M]

Hi Barry,

Nice project you have going there. I know this may be too late but did you think about having the ramps slid in and out from under the bed?

[DizzyDale]

Dear Tom,Your question regarding Barrys ramps sounds to me like a very practical and easy solution,BUT it wouldn't be much of a SHOW now would it.diz

[Tom M]

Dizzy,

True. But he could of had them roll in and out automaticlly.

[DizzyDale]

Dear Tom,Would that be electric, hydraulics or God forbid VIA my pal South of the border Manually.diz

[Tom M]

Dizzy,

Probably electric since I think Barry was trying to stay away from Hydro powered.

[Barry Wolk]

No room under the chassis. The bottom will have a complete belly pan. The mechanism would have to be even more complicated to eject 8 feet of ramp.

[Tom M]

Was just throwing out some ideas.

Why do you think it be more complicated? I was thinking to have them on some type of rollers and use a electric wench to pull then in and out or something in that order.

[Barry Wolk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was just throwing out some ideas.

Why do you think it be more complicated? I was thinking to have them on some type of rollers and use a electric wench to pull then in and out or something in that order. </div></div>

Much more complicated. in order to have 8 feet of ramp sticking out there would have to be about another 10 feet of it under the trailer to offset the overhang weight. No room.

I could just take my wench with me and have her do it manually.

[Tom M]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I could just take my wench with me and have her do it manually.</div></div> ROTFLMSAO

Well I am off do a Cabaret Show for the Lions Club. Attached is last years picture. Will post later in another thread.

[R W Burgess]

Your wife's "sister" is cute! Is she single?? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Wayne

[West Peterson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... and use an electric wench to pull them in and out or something in that order. </div></div>

Wayne, didn't you catch this? Are we supposed to be talking about such things on this forum?

[Barry Wolk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I could just take my wench with me and have her do it manually.</div></div> ROTFLMSAO

Well I am off do a Cabaret Show for the Lions Club. Attached is last years picture. Will post later in another thread. </div></div>

Nice moustache.

We were in the lead car in the Lions International parade in Detroit last year. We had the retiring head-honcho from Korea in our back seat of our Mark II convertible with his lovely wife. We had a slight communication problem as no one told me, or him, where to actually stop so we passed the podium, turned around at Cobo Hall and dropped them off across Jefferson Ave. I turned around and the entire parade had followed me. Doh!

[Shop Rat]

Wayne, I think you spent a little tooooo much time in that hospitality room.

[Mark Shaw]

Barry,

The "garage door springs" attach with a donut shaped collar that can be unlocked from the shaft (actually a steel tube) so that you can preload the spring & lock it to counterbalance the weight of the door. This balances the weight of the door so the door opener only has to overcome the enertia of the door to get it moving. The same would be true for either an electric garage door opener (usually less than 1/2 HP) or a pneumatic actuator that could rotate your trailer ramps.

Pneumatic actuators come with a square female connection sized to handle much more than the torque of the actuator. The calculation would involve the moment arm of your ramps relative to the overall weight of the rotating assembly. (I suggest you hinge the ramps at half their length to reduce the moment arm). I am no engineer, but I am sure there is a formula that someone on this site could calculate for you. When you know the required torque, I can help you select an actuator. A simple coupler supplied by the actuator manufacturer is commonly used to mate the actuator to the rod or tube being rotated.

Mark Shaw

Vancouver, WA

[Barry Wolk]

The ramps are split at 5 feet, leaving a 3 foot flipper. The extra weight is only about 12 pounds, if I've calculated correctly. Each ramp weighs 45 lbs. The real need for power is to move the spare tire. It weighs about 100 lbs.

I am looking to purchase a spare hub assembly for two purposes. One, as a spare for emergencies and the other to mount the spare tire to. This will add about 60 lbs to the ramp weight but it will be fairly close to the pivot point of the ramps.

The actuator you mentioned would work well. I'll still need to do an actual force test to determine the actual size of the unit.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Barry Wolk]

The counterbalance springs showed up yesterday. They will fit exactly the way I envisioned.

In an effort to gain as much headroom as possible I fabbed up some 5" brackets in place of the 3" brackets.

After test fitting realized that I could gain even more headroom by tipping the bracket upward to gain another 2" of clearance. In fact, the assembly hangs no lower than the trailer opening.

I mocked up an attachment point for the cables and attachment of the spare tire so that I could adjust the proper tension on the springs.

At the recommended 10 turns on each spring the cables let the ramps hang in mid air. It takes no effort to move. I may back the springs off a little. It tends to want to pull closed on its own. I'd prefer that the actuator or air cylinder do that work.

Ramps fully extended. With the spare tire mounted to the mock up, the tire hits the ground before the trailer reaches the desired 5° pitch. The final design will have to have the tire fairly flush to the top of the ramp to work properly. I feel another drawing coming on.

The original bracket held the winding drum straight out restricting headroom at the rear opening. A new adjustment hole let me snug the mechanism right up against the ceiling.

The whole mechanism fits neatly into the area above the rear opening. It will be enclosed but accessible.

[Mark Shaw]

Barry,

I don't think I mentioned that pneumatic actuators have the advantage that they can be tuned to open and close faster or slower by using a simple needle valve to control air flow in or out of the actuator. This can be done with either a double acting or spring return (fail open or closed) unit.

Mark Shaw

Vancouver, WA.

[Barry Wolk]

Where would one obtain these products? The site you posted was European. I like the idea but if I can't find in the Grainger's catalogue....

[novaman]

Here is one place you might try.

CAROTEK, INC.

P. O. Box 1395 (28106)

700 Sam Newell Rd.

Matthews, NC 28105

Brands: Atomac, Automax, Durco, Noble Alloy

Phone: 704-847-4406

Fax: 704-849-0333

Email: dave.phillips@carotek.com

Website: http://www.carotek.com

What state are you in? There might be a closer place.

[Guest]

GENERAL TRAILER TOPIC FYI

Message: 5

Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:34:36 -0500

From: "eemerick" <EEMERICK@new.rr.com>

Subject: Vintage Airstream Club Pre-International Parking and Parade`

Hello All!

2006 Vintage Airstream Club Pre-International Gathering and Parade

June 25 & 26, 2006

Vintage Airstream Club members join us for a pre-International Rally

gathering and parade into the International Rally June 25, 2006.

Experience one of the best VAC events of the International Rally, the

Vintage Parade; join 100 other VAC enthusiasts as we show our stuff to

the rest of the club and the city of Salem Oregon!

Vintage Airstream Club members are encouraged to join us on the

afternoon of June 25, 2006 (no parking before noon will be permitted)

at

the Antique Powerland Museum located at Western Antique Power, Inc.,

3995 Brooklake Road NE, Brooks, OR 97303 the phone number is (503)

393-2424. Directions to the parking area: I 5 to Exit 263, go west on

Brooklake Road NE, the Museum and parking area will be on the north

side

of the road. We will be located about 6 miles from the International

Rally.

At 8 am on June 26, 2006 we will line up and parade into the

International for a 10 am arrival. All those that plan on parking with

the VAC at the International should plan on joining us on the afternoon

25th. The cost of parking is $10/VAC trailer and a $1 to $3/person fee

for the Powerland tour and admission will be changed. (This cost per

person is dependent on the number of people we have in attendance).

For further information on the Antique Powerland Museum go to

www.antiquepowerland.com <http://www.antiquepowerland.com/> for maps

and information. There are many things to see and do at this facility,

plan on spending a very enjoyable afternoon and evening touring.

If you have any questions or needs please feel free to contact me! Ed

Emerick, 1st VP Vintage Airstream Club, <mailto:eemerick@new.rr.com>

eemerick@new.rr.com, <mailto:eemerick@jjkeller.com>

eemerick@jjkeller.com, home phone 920-954-1585 or by cell phone at

920-475-7891.

I'll see you in Salem!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6

Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:38:36 -0600

From: Chris Koehn <timberguides@koehn.com>

Subject: Re: too big for parks..?

Hello Oliver-

Just curious about which parks can't accommodate trailers over 25'..?

We've pulled our 1979 31' around the U.S. and while in a very few

instances we've been restricted to a limited number of large sites

(most notably at the Grand Canyon's older non-RV campground) we've done

well. I find pulling the 31' with our F250 diesel a breeze, and backing

it's center axle configuration easier than my 12' rear axle tool

trailer.

Thanks,

Chris

currently at Cheaha Resort State Park near Talladega, AL

Oliver Filippi wrote:

"Bill,

Personally I think a 25' travel trailer is the minimum size for comfort

without being excessively large or difficult to tow or park.

First, if the trailer is any shorter the living area (galley and lounge

[living]area) will overlap the bath and sleeping area both physically

and

functionally.

Second, a 25 footer is not too long for most campgrounds (30 footers

and

longer) are often excluded from many campgrounds - particularly public

ones,

because they are too long to maneuver along the sharp turns and narrow

driveways.

In the case of my older Airstream (1976) it has a very large fresh

water

tank and black water (toilet) tank. The grey water tank is small, but

it is

safe and easy to dispose of this most anywhere. Thus you have the

ability

to function for an extended period of time without a hookup.

You still need a competent tow vehicle, though. White knuckle towing

with a

marginal for the job tow vehicle is not my idea of recreation.

Good luck,

Oliver Filippi"

[Barry Wolk]

Nice thread hijack, Tommy.