Question on originality of Pontiacs built 1961 and later

[61-63]

This question concerns AACAs requirements, if any, that Pontiacs built 1961 and later be authentic to the build sheet. In short must they be? I belong to The Pontiac Oakland Club and as any of you who also belong know they require that in order for a 1961 or later car to be placed in the "stock" class, the owner must have obtained the build sheet for the car from Pontiac Historic Services and the car must match the build sheet item for item. Any deviation from the build sheet, even if the equipment is "correct" for the year of the car, and the car must be placed in the "modified" class.

I downloaded the AACA rule book last night and although I didn't read it word for word slowly I did not see that the above was so in AACA. So I assume if a person had for example a 1961 Pontiac, correctly optioned to that year, the car would be judged as to quality/authenticity regardless of what the build sheet said, and no deductions would be made for equipment not installed on the car when it was built.

Thanks in advance for any responses.

[Guest my3buicks]

When did that start, I know several people with Gold Senior POC cars that are sure not how they left the factory and I know for a fact that one doesn;t have his build sheet for the car.

[novaman]

AACA does not judge according to VIN number or build sheets.

If you have say a 1966 Pontiac Bonneville, you can show the car with no options, up to having every option that Pontiac made available for the 1966 Pontiac Bonneville. The one draw back to having all the options is there is the possibility of more point deductions. Example, an optional tissue dispenser. If it is there but has scratches, bent, rusted or whatever, then the judge would take appropriate point deduction. But if it wasn't there to begin with, there is nothing for the judge to take points off for since those scratches, bend, rust or whatever doesn't exist.

Hope that helps.

[61-63]

Thank you for the response.

In response to my3buicks judging in POCI has been this way since 2001 at least. I joined in late 2000 I think it was and have gone to their Nationals since then. I helped judge in 2003 and 2004 mainly to learn about my car. The build sheet thing applies only to '61 and up year cars because Pontiac Historic Services does not have access to records earlier than that. If the cars you are aware of are 1961 or later and the people don't have their build sheets perhaps their cars are being judged in modified? Or there may be shenanigans going on, which I have seen too.

Thanks again for the response. I like AACAs way better than the Pontiac clubs. Personally I wish Pontiac Historic Services didn't exit. The fact that it does and the way POCI judges is keeping some nice cars out of their organization.

[novaman]

I see all the antique car clubs as "a family". You have AACA as the "Mother hen" which tries to be "all things to all people" as we cover the common cars to the ones you never even heard of. Then you have all the "siblings", the marque clubs, where they specialize in thier area. I'm not trying to say that AACA is or is not better any of the other clubs, just that we are all "related" through the hobby and there are a lot of members that blong to AACA and other marque clubs.

As a judge in the Pontiac club, I know you have a lot of different models that you could end up judging. Can you retain ALL that infromation. Probably not. Now multiply what you need to cover all the Pontiacs and multiply it by the number of differnt models of Kaiser, Frazier, Willys, Mora, Maxwell, Whippet, Chevrolet, Buick, Mercedes, Toyota, MG, Cunningham, Brownie, ACE, A.B.C., Allstate, Continental ( a friend as a Beacon, 1 of 4 and the only sedan known to exsist), plus all the others. There are one people out there (and on this forum) that think all AACA must know all this infromation in order to judge. As an AACA Judge yo sign up for that classes you're comfortable with in knowledge. But get assign according to the needs at that show. You realy on your team mates and capain for info if you don't know and then the captain can question the owner if need be. I've judged with people fimailar with the late 40's cars, but put a Kaiser Dragon in that class and it blows thier minds. (You want to talk about an odd car, that the Dragon. If you ever have the chance to look at one, do so.) Putting soap box away.......

[Ron Green]

What you have stated regarding the POCI is absolutely correct on how they judge. I have watched their judging process evolve into what it is today. It started and still is somewhat based on the AACA system however as the years go on it gets further away.

Pontiac's records were destroyed by fire prior to 1961 thus no build sheet documentation. My 55 has won two POCI gold stock awards but is no longer allowed in the stock class, even though all is bone stock. The current color combination was factory available for my car in 55 however it left from the factory with a different color (actually more rare as it was the last color offered). Now it is deemed modified.

The POCI chief judge stated that I need to remove the original data plate and have a reproduction one made so I can return to the stock class. The new data plate would need to have the current color code numbers. In my opinion this would be destroying the cars history. I didn't like the direction POCI was going so I am no longer a member.

I have attended many POCI national conventions. They only have one a year and that is their big judged event. The final year I attended they were short on judges so the food vendors helped out with the judging. Back then you could receive a copy of your score sheet. It was quite interesting to see how a hot dog non car person vendor score your car.

[Bhigdog]

Wow Ron, a suggestion that the data plate be altered to make the car "correct" strikes me as bizzare logic. Does anyone know how the Olds group judges re: color/data plate?.......Bob

[Steve Moskowitz]

I have not judged for OCA or NAOC ins a few years but I am pretty sure they do not check the information on the data plate.

[Bhigdog]

Thanks Steve. I'm in the middle of restoring a 55 S-88. It'll be as "correct" as possible but I am changing the color. I probably won't bother with the Olds club and just stick to AACA events......Bob

[rocketraider]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow Ron, a suggestion that the data plate be altered to make the car "correct" strikes me as bizzare logic. Does anyone know how the Olds group judges re: color/data plate?.......Bob </div></div>

Strikes me as being borderline illegal... probably a way for musclecar guys to prove their car came with all the stuff they added, and lost sleep over because their car DIDN'T have it... Also- it would definitely detract from originality since the car is, technically, no longer restored to as-built. It's restored to "as-wanted", and there is a world of difference.

OCA does not judge to the data plate as far as color/trim, though I suspect that's as much due to judges' ignorance of the color and trim codes as anything. Their requirement in non-modified classes is that color must be a factory offered color for the year of manufacture. I've felt for many years that OCA's judging system needs overhaul with published guidelines and particulars, but every time I brought it up (as an OCA director), the then-head judge threatened to walk out and take the judging committee with him. So their judging program became a joke, especially after they produced that Keystone Kops style judges training video.

RE adding options and/or changing color/trim with a new dataplate: I saw this happen with 55-57 Chevys back in the 80s, when nearly every one on the showfield was a fully dressed BelAir. I asked several guys if the car was built with all the options and gadgets. Answer was invariably "No, but this is the way I'd have ordered it new."

Hmm. 1957. Chevy was the leader in the "low-priced three". It was GM's cheap, entry-level car. Most people were making, what, $1.10 an hour if that much? And these guys are telling me this is how they'd have ordered one new?

I think that's one problem we're seeing in this hobby, that people forget they have a 30+ year old car and want all the options now taken for granted on Hyundais. And if they can change body dataplates to reflect that- the original or restored-to-original car may soon be a thing of the past.

Question for POCI judges? Say we have a PHS documented car that has had its dataplate changed to reflect a color or trim change. Is it then eligible to be shown and judged in stock classes? It's certainly no longer correct per PHS documentation. What about an ORIGINAL UNRESTORED car without PHS docs? A car that could be considered a benchmark car? A car that HAS its original window sticker and dealer paperwork but no PHS docs? Dealer-added options? Too much gray area here...

I could understand separate classes for PHS documented cars, but speaking as an OCA judge and former OCA director, requiring PHS documentation to be placed in stock classes, then classing restored-correctly-to-original cars without PHS docs as modified is STUPID. Or is someone in POCI shilling for Pontiac Historical Services in exchange for factory support for the club?

And I'm sure that won't win me any friends on the POCI judging committee, but I was never known for suppressing opinions. And yes, for the past 20 years I've paid for a friend's POCI membership every year as his Christmas gift, and I often read his copy of <span style="font-style: italic">Smoke Signals</span> as well as drive one of his cars to local POCI shows, so it's not like I'm totally unfamiliar with POCI. Sure never knew about this, though.

[Ron Green]

Glenn,

This is a sore subject for me and has caused me to leave the POCI, and this rule does apply to judging in the stock class. One of my many arguments were that it destroys the vehicles history forever. Though it has been a few years since I had this discussion with the powers to be, hopefully things have changed for the better.

Here is a quote from the chief judge from an email to me,

"If I were changing colors, and I was going to spend the money for a new data plate, I would have it say PAINT=SPECIAL. Then, I could paint it any color I felt like, and change it again if I didn't like the looks of it. If you look at the data plate on the "Pink Lady", the '59 Bonneville/Catalina, it's painted a non-GM Pink (See the latest issue of HPP), and it's data plate says SPECIAL..."

[61-63]

Rocketraider I have never judged at check-in, only later on judging day, but to answer your question I think if your build sheet said the car came blue, and the plate said red and the color was red, they would tell you at check-in that you needed to be in modified class. They would let you stay in stock if you insisted but you'd get points taken off for the wrong color and probably the incorrect plate, plus everything else they could find. Remember though build sheets are available for only 1961 and up cars, nothing earlier than that. So if you got a new data plate for a '60 or earlier car it could say anything and no one could disprove it.