I Broke Another Little Old Lady's Heart Today

[ol' yeller]

Being the director of our local chapter has some perks. Having my name, number and email address listed in the national newsletter is one of them. That means I usually get contacted first when someone is wanting to sell a car and is looking for some help or advice. When it happened the first time, I started thinking how nice it would be if someone contacted me and asked for help unloading old Great Aunt Marge's Buick and discovering it was a '53 Skylark. Of course that doesn't happen. More typical is that old Great Aunt Marge drove a mid 60's or 70's 4 door version of a larger old Buick, usually a pretty stripped down model at that. It has happened to me about 5 times over the last 2 years of my reign of terror and the last one happened today. It came from a chapter member who has a very nice 1961 Invicta (?) 4 door sedan. It may have been a LeSabre. It is all original, well taken care of, but very tired with around a 100K on it. She said someone once offered her $8,000 for it. Now that she wants to sell it she believes it is now worth $12,000. I can't find a 4 door Invicta sedan in any price guide books but a 4 door hardtop in the condition of hers is worth between $2-3,000. Maybe $4,000 if she finds the right buyer who has to have a car like hers. I just left her that message with an offer to help her list it in the Bugle if she wants. I have tried in the past suggesting ebay as an alternative where they may get more money than the typical market price but then they expect me to list it for them, handle the calls and arrange the transfer. They just don't understand all that internet stuff. That is a little more than I signed up for when I volunteered to lead my chapter. Am I being heartless trying to interject some reality into their pricing? It has been suggested that I just go along with what they say, but in my opinion that is just ducking the issue and not helping them at all. I know that the elderly (especially women) are frequently taken advantage of in these kind of negotiations but it seems the tide has turned to expecting unreal prices just so they don't get taken. What do you think and do you have a better way of handling it?

[Centurion]

Greg, I'm suspecting that this is the '61 Electra sedan that's finished in the Fawn color with a white roof. The car was displayed a couple of weeks ago in Puyallup with a "for sale" sign on the dash and a $10,000 price indicated.

Interesting that you should bring this car up. The owner has displayed the car two-or-three times over the years at Puyallup, and I struck up a conversation with her the first year I saw it there -- perhaps ten years ago. The car is a nice, original car, and, when I complimented the vehicle, she latched onto my words and asked me how much I thought it was worth. I took her telephone number, and indicated that I would check the price guides. I phoned her a few days later, and advised her that I figured she could expect $2,000 or so for the vehicle. At that price, I would have been interested in it personally. She was dumbfounded, and said that she had seen another '61 Electra priced for around $20,000. I found that her reference car was an Electra 225 convertible. I think that she was somewhat miffed when I suggested that her car was worth substantially less than she was expecting. Clearly, she has maintained an unrealistic view of the car's market value. (I should point out, however, that she is a very, very nice lady.)

I think that your offer to help her list in the "Bugle" is perfect. Ordinarily, I would say that it's important to be honest with a seller regarding the value of the vehicle, and it might be worthwhile photocopying pages from the price guides to "interject some reality" into her pricing. I have a hunch, however, that this might not be received very well. For one thing, she is likely to insist that the car is a #1 vehicle. Perhaps the lack of response to her ad will communicate something to her about the pricing. My counsel would be to place the ad and let the chips fall.

[NTX5467]

Over the past few years, there have been some enterprises that will handle the eBay situation for the seller, as in getting it listed and such. Not sure just how far they will go past that, but I suspect things might be arrange "for a fee" on top of the eBay listing.

The "situation" you describe has been in play for at least 20 years. An owner has an older vehicle (doesn't really matter what make) that they hate to part with, but know they will have to eventually "let it go". Of course, they want it to go to a "loving home" too, which is understandable too. They want somebody to get it that will give it the same love they gave it, also understandable. Yet they don't want to "give it away" either.

These people typically (as mentioned) want somebody to "buffer" them from all of the lookers, also understandable. Also figure in the press that the auctions have gotten in the recent years, plus the high prices for the vehicles there. But from that point on, things can be a little touchy (where the reality comes into play).

If they price the car high enough to keep out the lookers and "modders", then they also can run off the hobby people too (due to the desire for unrealistic prices). Both valid orientations.

Probably what might be an option, and an option that will vary with locale, is to possibly refer them to one of the old car dealers in the region, who will take the car, clean it up, and make it ready for sale (or just do a quick clean up and advertise it as "original" or "as is"). That would put somebody into the mix that could also arrange financing and other things, if needed, for the buyer. I suspect the key to such a situation would be to prove what the actual selling price might really be, less any sales commissions. Plus finding a broker that was "good" in finding a buyer and such.

IF . . . the Buick Museum and Archives Foundation (the ORIGINAL group, not the BHA group that came later) had gotten off to what it could have been, it might be in the position to accept such a vehicle and broker it for the owner (or a BCA member representative). But that option is not operative at this time, for whatever reason.

Perhaps the game plan could be to price it high enough to keep the lookers away, but then sell it for a realistic price when somebody that is genuinely interested in the car (and putting it back reasonably original) comes around.

I an aware of the collectibility of low option "estate cars", but those cars can be just as much fun as a higher level model with gobs of equipment. Like buying a Buick Special rather than a Roadmaster. Less bells and whistles, the less problems to fix and worry about finding rare restoration parts for. Simple and basic can be good! Not to mention "regular gas rated" engines, in many cases.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[JohnD1956]

Hey Ol Yeller, If I was in your shoes I would do the following:

I'd give the owner a range price that was pretty wide, with additional generalized information regarding why the range was so wide. Things like factory options, factory paint upholstery in good condition, model variations and anything else particular to that car like low production numbers or more importantly in this case, high production numbers.

Then I'd suggest that there is sometimes a willing buyer at any price. Someone trying to reclaim their memories from their youth, or purchase a tribute to a lost loved one etc.

Finally I'd suggest advertising at her price just in case that special someone sees the car, with the expectation that if she really wants to sell it, she should drop the price as the driving season ebbs away. Short of that, maybe she should donate it to a grandchild if she really thinks it that valuable. Or to a charitible foundation to auction or raffle off, taking a tax deduction for the amount the car brings in this venue.

I can understand that everyones car is special to them and therefore worthy of the "over the top" dollars. It is a shame though. Think of all the people who'd love to get into the hobby if they could find a car reasonably priced.

JD

[jscheib]

It seems our director in CT gets one or more of these a month, and in many cases, most owners think they have "gem', simply because it is 25-35 years old. It is hard to give them the news that it is a worn out car, that would need more money then it is currently worth to make it the "gem" they visualize. And it is not worth near as much as they expect. I guess it just comes down to the automobile version of a "Reality Show". We do know of some people that love the large 2 and 4 door Electras that can get them up and running, so we try to hook them up. I think a number of them probably eventually get to the demolition derby. We have also posted them on the buy and sell forum, as I think that is much easier then a Bugle ad, that may link any interested parties with the owner.

I guess we could always suggest to the owners it is like your IRA, Retiremant funds or Social Security - not worth as much as you expected at this stage. That is life, I am afraid.

John

[Guest sintid58]

When we were on the trip to Flint in 2003 traveling with the cars from the northwest we stopped at a Buick dealer in MN for a scheduled show of sorts. I am sure it must have been advertised in the local paper. While we were there an elderly woman was busy passing out papers with an ad and picture for her mid 70's Lincoln 4 door. If I remember right it was low miles like new and she had a price of over $20,000. I am sure Centurion remembers this. Nothing like a bunch of car nuts to bring them out of the wood work. She was obviously hoping someone would be interested. I'll bet she was at every car show in the area also.

[Guest]

Yes, I get asked these questions a lot. I have a very low key frank way of getting my point across. I think you have to let the person know how much you know about the old car marketplace. We as Buick collectors, most of us know. Then tell that person your opinion, and that's all it is - and go with it.

Ask pointed questions "Do you want to sell the car fairly quickly or not?"

Things like that to bring some rwality into the picture.

Bryan Moran

[ol' yeller]

Thanks everyone for your input. I have handled this one by leaving her a message with a $2,000 -$4,000 price range with my belief that her car is worth closer to the lower number. Brian, you are correct in your assumption and thanks for straightening out what the car was. I agree that she is a very nice person. She said that someone left their number on her car at the show but they won't return her calls. What I was looking for here was maybe a more graceful way of handling these types of requests in the future. I just hate breaking the hearts of the little old ladies. I had one once that had a '69 Skylark 2 door hardtop. It had body damage in every panel and major rust (for the Northwest) in the front fenders, rear quarters, trunk and floorboards. It did run very well. The car belonged to the seller's recently departed mother. The seller didn't drive. She handed me the keys to back the car out of the tiny garage so I could inspect it. When I looked for her, she ran into the house with tears streaming down her face becuase she couldn't handle the memories. Someone told her that her car was worth $10,000. I injected reality gently again by first stressing that I personally had no interest in the car but it was at best a $1,000 car. It took a couple of months but she eventually did sell the car for around $600 and did email me and thank me for my help. It makes it difficult when people who don't know anything about car values feed these sellers with unrealistic expectations which are usually further fueled by their emotional attachment to the car. To a person, every time this happens, I don't think it is greed on the sellers part, just a strong desire not to get taken and sell it too cheap. I appreciate everyone's views on this subject.

[Reatta Man]

I think the key ingredient here that is making things hard for people is the story of "someone once offered me $10,000 for it." I have actually called the bluff a few times of people making those ridiculous offers. And, EVERY SINGLE TIME, they backed out of the deal!

So, these ridiculous offers were not only unrealistic, they WERE NOT SERIOUS OFFERS!

Joe

[BUICK RACER]

Well, I got one too! The little old lady across the street from me had a '69 Electra 2-door with aftermarket a/c and all the other power options, with 2800 miles on it. A couple of years ago, after her husband passed, she was cleaning out stuff, and put the car out for sale for $7000, a few people looked it, it had a couple of parking lot dents, etc. But everyone around here passed on it, and she did finally get her asking price from a guy in Norway, I believe, in fact last year or so, there were some pics from a show in Sweden on the DF here, and the car was in one of those pics! and looked great and a happy owner was found, but they are far and few between.

My Mom has a '85 Riv, that the frame has rusted out on, due to me having it undercoated when new, probably wasn't a good job, and then the car sat outside, but she refuses to give it away as the interior and drivetrain are mint. I continue to look for another '85 Riv to buy to use her good stuff on or to replace it, but she is particular on color, both in and out. The ones I have found are not cheap, and not the right color combinations usually. Little old ladies are fun to deal with!

[NTX5467]

You touched on some key things, ReattaMan . . . "not serious offers". That speaks volumes about the alleged experts that make these off the cuff valuations.

Back when I was getting around to some larger swap meets, I was also looking for discontinued parts (allegedly) that I could still source from GM. I found the classic swap meet vendor that relied on "his buddy" for information (as to correct application of the part). It was obvious that it was quoted to be about two years from the actual application, but the vendor would trust his "expert buddy" rather than somebody "off the street", so there's no trying to educate them on what's what. When I knew for a fact that what they were quoting was wrong, I'd ask the price, and then thank them for their time. Usually, even if it was for the correct application, the price was typically doubled of what the "street price" would normally be.

In the case of the estate vehicles, there can be great sentimental attachment, even if it's a basket case. Unfortunately, we'll all be there someday.

One other perspective on older car values . . . even if the car was priced way too high (by all references) for the condition, if it still ran and drove and such, if you position that higher asking price against what that same money would buy on the open used car market (in a more recent vintage vehicle), what would be the better buy? Of course, it would depend on just how much time and money would ultimately be invested by the buyer.

Better to buy a "needs work" '69 Skylark sedan at an inflated price or an oriental econobox that might have some sort of warranty? Both could ultimately need the same amount of additional investment (but in different areas) to make them what they need to be. The econobox might get better daily fuel economy, but what about when it breaks? If you're going to spend the same amount of money either way, the inflated asking price of the '69 Skylark might not be all that high after all.

I know, those that look at collectible value and future collectibility will not be players in this scenario, but others might be. They'll never get excited about spending anything on a "thousand door" car for any reason, with all due respect. Where we draw the boundaries on our respective investments is highly diverse, but who's right and who's wrong . . . nobody.

If you look in the Old Cars Price Guide, it's obvious that many of the luxury makes can get to be terrific values as they age, especially if they have been well maintained. The potential for costly repairs on the many options does exist, but compared to their "new" price, they can be "a steal" as they age.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Peter Gariepy]

Being the webmaster around here.. and having my email readily available I get 10-20 emails a month with people asking virtually the same question:

I have a {year, make, model, etc}... (mostly worn out 4 doors)

A {friend, neighbor, cousin, etc} told me its worth {4x its value}

What is the car worth?

They never send pictures or describe the cars condition btw.

I typically suggest they purchase a copy of "Old Car Value Guide" found in any large bookstore. (even had a few complain about having to spend 5 bucks)

I try not to be specific with these folks, it just gets me into trouble. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Not that a few gems havent come across.

As to the 53 Chevrolet with only 2 seats and a body with a bunch of cracks in it - it'll just have to sit until the restoration of the Bugatti is completed.

<img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Peter

[Reatta Man]

A '53 Chevy with cracks and only two seats, asking $2,500?

Hmmm....it is either what you first thought it was as you grab your keys and a map and head for the door....or it is grampa's 2-door post sedan that had the back seat taken out to make room for his hunting dogs that has been under a very sappy tree for 15 years....and the cracks are in the 20-year-old Earl Scheib paint job, not the fiberglass body.

See how collector car values are sooooooo easily manipulated?

[ol' yeller]

I have restored several old cars, most were ground-up frame-off restorations. I am not a concours builder but my cars are very nice drivers that you would not be afraid to take on a long trip or ashamed of them at the local cruise-in. The problem with overpaying for the car in the first place is that you are already upside down before you spend any money on the restoration. Restoration is expensive even if you do a lot of the work yourself. Regarding the Electra it is a nice old car and there may be someone out there who has to have one of these and is willing to overpay to get it. It is not reality to expect that is what is going to happen. This owner is quite elderly and I expect she couldn't handle having people coming to her home, test driving her car and negotiating the sale. In fact she has an unlisted phone number and didn't want to put it on the sign she placed in the windshield. In her case she is probably best suited to send it to a classic car dealer on consignment but she needs to realistic in her expectation. The dealer will need to make some on the sale so there needs to be room in her pricing for that. I suspect that if her starting price is too high, a reputable dealer won't even take the consignment as he isn't there to store cars, but to sell them. My suggestion to her would be to place the car at the dealer with a price of $5,000 to start but be prepared to accept closer to what the car is actually worth. I don't know if the classic car dealers would agree to work this way. I am pretty certain no one would accept her car at $12,000.

[Guest imported_Thriller]

I hear you Peter...I look after (sort of...I've been slacking) the web site for a local club and I get all sorts of e-mails. Usually, if I have time, I'll look up the prices in my most recent Old Cars Price Guide I have on hand...if I have less time, I'll typically direct them to a couple of the online value guides.

There have been a couple of times they were Buicks...one was a '53 Special convertible...I grabbed my price guide, got another Buick nut and the family in the minivan and we were off...the guy had the cartoon $$ in his eyes with having about 4 things he planned to spend the money on. The car was OK, but a poor patch job on the floor, mismatched door panels, custom colors of paint, and orange peel everywhere...I showed him the Old Cars Price Guide and their condition guide, explained to him it was a number 3, and offered him more than the number 3 price...he said he'd have to consult with the wife who was out of town that weekend...he never answered another e-mail or voice mail that I sent.

The next one was this spring...many of you have read about it here...I wound up buying the '29 as part of an estate. I went out there interested (actually more curious) with the price guide and offered them what I thought was a fair price...I was willing to go higher, but they accepted my initial offer.

Too many people now see things like the Barrett Jackson auctions on TV or results in the local paper and think of old cars as gold mines.