How can this car be AACA Senior???

[hollywood958]

Has anyone seen the Jan issue of the new Hemmings Collector Car magazine? The cover features a 66 Toronado. In addition to a story about 66 Toronados, there is a story about the restoration of this car. The car is described as a 2003 AACA Senior that has subsequently received Preservation awards.

The car is clearly an incorrect color (the owner admits it is Corvette Torch Red). I'm not positive, but the interior also appears to be an incorrect color.

I'm new to the hobby and not intimate with AACA judging. However, if I understand the judging form posted on the AACA website, it looks like an incorrect color is a mandatory 40 point deduction. If so, how is it a car with under 360 points become a Senior? This assumes the rest of the car has no other deductions, which seems unlikely.

Since the owner is from PA, I assume the car was judged at Hershey.

Can anyone from AACA judging explain this to me? It seems that a car that is so obviously inauthentic, displaying its AACA Senior badge on a national magazine cover, creates a credibility problem for AACA and its judging methods.

[Guest greg72monte]

I wondered the same thing when I read the article.

Didn't the story also state that it had radial tires?

[Centurion]

I have no knowledge of this particular car, and I have not seen the photo. Hopefully, someone will have knowledge of this particular vehicle.

During the time that the Toronado was built, many of the General Motors car lines could be ordered new from the factory in non-standard colors at extra cost. Typically, these would be other General Motors colors. I am aware, for example, of a Buick convertible ordered new in an exclusive Corvette green color. This was not as uncommon as some might expect, based on daily production report data I've seen for Buicks provided by the Sloan Museum in Flint. The important item here would be documentation to prove that the car was delivered in this paint color by Oldsmobile. The Fisher Body data plate should clearly indicate if the car were delivered in a special order color. It does seem to me that a unique interior would have been more difficult to build, however, so it seems unlikely that this could have occurred when the car was new.

I look forward to reading other responses to this topic.

[hollywood958]

I have seen cars with special order paint, but I don't think that is the case here. In the article on the restoration of the car, the owner is quoted as saying he didn't like the original darker red on the car and elected to have it painted in a bright shade of red (his words were Corvette Torch Red).

Yes, the car had radial tires. I think these may have been available as a factory option, but certainly not in the modern p-metric sizes.

Another item, the wheel cover centers have been painted red to match the car.

Don't misunderstand me. I am all for individual expression. Paint it purple, if you want to. My point is that the car is held out by the magazine as some spectacular restoration that was deservingly awarded AACA Senior status. With all due respect to the owner, it is not a restoration, but a restification. That seems to be the term the hot rod mags use to justify updates and changes during a restoration.

[Centurion]

Hollywood958, thanks for clarifying the details of this specific car.

I will look for this issue on the newsstand. Any comments regarding the Toronado article in this issue? When I purchased the initial issue of this publication, I was impressed by the general lay-out and concept of the magazine. I thought that some of the articles or editor's notes contained some glaring factual errors, however.

[Jay Wolf]

Someone can chime in and correct me if I am wrong but it is my understanding, from being a judge and the manual that non-original color of paint is a 10 points mandatory deduction not 40 points.

40 point Non authentic is non authentic body parts like fiberglass fenders.

So a car painted the wrong color could get a senior.

Tires are a max of 3 points so with spare that 12 points total

so

400 -10 is 390 -12 is 378.

378 is a senior car. With 3 points to spare.

So a car with radials and the wrong color can win a senior.

[hollywood958]

Jay,

I appreciate the clarification. I looked at the judging sheet and saw "non-authentic" listed below color, and assumed it meant non-authentic color. Apparently it means non-authentic body or body part.

Still, it sure looks to be cutting it close to make Senior with wrong color + radial tires.

Can you explain if there is a deduction for incorrect interior color? I couldn't see a spot for this on judging sheet. This car sure seems to have the wrong color for a 66 Toro.

[Guest greg72monte]

Jay, Thank you for your input as a judge.

3 points X 5 tires (including the spare) = 15

minus 10 for the wrong paint is 375 points, which in fact would qualify it for a senior ONLY if the rest of the car was PERFECT, and if there wasn't much competition in the class. I hope to see more judges input on this.

Thanks

[Jay Wolf]

You?re correct I meant to say "without" spare.

Depends on when the car won it senior there was lots of confusion on radial tires in past years.

Lots of judges considered radial tire did perform the function the factory intended the tire to perform so they could not take the maximum deduction.

So deducted 1 per tire, some 2 per tire even acceptance as a safety item by some judges.

As with any judging it can not always be objective.

A lot of judging is subjective.

Then you have the issue of knowledge base of the judges.

I would personally have no idea if the red on the Toronado was the right color red or not unless someone told me it was wrong. Not many owners are going to volunteer that information. There is a good chance no one on the team with enough knowledge to say for sure it was the wrong color.

I have been on both sides when I show my 1955 Thunderbird, judges know where every spot of paint overspray should be and judging is tough. When I used to show my 64 Amphicar, most judges had never seen one and no one would question incorrect color or other minor changes. So judging was easier on that car.

AAAC judging may not be perfect, but it is the best I have seen.

[Guest greg72monte]

I for one, would NOT be happy getting my Senior under false pretenses.

I call it personal pride, knowing that I really earned it!

The owners of "those other cars" have to live with it.

The issue here seems to be that a national publication "Hemmings Classic Car" presents this car as a "Senior" when there may be doubts with its qualifications.

[hollywood958]

The magazine is Hemmings Classic Car, not Collector Car (oops!)

Jay, your points are good ones. However, a 66 Toronado ain't no Amphicar. While I wouldn't expect a judge to know every factory color, I would expect that late model Corvette Torch Red should stand out like a sore thumb on a 1966 car, where even the brightest factory reds were subdued compared with today's colors. Sounds like you haven't seen the magazine cover, but let me tell you that the color on this car SCREAMS out as incorrect.

Greg72Monte, I'm with you. Seems like so-called Senior cars should be the best and most authentic. Skating through the judging process due to uninformed judges would offer no pride or satisfaction to me either!

Anyone else seen the magazine yet? What about that interior? I thought the color was wrong, but a friend with more Olds knowledge than me believes the sew pattern may be incorrect as well.

[Guest 70 Electra]

Whoo-eee! I concur with Hollywood. A friend just showed me his subscription copy (this issue not on our Detroit newstands yet), and that car is really RED!

I'm not sure what's up with the seats, but they look like they've been recovered with a nice soft (beige) grain out of a late model luxury car! And I agree those wheel cover centers look to have been painted to match the car.

Hey, more power to this guy for modifying the car to suit his tastes. To each his own! However, I do think this car was a poor choice to feature on the cover of a national magazine that presumably promotes preservation and authenticity. Also, the AACA badge on the car does beg the question that Hollywood posed to all of us.

[1937hd45]

This car is way out of my range of interest, but I felt the same way when AACA gave a NATIONAL AWARD at Philadelphia to a 1912 Model T Ford Fordor Touring..........that was missing BOTH front doors. That was the main selling feature on the Ford Touring car in 1912!

[Guest BruceW]

I don't know, but maybe this bit if information from the Model T Ford Club of America ( http://www.mtfca.com/index.htm )might explain the missing doors on the 1912:

"Ford?s 1912 fiscal year began October 1, 1911. At that time they were producing the typical 1911 style Tourings; the ones with the ?step-side? body and the open front compartment. Cars built during October, of this style, could be called ?1912? Fords. By December, 1911, (approximately) this same body was supplied with the add-on front ?fore doors.?

Based on this info, maybe it was an early 1912 model?

Just a thought.

[Guest greg72monte]

I looked over the car in question quite closely at Hershey. Having once owning one, it held special interest to me. No question, the car was beautiful, but I knew immediately that it was not right. Yes, the color and tires as previously discussed, and I agree the interior was not right either, but I could not tell for sure what was wrong. The trunk was as finely finished as a modern luxury car, but I don't remember GM/Olds ever making the trunk as luxurious as this one in the 60's. Having judged in the VCCA for several years, but not yet an AACA judge, I do speak with some experience. Taking liberties with a "restoration" is up to the owner, but I believe the car is not a "Senior" by AACA standards.

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Based on this info, maybe it was an early 1912 model?

</div></div>

Thanks Bruce, Sad thing it was the later style, the true "1912" Fordor body, a twin to the one I've owned since 1983.

[Shop Rat]

Jay, Was your Amphicar at Hershey several years ago back when the showfield was near the old stadium? If so then I was on the judging team that had one of those in it one year.

After seeing those in the movies and on TV it was fun to see on "in person".

[nearchoclatetown]

Hollywood, funny that you would use this car as a sample. As it is local, I have seen it several times. It was a Chip's Choice at the first GM national at Carlisle. The sign with it said it was a white car painted red, Black int. changed to tan, chrome wheels and disc brakes added. The comments above about getting other GM colors from the factory are true, but there would be documentation, Window sticker, body tag, etc. I even saw a mid 70's Corvette that was ordered in Primer and the body tag said so. This subject has been brought up from time to time concerning AACA awards. I personally think a car that is changed from the way it was delivered is modified. I understand judges would be all day checking numbers at a show like Hershey, but really question whether a car like and others should be able to obtain the Grand National. Either it's original or it's not.

[rwoods]

is there any chance this car was judged before it was repainted ?

[Guest]

Probably not.

[1937hd45]

I finally saw a copy of this magazine at Barnes & Noble, and sure don't see what the fuss is all about. I know the late model guys are real picky about matching numbers and options, but to Joe Adverage the car looks great and having AACA get some attention is good in my book. Nothing in the magazine that was worth the sale price, but I'll flip through it next time just to see if there could be.

[hollywood958]

Are you kidding me? On a post-war car, if the color and interior are not correct, what is left....it is nothing but a street rod!

If the AACA is not concerned about authenticity or it's reputation when a car like this is promoted by a national magazine, then it will never be a credible judging organization-at least as far as authenticity is concerned.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Hollywood, AACA would not <span style="font-weight: bold">knowingly</span> bestow a prize on any car that did not deserve it. The car is incorrect as an authentic restoration and the owner has not hid that fact from anyone to my knowledge. It is a very nice looking car and the owners obviously like it a lot. You and I would have restored the car as it came from the factory but it is not our car. Our judging system, like everyone I know in the country is not mistake free. I was involved in a judging "dispute" within the Olds club where a car recieved an award it should not have so it can happen even in the single marquee clubs. We will continue to work towards making our judging system better!

[1937hd45]

I just watched "Rides" the other nite the Jay Leno '67 Toranado is the one to judge all others by in my opinion, puts this red one to shame.

[Dynaflash8]

Wrong material does not a street rod make, just a point loser. On the other hand, bucket seats in a bench seat car that did not offer bucket seats usually does. The same is true of rally wheels, and hiked up rear ends. And, too, a 350 Chevy engine (which seems to be the choice) shows what the owner is really thinking. A wrong color, though, on an otherwise stock body means a major deduction, but does not define the car, in and of itself, a street rod? No. Many of the cars we see have the wrong color, even when there has been an attempt at making it right. Large metallic flakes when they should be tiny are now common, wrong shades appear in wide variety, etc. Sometimes when standing by themselves without another correct car to compare them with, they even look right. If everything had to be perfectly correct, then there would be no need for the point deductions. Point deductions are intended to GRADE a car, piece by piece. What it amounts to is a complilation of point deductions that score a car down. Sometimes one major thing that is really incorrect may not cause enough deduction by itself to eliminate a car. For example, it is the only car in the Class. It only has to score 365 points to win a First Junior. The interior material is recognized as incorrect, but everything else is okay (unlikely I realize) and suddenly you have a winner, honest fair and square. Stuff happens is what I'm saying. You know what they say in football...."on any given day, any team can win."

[Jay Wolf]

My Classic Car

I was watching TV the other night and ?My Classic Car? came on.

I don?t know if it was rerun or new.

But Denis was looking at a 55-56 Lincoln Mark I I

with modern (1968 I think?) 430 ci drivetrain in it once owned by one of the Mr. Fords.

Dennis Gage commented on it having an AACA first and senior award.

The owner explained that AACA approved it because the car

was upgraded by Ford at the factory.

Does this sound odd to any of you?

I thought AACA was the way the originally left the factory

Not the way it left the factory 10+ years later as a street rod.

I am going from memory so my years may be off a year or two.

To me this is far worse than the Oldsmobile Toronado in ?Hemmings Collector Car Magazine?.

Does anyone know the AACA side of this story?

[nearchoclatetown]

Jay, is the Lincoln you are talking about blue?

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Jay, is the Lincoln you are talking about blue? </div></div>

Funny, I just sold a post card of that very car last week. Henry Austin Clark took the photo and it was noted on the back that a Ford family member owned it. If they keep the hood closed it should keep peoples shorts fron getting all knotted up.

[Guest leadfoot]

The Ford product that was the subject of the show was a '56 Continental Mark II, which they pointed out was a two year Ford Moto5r Corp. luxury car division that folded after '56, though the Continentals continued as Lincolns. These cars from '55/56 were supposedly assembled off-line from the usual assembly line and were super premium priced at $10,000. When fully optiond, the '56 Cadillac Eldorado was priced between $5K and $6K. The "Ford" who drove the car was Henry Clay Ford, William Ford's dad.

[Guest]

That's William Clay Ford, I believe.

hvs

[Jay Wolf]

But it is still a 1956 that had a 1968 460 engine, transmission and disk brakes put in it 12 years after it left the factory.

Regardless of who did it. It is a hot rod.

Not a special order or concept car.

[nearchoclatetown]

Jay, would you agree it belongs "somewhere" in the AACA, but maybe not a stock class?

[Guest]

The same applies to a 1938 Cadillac V-16 convertible that was retrofitted with a Hydramatic transmission in about 1953 by the Cadillac factory. I know the car, the current and previous owner and have seen the documentation of the factory work. Though it is all Cadillac and the modification was done by Cadillac it is subject to point deductions during AACA judging for the modification.

It would therefore seem to me that the Lincoln would be subject to deductions for non authentic components just like the Cadillac.

However I do not view this type of modification when done by the company that originally built the car as constituting a "Hot Rod." In my humble opinion later factory modification is totally different from a car modified by an individual

I believe the car has every right to be entered in it's AACA class as if it were totally stock and then suffer the deductions. It would be no different from a 1941 Cadillac painted purple with '53 Cadillac wire wheels and radial tires. It isn't correct and would be hit with all kinds of point deductions, but it still belongs in class 19e.

hvs

[1937hd45]

I agree Howard, if the Lincoln in question had the hood closed who would know. Better to have the car on the field than banned. Not every car in an AACA National Meet is there for a trophy, and that modification has a nice history to go with it. If it was there to be judged, sure hit it for every deduction that is post production.

[Guest]

Bob ~ Earlier today I received an e-mail from a friend relative to my post, in which he made some good points regarding a new class for these cars. In thinking over what I wrote to him, I thought the same points might be of some worth here.

"I see your points as being valid, but I still feel mine are based on history. That Cadillac was shown in 19d and lost points accordingly. There can't be very many of that type of factory updating of a production model out there now, nor were there many that authentic factory updates in the modern era.

What do you do with all of the great early cars like Rolls, Isotta, Hispano, Bugatti Packard, Pierce etc. from the teens and 20s that had FACTORY body swaps and updates in their era. We accept 4 wheel brake upgrades from 2 wheel on early Springfield Rolls Royces. It was a factory upgrade. They have been shown in class for years without any thought of a separate class. Will they all have to be moved to 37?

I personally think documented factory modifications and updates should be accepted in their class WITHOUT penalty.

We allow handicap modifications, why not factory modifications for physical and other reasons. I believe the '38 Cadillac was modified because of the owner's age and physical condition. He wanted to keep his V-16 series 90 convertible and did NOT want a '53 convertible. What a super job Cadillac did. They even left the clutch pedal in place connecting it to the brake pedal with a black piece of metal so that when you depressed the brake pedal, both pedals went down. It really looked like two separate pedals. I imagine you could also use the clutch for the brake as that piece of metal was pretty stout.

Just my thoughts."

HV

In light of the above thoughts, I should like to add that a factory modification of their own vehicle is truly a part of the history of that make. The car you or I might modify similarly, <span style="font-weight: bold">IS NOT!</span>

Again, just my opinion.

HV

[1937hd45]

One thing I really enjoy is a car with a known family history, mass produced or high end Classic, these cars are special. I also know a Hot Rod when I see one, we are NOT talking about Hot Rods here. Modifications that were made by the original owner to keep the car in safe drivable condition. Rebodied Classics were common in the day and are a part of the history of the automobile. This is accepted in AACA, but works in Classics ONLY. If you try to show a Model T Ford with a Mercury Speedster body you won't get judged. However that same chassis can have a new depot hack body bolted on and drive home with a First Junior Award. Are there a lot of original upgraded drivetrain cars out there? I don't think so, I wouldn't bar them from the show field, highlight the documented modifications, but take the proper deductions if the car is shown to be judged.

[nearchoclatetown]

Bob, Howard, and anyone else that will listen, isn't this Lincoln and the Caddy that HVS describes the truest definition of class 37? They have been modified with all the documentation, and certainly have history. The Lincoln was owned by a Ford and factory painted to match his football team's colors. Can't get more history then that. To me, to have these cars in the standard class takes advantage of the rules. To punish them for the mods isn't right either. I don't think either that these cars are hotrods, but they certainly aren't the "as delivered" cars some people say belong in the AACA.

[Guest]

QUOTE: but they certainly aren't the "as delivered" cars some people say belong in the AACA.

Choc ~ Don't you believe in reincarnation. Both versions came from the same "maker,"

hvs

[nearchoclatetown]

Howard, I think it has more to do with eating/keeping the cake thing. People like modifications but are afraid to admit it.

[Guest]

Could be. I think I have exhausted my available input on this subject.

hvs