Bengal dead?

[adoldfield]

thecarconnection.com reports that Bob Lutz has killed the Buick Bengal project because it was going to be too costly. Bengal, you'll recall, is the concept Buick convertible named best in show at last year's North American International Auto Show.<BR>How sad, if true! The first new Buick in years I've been the least bit excited about buying. We are left with a line-up of aging four door sedans, and a truck. What's to be excited about? I would hope Lutz would replace the Bengal project with something else exciting, and then fast-track it. A convertible with some horsepower would be nice.<BR>Lutz is supposed to be bringing his car-guy attitude to inject life into GM; fine. Do it! Lots of GM executives can kills cars - Riviera, two-door coupes, convertibles. How about a GM exec who can create cars people aspire to. For now, I'll continue to drive Buicks from my graveyard of dead Buicks: my Riviera, my Grand National, or my LeSabre T-type.<BR>Maybe I can find a Ford dealer to sell me a Thunderbird.<BR>Alan Oldfield<BR>#15140

[Guest Skyking]

Maybe Lutz took a good look at the Bengal and said, "this is too dam ugly to sell". Geez! they can't come up with a pretty car. Who is designing these things anyway, the blind? If they do something with the Blackhawk and make it affordable, maybe they can get back on there silly feet!!

[Guest]

Didn't Buick make a small sport convertible back in 1991??! What was it called??!! It boosted Buick sales how much???!!!! Perhaps Mr. Lutz has a thing called foresight.

[Reatta Man]

Alan, <P>You are right that they need to make desirable cars. The car guys knew that in the 50's and 60's--they made jazzy convertibles that didnt sell in large numbers in order to feature them in their commercials and place them in TV shows, then draw customers into the showroom. For every 10 guys who came in looking for "that red convertible I saw advertised by Little Joe on Bonanza last night," Chevy sold about seven of them a sedan and two of them a two-door coupe. Maybe one in ten actually bought the convertible. <P>Nowdays, the bean counters have been in control at GM for so long (20+ years), you are considered a heretic if you propose building a car that you know in advance will not sell in large numbers just to draw people in. It's this kind of thinking that has frustrated the loyal dealers for years, and sent many potential Buick buyers into a Lexus, BMW or a Mercedes. <P>Well if that is the case, I hope Bob Lutz is voted Heretic of the Year for the next ten years in a row because he builds exciting cars that don't necessarily sell in the hundreds of thousands, but are fun to own and drive! Build something exciting and watch me race to the dealer every year or two to buy a new one!<P>Joe

[BUICK RACER]

GM's Lutz kills Buick Bengal concept roadster<BR>DETROIT, Dec 19 (Reuters) - General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM - news) Vice Chairman Bob Lutz, who said last week that there is ``turmoil and change'' in GM's future product lineup, has killed plans for the Buick Bengal, a roadster that drew widespread praise when it was unveiled as a concept earlier this year, industry sources said on Wednesday.<BR>ADVERTISEMENT<BR> <BR> <P>The Bengal, inspired by golfer and Buick spokesman Tiger Woods, was the latest in a number of concept vehicles from Buick that were trotted out as part of GM's plans to turn around the struggling brand.<P>The sleek Bengal, which featured a small third door on the driver side, faced too many potential production problems and escalating cost estimates, the automotive web site TheCarConnection.com reported on Wednesday.<P>Some General Motors personnel held out hope that the automaker would reconsider once DaimlerChrysler AG (NYSE CX - news) launched the Chrysler Crossfire, a sports coupe scheduled to go on sale in 2003.<P>Lutz, the former Chrysler executive credited with reviving the automaker with distinctive vehicles, said last week in an interview with several reporters that one or two products have been canceled, others deferred and still more pulled ahead or added.<P>His hiring stirred hopes within GM that he could help bolster the automaker's lineup, which has been criticized for being too conservative.

[ranchero]

I say good riddance to the Bengal. Sorry, but it was just plain ugly and had a fwd 6 to boot.<P>Don't give up on Lutz. Viper and Prowler did not do much for Chrysler's bottom line, but they did make it to the marketplace in the time of minivans. Something better than the Bengal could happen at Buick.<P>That new Thunderbird is itself a success but look at the rest of Ford now - the car company currently in the deepest trouble. A beautiful, stunning, exciting car can't be counted on to do wonders for an otherwise moribund company.<P>There is hope for Buick and Lutz is key. He has not been at GM long; give it awhile. <P>Until then I'll keep my '97 Riviera and keep adding points on my GM card. But Lutz better get busy; I've ordered a new German car.

[Guest]

Well, the trend of hopes dashed and dreams destroyed continue from beloved Buick. All of you can name at least 10 great Buick Concepts/Ideas that have been dropped in the past several years. Remember the Regal Cielo? Where is it? I think we can all understand that we will never see a concept make it to the road. But, I think we all deserve some of the style, gee-whiz tech and the performance of what these concepts allude to.<P>I hope you are right when you say "maybe something better than the Bengal" could emerge from Lutz. <P>Maybe we can borrow the Corvette (can I say that here?) chassis and put a Riviera on Top. Cool. it is OK for Caddilac to do it, what can't we? Oh, and don't put the 3.8SC engine in it. Time for a V8 Buick.<P>Weaping in Minnesota.<BR>Paul

[Guest Skyking]

You know what would be nice. Bring back the 63 Riviera, only with all the high tech running gear.....They would blow everone away.......

[Guest]

I agree Skyking...<BR>The only mid-size RWD cars these days are $40,000 Mercedes CLK's. The 63-65 Rivs were just the right size that they could be parked and manuvered easily, yet big enough to be comfortable and safe.<P>I think Buick should build the Signia Wagon. It looked a hell of a lot better than the Rendevous, which is another bread and butter car. Who knows, they might start a trend.<P>And of course the Blackhawk would make a great movie star car. Its decadence would set it apart from the rest of the sports coupes and put it in the class of the Jaguar XK8 or other big European coupes.

[AK Buickman]

Why does this announcement not surprise me?<BR>Did anyone really think that the recent top GM management would dare to give the motoring public something EXCITING, and to entice customers to their showrooms? Why should they use 40-50 year old GM Corporate logic??<BR>I will not complain as long as there are still some '66 Wildcats or '67 Rivieras for sale in the future. Styling of a car is my first consideration, so I'll continue to buy stylish old Buicks in place of something brand new and ugly, until I have no other choice. <BR>Right now, my everyday driver 1972 Electra 225 serves me well. Most mechanical parts are either in stock at the parts store, or easily obtained. It has all of the modern conveniences that I need (OK, it does not have 19 cup holders like the new models).<P>This announcement could be a blessing in disguise; maybe the name WILDCAT will be appropriately used in some upcoming Buick sports model.<BR>AK Buickman, BCA #1955..........

[BUICK RACER]

Here's the scary part, the Signia, Cielo, Bengal and LaCrosse will all be on display at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit, Jan 12-21, and the Buick display will be where the Oldsmobile display was 2 years ago in the back, and Lutz said "there are no other divisions going away", well whenever they say things are not going to happen, I don't trust them, why even comment on it, so who knows what will happen with Buick, or GMC for that matter.<BR>8.5 years to 30 with GM, and counting! RV<p>[ 12-20-2001: Message edited by: BUICK RACER ]

[NTX5467]

I saw another news article on the 18th or 19th that was similar to the one Roberta posted, but it added that if they could not make the production Bengal look significantly like the concept Bengal, then it would be killed. Then cost issues arose and Lutz pulled the plug on it.<P>The way the article sounded, the previous GM guys knew there might be production issues and gently mentioned that to Lutz. That's when he said that if the concept and production Bengals could not be the same, he'd kill the project.<P>The Viper, Prowler, and other Chrysler concept cars were fully production ready and functional vehicles whereas GM typically built concepts that were not that way. Kind of like "We can do this for a show car, but to build it would be another issue altogether." When interest in the Viper, Prowler, and Crossfire were deemed to be significant, the business case for those vehicles was fully explored and things happened.<P>The Bengal looked neat in many ways, but so did the XP2000 several years ago. But, in my opinion, the Bengal was just too wimpy when compared to the Blackhawk.<P>I suspect that with some of the GM Board members that brought their version of brand management to GM and their aid, Mr. Zarella, now gone, I doubt that any more car lines (i.e., divisions) will leave GM. I hope the placement of Buick in the display has no hidden agenda! I tend to concur with Roberta's orientation of what is said will not happen, happening, but I feel there's a strong enough business case for there not to be any more division's being discontinued.<P>By comparison, Buick's mission (especially since the late '80s) has been clear whereas Olds was given a mission that was terribly flawed and a set up for failure, not to mention that terrible advertising for Olds back then! The handwriting's been on the wall regarding Olds for quite some time, it just finally came to pass recently, as ill advised as it might have been. My gut instinct tells me that there very well could have been hidden agendas involved. But that's history . . . . At least Buick's had some neat concept cars that could well be the aspirational vehicles that Buicks always have tended to be.<P>At <A HREF="http://www.detnews.com/autoinsider," TARGET=_blank>www.detnews.com/autoinsider,</A> there was an interesting interview with Mr. Lyons of Buick. Pretty neat. <P>One thing that seems to be on the horizon is the replacement of the Buick 3800 and the Chevy 2.8L engine families in the reasonably distant future. On the GMPowered site, the old GMPowertrain site you can find at <A HREF="http://www.gm.com," TARGET=_blank>www.gm.com,</A> the engine families that GMPowertrain designed are listed prominently, but the Chevy and Buick engines are listed under "Other". It's one thing for GMPowertrain to toot their own horn, but another to put their inherited engines in a corner to hide, so to speak. I believe there was an interview on the AutoInsider site with a GMPowertrain guy that talked about the new V-6 family, if I remember correctly, that might be in the archives of those articles.<P>One good thing about Lutz is that he understands strict cost controls (like the accountants and other financial people that have dominated GM design for so long) plus he fully understands building neat vehicles with the same money that you can build mediocre vehicles with. One interview by the "AutoWeek" magazine editors indicated that his book, "GUTS", will indicate what the culture at GM will be in the future. He should interface well with both sides, accounting and design, to everyone's mutual benefit. <P>Who would have thought that all of those previous Chrysler people that worked at Chrysler during the Lutz era would find themselves working for him again at GM??<P>Enjoy!<BR>NTX5467

[Guest]

Great discussion and I would like to add that marketing for Buick has to come into play. I was impressed when they rolled out the Bengal with Tiger Woods. I thought great, Buick is trying to appeal to a younger market that it needs to carry it in the future. I liked the looks of the Bengal and the grill screamed, "I'm a Buick". I really appreciate the production cost problems that has probably kept this vehicle out of production, but Buick needs to get peoples attention and I don't think vehicles like the Rendevous isn't going to do that.

[Guest COMPACTBC]

If Buick wants to produce a sports roadster/ coupe/convertible they need to LOSE THE F.W.D. and get an engine with some performance installed in the car with a stick shift option. This is how you get the interest of the younger and young at heart drivers. They will never compete with BMW,Mercedes or Lexus until they do this. I don't know of any sucessful production sports roadster that has F.W.D.

[lrg50]

Look how G.M. treats Buick!!! It doesn't. Chevrolet is volume, Pontiac is sporty, Olds is gone, Cadillac is luxury. They throw Buick some modern technology on occasion when they remember that they are there. Its like when you are cleaning around the house and you find things you don't use very often but you don't want to through it out either. Not a very good omen for Buick. Buick might be at the same crossroads that Olds was at just a few years ago! The next few major decisions concerning Buick may determine whether it lives or dies.

[Guest]

Here's a solution: Get rid of all these features that are making it costly and hard to produce. Who cares about convetable top, third door, and backward tranny. Maybe we were just exited because it was a two-door.

[86 2dr.ltd]

Pretty interesting, one guy wants $60,000 Mercedes tecnology and one guy just wants a Buick thats "got it". I thought the Bengal was killed because of rising production costs. <P>Would road-ride sensing suspension lower production costs. What happens when something gives out with that system while under the test? <P>I was looking forword to finding out how that powertrain would perform. Some really liked the grill and it is cool the way it retro'd but I thought it need to be toned down to fit the era it was to be built for.<P>More wasted money.

[Dave@Moon]

All concept car are produced with features that'd be too expensive to build in mass production. That's how they push the envelope.<P>This cancellation is Mr. Lutz's way of ensuring his legacy within GM. He wants to shape the cars in his image, not adapt those of his predecessors'. At this point you just have to trust he has something better in mind. <P>Personally, I still think the Bengal would've made (with a lot of work) an interesting near-luxury coupe for GM. A Buick TT, if you will.<P>It's a brave new world for the Buick "brand".

[Guest Skyking]

I almost hate to see what this is going to look like

[BUICK RACER]

Check this out:<BR>FOR RELEASE: December 21, 2001<P>GM Invests In Cunningham Motor Co.<BR>NEW YORK - General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM) and Cunningham Motor Co. today announced that GM has acquired a minority equity stake in Cunningham, a virtual car company seeking to develop a world class grand touring car. <P>"GM is excited to be an investor in Cunningham and we look forward to helping the company develop a successful business plan to make the dream of a virtual car company a reality,? said GM Vice Chairman and Chief Financial Officer John Devine.<P>Cunningham Motor was created to develop and produce a grand touring car that would compete with Ferrari, Aston Martin and other world class touring cars in North America and Europe. The company was founded in January 2000 by Briggs Cunningham III and Robert A. Lutz, who joined GM as vice chairman of product development last August and was recently named to the additional post of chairman of GM North America. <P>Under a governance framework approved by GM?s Board of Directors, Lutz will not participate in transactions between the two companies but will continue to be a member of the Cunningham Board of Directors. Additionally, GM will appoint a member to the Cunningham Board. The C7 concept car was unveiled to the public in January 2001 at the North American International Auto show in Detroit.<P>?Cunningham Motor Company is pleased and gratified to have GM as an investor in the company?s efforts to develop the first true American grand touring car since Briggs Swift Cunningham last did so in 1953,? said Jack McCormack CMC president and chief executive officer. <P>As a virtual car company, Cunningham?s business plan calls for outside suppliers to be responsible for the design, engineering, and production of its vehicles. Roush Industries of Livonia, Mich. has been selected to develop and integrate the C7. Cunningham intends to build and sell about 600 C7 Grand Touring cars per year with a sticker price of $250,000. General Motors (NYSE: GM), the world?s largest vehicle manufacturer, designs, builds and markets cars and trucks worldwide. In 2000, GM earned $5 billion on sales of $183.3 billion, excluding special items. It employs about 363,000 people globally. More information on General Motors can be found at <A HREF="http://www.gm.com." TARGET=_blank>www.gm.com.</A>

[86 2dr.ltd]

Whats that smell?

[BUICK RACER]

Check this out:<BR>FOR RELEASE: December 21, 2001<P>GM Invests In Cunningham Motor Co.<BR>NEW YORK - General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM) and Cunningham Motor Co. today announced that GM has acquired a minority equity stake in Cunningham, a virtual car company seeking to develop a world class grand touring car. <P>"GM is excited to be an investor in Cunningham and we look forward to helping the company develop a successful business plan to make the dream of a virtual car company a reality,? said GM Vice Chairman and Chief Financial Officer John Devine.<P>Cunningham Motor was created to develop and produce a grand touring car that would compete with Ferrari, Aston Martin and other world class touring cars in North America and Europe. The company was founded in January 2000 by Briggs Cunningham III and Robert A. Lutz, who joined GM as vice chairman of product development last August and was recently named to the additional post of chairman of GM North America. <P>Under a governance framework approved by GM?s Board of Directors, Lutz will not participate in transactions between the two companies but will continue to be a member of the Cunningham Board of Directors. Additionally, GM will appoint a member to the Cunningham Board. The C7 concept car was unveiled to the public in January 2001 at the North American International Auto show in Detroit.<P>?Cunningham Motor Company is pleased and gratified to have GM as an investor in the company?s efforts to develop the first true American grand touring car since Briggs Swift Cunningham last did so in 1953,? said Jack McCormack CMC president and chief executive officer. <P>As a virtual car company, Cunningham?s business plan calls for outside suppliers to be responsible for the design, engineering, and production of its vehicles. Roush Industries of Livonia, Mich. has been selected to develop and integrate the C7. Cunningham intends to build and sell about 600 C7 Grand Touring cars per year with a sticker price of $250,000. General Motors (NYSE: GM), the world?s largest vehicle manufacturer, designs, builds and markets cars and trucks worldwide. In 2000, GM earned $5 billion on sales of $183.3 billion, excluding special items. It employs about 363,000 people globally. More information on General Motors can be found at <A HREF="http://www.gm.com." TARGET=_blank>www.gm.com.</A>

[Guest]

<span style="font-style: italic">"The Bengal, inspired by golfer and Buick spokesman Tiger Woods, was the latest in a number of concept vehicles from Buick that were trotted out as part of GM's plans to turn around the struggling brand."</span><P>It looked like a driver. (the golf club.)<P>Maybe they never should have turned it the way it was going in the first place. As soon as they started to standardize the looks on all their cars (like most other companies did in the 90's), they lost their unique (well, somewhat shared with Olds) qualities.<P>Personally, I'm glad they trashed the Bengal. I would be happy to own pretty much any Buick that has ever been produced, but the Bengal was just ugly. Yes, it was different, and yes, it had clean lines and may have been a nice car, but it just wasn't Buick-y enough. It seemed like it was trying too hard to look European. Buick is an American company, and needs to make American cars with American styling. I want there to be a Buick that I can buy when my Park Avenue gives out, and unless they turn toward something that says "I'm a Buick" all over (and not just the grille), I'm going to have to keep buying old cars. And that will be mighty tough in 40 years when I'm 60 and actually fit into the Buick crowd.

[Guest]

Personally I liked the Lacrose concept car much better than the Bengal. Sort of looked like a Camaro on steriods with some Buick Styling. I liked the hood that opened sideways and the fact that you could set it up to fit a sheet of plywood or to seat four adults in comfort... Try that in your SUV ( Stupid Ugly Vehicle ). This to me was a vehicle I would be interested in purchasing, it had utility, luxury, and a sporty look and hopefully they would put some of that famous Buick torque behind it.<BR>( When better cars are made BUICK will build them ) and please put vent ports on the side.

[Guest]

My view is that it's a mistake not to build that ragtop. Just take out the funky door. We have needed a 4 seat convertible for a very long time...........These guys just don't care. Look what they did with Olds.....They alienated all there customers, tried to jam a bucket seat/floorshift car down there throat. I work for a Buick dealer, been there long time, no appealing product to sell.Parkavenue goin away, no entry level car to sell. No whitewall tires on 2001 up vehicles. They need folks who pound the pavement, and hear the customers. They are so out of touch...........<BR>But for the live of me, they will give Bob Lutz 2 Million dollrs for a exclusive low volume car the Cunningham.They really have there priorities screwed up, and the dealer body, Customers and shareholders should revolt on these guys......I just don't understand it.....

[BUICK RACER]

<B>They really have their priorities screwed up</B><BR>Yep, when some employee friends of mine have to get a director to sign to buy a box of printer paper....<BR>Many car plants will be shut down for the first few weeks of the new year, and then the big retirement incentives will be pushed on alot of salary employees, it's going to be an interesting year, that's for sure!<BR>RV

[Guest Skyking]

LASERBEAMS, I couldn't agree with you more. We sure think alike on this issue. Lately, it is ONLY the grille that says Buick. These designers today should hang their heads in shame. My daily drivers are well over 100,000 miles and I can't get myself to look at new cars. When they quit, I'll buy old............

[Guest COMPACTBC]

When I went to the Orange County Auto Show this year I was pleasently surprised at the Buick part of the show, which featured the Buick Cielo. This display had by far the largest crowd of any other concept car at the show. This is one beautiful car and it does say "BUICK". Time will tell if the "Bean Counters" will actually let this car be produced. In the mean time I am now spending my kids inheritance rebuilding the engine and getting a new paint job on my 1964 Riviera, one of the great cars Buick used to make! <P>[ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: COMPACTBC ]<p>[ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: COMPACTBC ]