Bill Boudway Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 We need info on foundries that will be willing to cast small quantities of parts in ductile iron. Prefer locations in western NY state.Thanks in advance for your help.Bill Boudway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J.Heizmann Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Hi, Bill...nice to hear from you.I'll do my best in assisting. Helped out quite a few AACA folks with castings with 1, or, 2 not so successful attempts.Post a description of what you need re-produced, are any existing parts available to utilize as a pattern, metallurgical requirements (depending on the function of the casting, are any old/broken parts available for a destructive chemistry test to check attributes?).Also, post quantities required of each so I can start the logistical process.Regards, Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Indiana_Truck Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Peter,Just to get some idea since you have dealt with it before, what kind of parts were you getting done and how much did it run to do it? I bet most of us are looking for something that will need to be cast at some point but like in my case there wont be a large number of any one part needed. I have a need for an intake/exhaust manifold for my 1920's Hercules in my Indiana and a bellhousing. I have the parts but both are broken with pieces missing and are very heavy. Can something like this be done without spending more than I already have in the truck? Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J.Heizmann Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Hi, Bob...To date, my cases have been "tweaking". In other words, my foundries are considered "short-to-high volume" industrial castings. By tweaking, I have had the pattern shop folks take a casting, repair it, and, use it for a single mold.We are not set up to take on "one piece" jobs. Now...In answer to your question, I offer a case experience I had back in the '70's:A gentleman representing his "Cord" (sp) club showed up in the lobby out of the clear blue. Secretary called me to see if I could help him. Very nice man. He was holding an exhaust manifold for a Cord and explained that he and his club member's are in dire need for replacements.Told him the pattern equipment (pattern and corebox) would be about $1500. I knew this would shock him, so, I suggested that he create sort of a "co-op". In other words, recruit, or, seek out other Cord owners who would be interested in investing, say, $50 to become an owner of the pattern equipment. He left.It was quite some time later (over a year if I recall), when, the man showed up. Now I was shocked. He had a check and placed the order for the pattern equipment. He had about 20-25 investors signed up:--$1500 divided by 25 = $60 per member owner.--Casting piece price: $9.00 and change back in the '70's.(Side recollection: The gent in the Cord club sent a letter to me that they went on to further prosperity by selling the remaining parts originally ordered for a fair profit that further reduced the "co-op" original pattern investment.)Today:--Pattern "estimate" for an Exhaust Manifold: $3-4500 for cheap and dirty urethane impressions. Tool steel impressions normally used for, say, a Mack Truck manifold that we produce: $8-9000. What I am sayin here, is the individual casting and customer needs are on a case-by-case scenario.(Remember, this is a raw casting. Does not include any machining of bolt holes, tapping of threads, or, milling gasket flanges.)NOTE: We are talking about Ferrous Castings here. The same thought pattern I have could be accomplished with plastic knobs, brass/bronze pieces, or, anything, of which there is a high profile requirement of car owners/restorers.In summation, let me know what you need, as posted in my response to Bill, and, I will do my darn best to help at my place, or, advise where you can get the part without taking out a mortgage.I made a few posts over the years concerning this very same subject. As our iron (cars) gets older, it is without doubt, going to be a progressive problem for many vehicles, with emphasis on intake and exhaust manifolds being the high profile parts of subject.Recently, nearchocolatetown, some folks at the museum, and, I discussed a casting case. This brings to light that there are some Amish folks who cast the single casting requirements. Don't know if that is where the Museum folks went, however, there are many resources with varying costs.Became a little windy here, but, just want to open some dialogue to face a problem that will fester with age in some cars of our current interest. Regards, Peter J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 A comment from someone who had NO idea what he was doing......I use a machinist to do bits and pieces that always need doing on old cars. I was talking to him about getting a small piece cut on a lathe when he suggested some members of his machine club that were SERIOUSLY into casting.To make the story short, I got with them and had some pieces both alarge and small made basically for lunch and beers. One weekend while I was there they were casting a G scale Locomotive Body that was probably 4 foot long and the diameter of a bucket. Amazing work and if I needed a manifold for my straight 8, I would to these guys.So you may want to check a group out like this in your neck of the woods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J.Heizmann Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Bill..thanks for a "great case example" to jog creativity.Regards, Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 We have bronze, aluminum and grey iron (not ductile) done on a regular basis by an Amish Foundry. Very inexpensive but for something like a manifold you need very expensive core patterns as stated above. We cast such things as convertible top irons, taillight stands, body hardware, basically anything that can be sand cast from an original piece. Recently made a pattern and had a complete firewall/cowl cast in aluminum for a "flight of fantasy" early speedster project. On the other end of the spectrum we also did a "Eureka" script for the fender of a 1958 Cadillac funeral vehicle we're restoring. Glad to help if I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley735 Posted December 25, 2003 Share Posted December 25, 2003 I have dealt with them in the past. Cattail Foundry at Gordonsville, PA. They will make parts for steam traction engines, but are a little funny about automobile parts. They do their best to discourage it unless they know you.Jim Showers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J.Heizmann Posted December 25, 2003 Share Posted December 25, 2003 Hi, Jim...Cattail Foundry (to fill you folks in, who may be wondering about their name, they are located and take their name from their location: "Cattail Road") cater to the specialized, short run, one'sy-two'sy pieces.As I mentioned in my post above, and to elaborate a little further, to use an existing "solid" part to be used as a pattern is a minor case for the most part.If the piece is a "hollow, serpentine piece" like a manifold, then, one is talking about "2 different processes" to recreate a piece:1. Pattern creates the impression of the O.D. of the desired configuration in the molding sand...2. Core creates the I.D. configuration if it is a hollow piece, as a manifold.3. What we have are 2 processes for the hollow part, so the hollow part is going to cost much more, labor intensive in that the core must be made first, then, the cost of the mold...both cost driven by how many pieces will be made. The more ordered, the lower cost.We also have 2 separate tooling costs: The pattern and the corebox.There are various tooling materials that can be used to drive down the pattern and corebox cost (tool steel for volume parts, urethane for volume-to-medium parts, wood for very short run parts. The problem with wood, is, you must go to a "short run foundry" such as Cattail Foundry. Therein lies the problem...there are very few short run foundries around anymore who specialize like this. They also know they are in the driver's seat, thus, it comes down to how desperate are you for the part, and, how much are you willing to pay?Gets back to my original note above...the more investors in "High Wear" parts you can recruit to pay for the initial tooling, the less the monetary bite.Regards, Peter J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted December 25, 2003 Share Posted December 25, 2003 I have an excellent relationship with Cattail and I find their prices to be very reasonable. Maybe it's because I have a beard? What they recognize instantly is if someone is trying to take advantage of them or doesn't care to understand their religion/lifestyle. Yes, they specialize in short run items but don't underrate them. I've seen very complex tractor manifolds and such come out of there and they've done things for us that "production" foundries told us couldn't be done without expensive patterns. Recently had Packard rumble seat hinges made for a fellow in North Carolina, as well as 20 sets of shutter hinges for an historic house he was restoring. You are correct though, they can be a bit standoffish to anyone new and they won't be rushed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted December 25, 2003 Share Posted December 25, 2003 Restorer, Are they Amish? I know the Amish can do most anything imaginable. Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted December 25, 2003 Share Posted December 25, 2003 They are Old Order Amish, no electricity or phone service whatsoever on the farm. They operate a very professional foundry operation with all equipment run by compressed air or hydraulic power supplied from a diesel fired power unit out back. I've been dealing with them long enough to have been invited to dinner, quite a fun evening. Of course they farm in addition to the foundry but they have quite an operation, and no computers. They specialize in parts, some large and complex, for antique steam engines, including fire box parts, gears, etc. but also do valve bodies, lamp posts and parts, almost anything really. Unlike the large commercial foundries, where each worker is trained to perform one or two specific tasks, they have the skill to prepare a mold from an original part, not a simple operation sometimes. I'll be visiting them next week in fact to pick up some Packard parts they made in silicon bronze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J.Heizmann Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 Bill...We are talking Ductile here, and, not just grey cast iron. A note of caution: We have over $1.8-M invested in spectrometers alone just to assure proper ductile iron. Curious how Cattail, and, other small shops can guarantee the proper microstructure of "true" ductile without electricity to operate sophisticated test mechanisms, or, even have such equipment. We have a system where every ladle is coded, tested to assure proper nodularity and chemistry. The ladle gets pigged if not to spec, or, the metallurgist gives it his blessing to pour the mold.My note hear was generated by a phone call I received last week from one of our larger accounts. They asked a favor of me to test some so-called ductile iron pump parts, of which, they buy from a China foundry. The customer had them tested at a local lab, and, it came back as Compactive Graphite, which, is an iron in-between grey and ductile. We tested it and said basically, both the China foundry and the local lab are either liars, or, worse. The parts were Grey Cast Iron being passed off as Ductile. A major recall of the pumps is forthcoming...Just be careful if they say it is ductile on a critical part...you may find out the hard way if it is not true ductile. Regards, Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 Restorer, I've had a little experience with the Amish. I'll relate it in another thread sometime in the future. Thanks, Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 Cattail is careful to point out that they pour grey iron, not ductile. Grey iron is ok for non critical parts but obviously not appropriate for safety related items. Early cars used quite a bit of grey iron, silicon bronze is tough stuff and is appropriate for items originally made in diecast. Each foundry and each material has it's appropriate uses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Boudway Posted January 8, 2004 Author Share Posted January 8, 2004 Hi,Thanks for all the input here.I'll update the post to let you all know how we make out with this.Bill Boudway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_oldmitchell Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 PeterI have a question about casting that has bothered me for quite awhile. I see people casting front axle spindles, shackles, and even axles all the time. I am not an engineer, but it makes me nervous. Am I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J.Heizmann Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Hi, Terry...hope all is well.I tend to be nervous, too, depending on the car's weight. It is a mixed bag opinion I have. Many of these parts in later years are "forgings". Some early parts are sand cast. In all honesty, I would have to do a destructive test to see what each particular part was originally made of, however, in general: Shackles: I really do not see a problem with a higher strenth ductile, such as, 80-55-06 (80 meaning tensile strength, 55 meaning yield, and, 06 meaning elongation).A question I have always been, maybe perplexed is the word, concerns the Cub Cadet Lawn Tractor ads, of which, all of have been drowning in on TV. They tout "cast iron" front axles. I have resorted to believing the Advertising Firm may have categorized all cast parts to include every material. One thing for sure, if they are Class 30 (the most popular cast iron) I would feel uneasy.Class 30 (30,000 p.s.i. VS. the above Ductile examples of 80,000 and 100,000 p.s.i) really confuses me with the Cub Cadet ad.Terry, compressive loads come into play, too. A shackle is a tightened load and a spindle will see more harsh vibrations, and, so on. I really do not know without getting involved with a particular part and seeing just what we have... Regards, Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_oldmitchell Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 I think I was a little unclear in my last post. In the brass car area of our hobby there are quite a few people that are casting axles, spindles, shackles, steering gears and other high stress parts from iron. I am more than a little worried about this. I am no engineer but I know several. In my discussions with them about this subject they talk about fatique cycles and life and tensile as oppossed to compressive strength/forces. They generally express the same reservations I have but the bottom line is that none of us are that knowledgeable about the specifics of casting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J.Heizmann Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Terry, I remain concerned as well.Cast iron can and will work for very short periods and very long "lucky" periods. Of course all depending on the atmosphere of which it is subjected. (Stresses, load, vibration, and so on...)Bottom line, Terry, I personally will perform a chemical analysis of a part that someone wants me to help them out...back in the Brass Era I doubt there are advertised compositions of any one part as much as today. Looking back at that indepth study I performed on "bolts", that told me a lot. The early '20's bolt compared to what is available today. In my 32 years in this business, I have been amazed at how some people will actually have a steel forging and call it a casting, simply because it looks like a casting. Goes without saying, it is one hell of a gamble if someone takes a casting looking part and tells someone to simply cast it in iron without knowing stresses, temperature (ductile can become fairly brittle in sub-zero temperatures as they have found out with the Titanic's skin plate actually cracking in the frigid waters.)I am extending an offer to you...should you have a wornout piece, broken, or, literally useless part, you could send it to me, and, I will do a destructive test and tell you exactly what it's replacement should be made of. Just let me know, Terry...the door is open. Maybe a popular replacement part within your area of the hobby, of which, you have safety concerns.Again, without seeing and testing any one piece, I can not offer much help.Best regards, Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J.Heizmann Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Folks, I am posting some basic guidelines, of which, you could use when requesting a caster to reproduce parts for you. As Terry (oldmitchell) brought up his concerns for people using grey iron in critical casting applications, I totally agree with him. If you are not certain, always go with a higher strenth ductile for peace of mind.________________________________________________________________________________Summary of Grey Iron CastingsGrade/Minimum Tensile Strength (p.s.i.)/Brinnel Hardness/Typical Applications.________________________________________________________________________________Cl. 25/ 25.000/ 170-229 Small cylinder blocks and heads, pistons clutch plates, pump bodies, gear boxes, light duty brake drums, small or thin section castings requiring good appearance/high machinablity/close dimensions.Cl. 25A/ 25,000/ 170-229 Note: Total Carbon 3.50 Minimum is mandatory. Brake Drums and Clutch Plates to minimize heat checking.Cl. 30/ 30,000/ 187-241 Cylinder blocks, heads, liners, flywheels, pistons, minimum duty brake drums and clutch plates.Cl. 35/ 35,000/ 207-255 Truck cylinder blocks and heads, heavy flywheels and transmission cases, differential carriers.________________________________________________________________________________Summary of Ductile (Nodular) Iron Castings 60-40-18/ 60,000/ 170 Max. Steering knuckles and related components such as pump bodies and valves. NOTE: 60-40-18 is an annealed 65-45-12 ductile.65-45-12/ 65,000/ 156-217 Note: The most common grade. "Castings subject to shock and fatique loading", disc brake calipres.80-55-06/ 80,000/ 187-255 NOTE: Suitable for flame or induction hardening (i.e...gear teeth on O.D.) Crankshafts, gears, rollers.100-70-03/ 100,000/ 241-302 Note: It us usually normalized. High strength gears, automotive applications.________________________________________________________________________________Hope this helps to some degree. Again, I offer some basic guidelines you could utilize when talking to a foundry.Regards, Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6219_Rules Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Peter, I would just like to thank you for sharing with all of us your knowledge and experience in the matter of castings and metalurgy in general. Such knowledge is gained through long hard work, experience and dedication, something no one should take lightly. I just wanted you to know how much I appreciate your willingness to share this with us all. It is your kind of spirit that makes the Forum such an invaluable tool, and wonder place to go for friendship and comaraderie (sp?). <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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