Stude Overheating/Timing Too Advanced?

[Kfigel]

Adjusted the timing on my '22 Big Six before starting it up this spring, and now the car is overheating.  Am wondering if I have the timing advanced too much.  This is where I have the timing set as per photos...Flywheel pointer at "AD-SP" mark as per service manual directions; spark lever in fully advanced position, and dist cam rotated so rotor segment is pointing at No. 1 spark plug in distributor (white mark on side of dist housing).  Cam not quite at peak and points measure 0.015".  (Service manual says points should be just opening-is 0.015" at this point too much?). Wanted to make sure the timing was correct before I start looking at other causes of overheating.  Thanks

Edited June 5 by Kfigel (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

Throw a timing light on it while running and you’ll know right where it is. Too advanced causes predetonation but too far retarded may cause overheating. I expect your overheating issue may lie somewhere else though.

[Axial_Flow]

How badly is the engine overheating?  In the one picture, you have a temperature gauge?  What is the reading and where did you install the sending unit or sensor bulb?

[Peter R.]

Did it start overheating right after you adjusted timing or had been done more to the car? I remember about 15 years ago we had a 1920‘s Studebaker in the shop (think it was a 27 EW Commander Big Six), with an overheating issue. To make a long story short, at the end we noticed that someone installed a wrong head gasket. Late teens to 1920’s Studebaker head gasket all look very similar but coolant passage hole patterns etc. are different, which restricted the coolant flow to the head in our case. As a result the engine overheated. Just something to take into consideration.

[nvonada]

Keep in mind the gas the service manual was written for is not the gas we run today.  Octane ratings were first developed in the mid 1920s and were in the low 60s back then.   If you are running 89-91 octane you may need to run more advanced than "book".  My car seems to really like an extra 3 degrees or so.  

 

Here is some actual data.  It is interesting that octane and compression ratio increased in lockstep until the late 1980s.  I bet that is when knock sensors went mainsteam.  

Fact #940: August 29, 2016 Diverging Trends of Engine Compression Ratio and Gasoline Octane Rating | Department of Energy

Edited June 7 by nvonada (see edit history)

[Kfigel]

On 6/6/2024 at 8:40 AM, Axial_Flow said:

How badly is the engine overheating?  In the one picture, you have a temperature gauge?  What is the reading and where did you install the sending unit or sensor bulb?

The temp got up to between 230-235 deg, so the 50/50 coolant I have in the car boiled during the overheating (believe it boils at about 223 deg). The sensor is in the middle of the upper radiator hose.  Do have a small coolant leak from the front of the engine that I have to look at closer.  Refilled the radiator with 1-1/2 gal of water and ran the car this morning for about a mile with timing fully advanced and temp only got up to ~139 deg.  Will take it on a longer run this weekend.  Thanks 

[Kfigel]

On 6/5/2024 at 9:54 PM, Stude Light said:

Throw a timing light on it while running and you’ll know right where it is. Too advanced causes predetonation but too far retarded may cause overheating. I expect your overheating issue may lie somewhere else though.

Will do.  I'll start looking at other overheating possibilities; give me something to do this weekend.  Thanks

[Kfigel]

On 6/6/2024 at 7:40 PM, Peter R. said:

Did it start overheating right after you adjusted timing or had been done more to the car? I remember about 15 years ago we had a 1920‘s Studebaker in the shop (think it was a 27 EW Commander Big Six), with an overheating issue. To make a long story short, at the end we noticed that someone installed a wrong head gasket. Late teens to 1920’s Studebaker head gasket all look very similar but coolant passage hole patterns etc. are different, which restricted the coolant flow to the head in our case. As a result the engine overheated. Just something to take into consideration.

Actually I had replaced the head gasket just before I adjusted the timing.  I didn't run the car in between; should have - one step at a time.  This was my first thought; did I cover over some coolant passage holes?  The new gasket I installed was No. 190 as called out in your chart.  I triple checked myself during installation that no holes were covered over, so I believe my head gasket work isn't the culprit.  Thanks for the Victor chart.  

[Kfigel]

4 hours ago, nvonada said:

Keep in mind the gas the service manual was written for is not the gas we run today.  Octane ratings were first developed in the mid 1920s and were in the low 60s back then.   If you are running 89-91 octane you may need to run more advanced than "book".  My car seems to really like an extra 3 degrees or so.  

 

Here is some actual data.  It is interesting that octane and compression ratio increased in lockstep until the late 1980s.  I bet that is when knock sensors went mainsteam.  

Fact #940: August 29, 2016 Diverging Trends of Engine Compression Ratio and Gasoline Octane Rating | Department of Energy

Interesting, and thanks.  Certainly will look at running on the "advanced" side to avoid excess engine heat and due to the higher octane of today.  I only use regular gas.  

[ddavis]

Have you had any success with your overheating? I am also chasing this issue and the timing is about the only thing left to chase.

Please keep us posted.

[Stude Light]

I've posted this a few times in different areas of this forum. 

Lets discuss three types of coolant - Evans Waterless, Ethylene Glycol, Water.

 

Evans has a really poor heat transfer coefficient- like 0.68

50/50 glycol/water of mix has a heat transfer coefficient of about 0.8

Pure water has a heat transfer coefficient of 1.00

Water is also the least viscous of the three which will also improves flowrate (hence cooling)

 

What does this mean? If you switch to pure water from a glycol mix, you immediately gain 20% more cooling capacity. From Evans, its a whopping 32% improvement.

 

In a cooling system with a lot of reserve capacity, Evans or a glycol mix coolant may run just slightly hotter vs pure water, although the temperature of the internals (like cylinder walls) will always run hotter. In a cooling system designed to just get the job done…like the ones in our cars that had to balance weight, space and cost factors as part of the automobile design AND in a system that is compromised from like 100 years of use, a glycol mix and, even more so, Evans, will run significantly hotter.

 

Boiling point of Evans - 375 deg F

Boiling point of 50/50 glycol/water - 225 deg F

Boiling point of water - 212 deg F

 

While Evans may never “boil over” your engine run internals can run to extreme temperatures, well above the degradation point of oil, and you may never know. With either Evans or 50/50 glycol water, your engine internals will always run hotter than when using pure water (up until boiling is reached) due to the reduced ability to transfer heat from those parts to the coolant.

 

I have found the benefit in improved heat transfer coefficient outweighs the reduction in boiling point when running water vs 50/50 glycol. That is to say, I have solved overheating issues by switching to water only.

 

I run pure water and No-Rosion in my early cars to get the absolute best cooling system performance with corrosion protection but they have no freeze protection (stored in heated garage in winter). In my cars requiring some freeze protection I usually run 25% glycol which gets me down to 15 deg F and very little loss in heat transfer coefficient (cars used up until snow flies). If it is a car that is going to be outside during a Michigan winter then I go with 50% glycol and I give up 20% of my heat transfer coefficient.

 

While Evans gives you good corrosion protection and boil over protection I will never use it as a coolant in a car due to its poor heat transfer properties and significantly higher engine operating temperatures (I’m talking internals, not just what the coolant itself runs at). If I need freeze protection, I go with the least amount of ethylene glycol as possible. I had an old Allis Chalmers tractor that would overheat on 50/50 glycol (used lots of engine power to drive a mower deck) but had no issues using water but it was stored in an uninsulated barn in the winter so I would swap coolants between seasons.

 

Also keep in mind that these early cars used open systems. Both Evans and glycol like closed systems to reduce oxidation of the fluid. The last thing I'll mention is that if you happen to boil out a little water (typically after a drive when you stop), water doesn't mess up your paint and costs little to replace. It was pretty typical for early cars to evaporate or even boil out a little water after a hot drive and folks would just top them off occasionally.....very typical on my 1923 Light Six which has a pretty pristine cooling system.

 

It's simple to try out using straight water and see how your car does. If you do decided to keep water in it, it is important to use a good corrosion inhibitor, like No-Rosion.

Good luck,

Scott

 

[Kfigel]

Thanks for the info, Scott.  I solved my overheating problem by finally discovering that my small coolant leak referenced above was actually large enough to drain down my system and cause the overheating.  It was leaking through bad packing in my water pump (covered in a different post by me).  Replaced the packing and refilled the system with water as per your suggestion and will be cleaning the system with Permatex HD Radiator Cleaner.  After that, water with a corrosion inhibitor will go in (except during our Buffalo wintertime).  

[Grimy]

33 minutes ago, Kfigel said:

Thanks for the info, Scott.  I solved my overheating problem by finally discovering that my small coolant leak referenced above was actually large enough to drain down my system and cause the overheating.  It was leaking through bad packing in my water pump (covered in a different post by me).  Replaced the packing and refilled the system with water as per your suggestion and will be cleaning the system with Permatex HD Radiator Cleaner.  After that, water with a corrosion inhibitor will go in (except during our Buffalo wintertime).  

PLEASE use a coolant filter in top hose/top tank to catch all the rust, crud and corrosion that the cleaner will dislodge--lest it be redeposited in your radiator core.

 

I use a stocking filter (search this site for multiple accounts).  After you have flushed and flushed and flushed some more, use a fresh stocking filter as the original one will have been compromised by the chemicals and won't last.

[Kfigel]

1 hour ago, Grimy said:

PLEASE use a coolant filter in top hose/top tank to catch all the rust, crud and corrosion that the cleaner will dislodge--lest it be redeposited in your radiator core.

 

I use a stocking filter (search this site for multiple accounts).  After you have flushed and flushed and flushed some more, use a fresh stocking filter as the original one will have been compromised by the chemicals and won't last.

Thanks, will do.