early 1900s car restoration attempt

[AHa]

Greetings,

Some years back, I attempted to restore an early 1900s car made by a blacksmith not too far from my home. I essentially tried to reverse engineer it but not being an engineer, I made a few critical errors and now wonder if I could get some advice on my errors. I created a website about the process, found at 1900car.weebly.com. The two questions I'd like to address concern the steering. There was a mounting provision on the frame for a steering column. It would accommodate a piece of 3/8ths pipe and this left me with a 5/16ths rod to transfer the action of the wheel to the arm below but I used plain cold rolled steel and it twists in the column, failing to transfer any (or very little) motion to the wheels. I could step up to the next higher metric size rod and possibly ream out the 3/8ths pipe but I need a rod that won't twist. Ideas?

 

The next question concerns the wheels. Again, by reverse engineering, and asking a lot of questions of experts, I decided the original wheels were 1900 racing bicycle wheels, which took a 30" tire. There were no 30" bicycle tires available when I started this project so I used 30" T model rims and spoked them up to early 1900 bicycle hubs but the 30x3 tires are too large for the car. I might could get away with them but it compounds my steering column problem. Ideas?

 

See my website for details. Click on the restoration page to see my progress.

Edited March 4 by AHa (see edit history)

[Mark Shaw]

I suggest you use a steering tube from another brass era car.  Except for Model Ts, most cars used a large steel tube with a smaller tube and a rod inside to work the spark & throttle.  The larger outside tube was usually brass sleeved and operated the steering.  You can't go wrong using original steering parts made for the job.  You may have to change your wheels an inch or two smaller to accept currently available tires.  Good luck,

Edited March 4 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[human-potato_hybrid]

Hyperlink: 1900car.weebly.com

[AHa]

If you think about it, most modern cars use a 3/4 to 1" shaft to turn the front wheels, so, 5/16s would seem to be enough to turn the front wheels of a buggy. I talked with the guy at my  local Alro Metals and he suggested I use 4140 to make the shaft. The other choice would be tool steel. Tool steel might be more rigid but is also more brittle. Does anybody know what material steering shafts are made from? The other idea is to ream out the 3/8ths pipe to accept 3/8ths round stock, then make a new shaft out of 3/8ths 4140. I have used 4144.

 

On the wheels, just a couple of years ago, 30" tires and wheels became available again for beach cruiser type bikes. I'm sure I'd have to get another set of spokes made to fit my hubs and hopefully my spoke guy is still around. I hate the idea of redoing all this but it would get me back on track.

[classiclines]

Pictures help spark interest...

 

[human-potato_hybrid]

4 hours ago, AHa said:

The other choice would be tool steel.

To me, tool steel sounds way overkill. Here’s a steering shaft out of a 51 Plymouth. 7/8” tube. I’m sure it’s just mild steel. Unless the steering ratio in your car is incredibly ungenerous it’s hard to imagine that say a 5/16 solid rod would not work. Even considering 5/16 tube, that would be around 40% the twisting strength of 7/8, but how much weight do you even have on the front wheels? And are you steering when moving, or still? Any non power steering car will not really steer at a standstill. Heck even a ride on mower is difficult or impossible to steer…

Edited March 5 by human-potato_hybrid (see edit history)

[AHa]

The steering is direct. Are you saying I’m trying to fix a problem that doesn’t exist?

[Oldtech]

I'm with mark shaw, Use a model T or whatever steering shaft / pipe , Rods twist too easy. It may require a bit of redesign but worth it.

[AHa]

OK, are we saying that a tube has less flex than a rod? I was thinking that both my 1911 and 1915 car uses a tube.

 

I've already made too many changes for my taste. At some point you're not restoring/recreating but making. My experts all told me I needed at least five hp for a motor but now I realize the car was geared down twice, once at the trans to jackshaft connection and then at the jackshaft to wheel location. Notice the large gear on the jackshaft and again the large gear on the wheel.

Edited March 5 by AHa (see edit history)

[Mark Shaw]

1 hour ago, AHa said:

I've already made too many changes for my taste.

• IMO, only museums with static displays and people who restore vehicles to satisfy car show judges hold to 100% original parts or perfect reproductions. 
• You evidently want to be able to drive this car and because it is so rare, nobody is still alive to say it isn't original.

I suggest you get it to work with a few upgrades and enjoy the car and continue to make it "more to your taste" later.

[human-potato_hybrid]

16 hours ago, AHa said:

The steering is direct. Are you saying I’m trying to fix a problem that doesn’t exist?

I’m not sure I’m understanding your issue then. Can you post some photos of where the new steering shaft needs to go along with the steering linkage? I have next to no direct expertise in cars this old/primitive. 

[Mark Shaw]

This is the most simple steering method I could find that is most likely to be like yours.  Note the steering column is heavy wall tubing.  

 

 

[AHa]

I wanted to say thanks to all the generous souls who attempted to help me with this dilemma. I went back and took some measurements today and the 1/4" pipe has an id of .312 while 3/8ths rod measures .375. I believe I can open up the pipe enough to accommodate 3/8ths rod without compromising wall strength. Still, as some have suggested, it might be unnecessary. The 5/16ths may be plenty with tires on the rims and the car under motion.

 

I don't understand however, why so many applications use tube instead of rod for this application. From the information I have gleaned, the strength of tube is diminished by the hole size proportionally.

 

I guess I'm too much of a purist; if the car cannot be replicated very close to original, why bother. I'm pretty sure this is the hardest project I have ever tackled.

[John Kelso]

I have restored two, one off pre 1900 cars. In both cases there were reasons they were one of one.  Not to dismiss creative people but you have

to think back 125 years. For me I knew neither car would ever be a tour car unless I made some drastic changes. Making those changes for me was not restoring, it would have been re engineering. If you want a road car get something proven like a model T

[human-potato_hybrid]

13 hours ago, AHa said:

I don't understand however, why so many applications use tube instead of rod for this application. From the information I have gleaned, the strength of tube is diminished by the hole size proportionally.

Same reason people use I-beams or square tube for bending loads instead of solid square stock...

 

It's not diminished proportional to area. The material near the outside can take much more force than near the center of the rod.

[ABear]

AHa, What a cool project! Reminds me of my early 1900's car which has been owned by my family since 1903 that I now own. Except my car was "all there" and "in one piece" but in need of major TLC to get it to a running state. Even your home built radiator could be a twin to mine which I had to hand build from scratch since I could not get any response from custom tubing manufacturers to even get a quote.

 

Your project prompted me to sign up to post (been reading this forum for at least 10 yrs now).

 

I suspect the steering mount opening may have been for some sort of bearing interface and not meant for a full length rod to go through and transfer the steering motion below that mount. 3/8" is just way to small for any substantial length without twisting. In other words may not have been an outer non moving tube. But without some good pictures of the mount there is no way for me or anyone else to be able to determine how it may have been used.

 

On my car, the steering uses substantial heavy material, I measured 7/8" outside diameter, from what I can tell, it is a solid piece, not a hollow tube. I do suspect some of that comes from the fact my car even though a two seater, tips the scales around 1900-2000 lbs and with that weight, you really need to have very well constructed parts.

 

As far as the question of why tubing is often used, I am not an engineer, but I suspect often it comes down to weight. Tubing as long as the diameter is large enough and the wall is thick enough can be substituted in over heavier solid rod. Of course the tubing would have to be a bit bigger than the the rod it replaced..

 

I am also majorly impressed with your engine build!

 

I am attaching a few photos on my radiator, first one is the old one, next one is my completed new radiator..

 

Looking forward to seeing more of your project!

 

[AHa]

ABear,

Thank you for all your kind words. Please don't be overly impressed with my motor. Several people told me I couldn't build a motor but it's amazing what you can do when you don't know what you can't. I scaled the steering off the picture. There is a cross member on the frame with a hole in it that would only accept a piece of 3/8ths pipe. I will try to post a picture tomorrow. The picture of the car shows a very small steering shaft. The 3/8ths looks to be the right size. In fact, if you go on the restoration page and compare the original picture and the one of my restoration, you will see they are the same.

 

Could you post a picture of your motor? I'd like to compare. Is yours upright or horizontal. Do you know the make?

[AHa]

notice the size of the steering shaft

 

I believe the second rod to be a throttle.

Edited March 9 by AHa (see edit history)

[mechanician]

Torsion strength of a rod goes as the radius cubed, so doubling the radius would provide an 8x increase in torque capacity, all else equal.  Twist of the rod is determined by its elastic modulus.  Tool steel and plain carbon have virtually the same modulus, so no difference in twist for a given torque load, although the tool steel will have higher strength, so it will twist further (at a higher torque) before it breaks...

 

Pipe of any type (ie. for fluid) seems to be a non-ideal material for this application.  Presumably there is an arm or pinion on the end of the shaft which should be keyed on, or possibly pinned. 3/8 or 5/16 just doesn't leave much to accomplish this even if the rod can carry sufficient torque.  Are you sure that the whole column didn't turn?

 

Either way, it can be made to work as well as it ever did, which is to ask if you know if it ever really ran well.  Many early blacksmith made vehicles didn't work out so well, and in that case static display would be period correct functionality.  Either way, that is part of the story of the early days, sometimes it just didn't work, and from a historical perspective that too can be worth preserving.

[AHa]

There is the anecdotal story of the blacksmith throwing his girlfriend out of the car as they went over a bump and the recoil of the spring sent her sailing. Really, the only thing I started with was the frame and a picture of the car and a firm conviction the car should be brought back to life if at all possible. Most of the family had passed on before I learned of the car's existence. This is an example of reverse engineering.

[ABear]

AHa,

 

I will have to dig through my pictures archive for better photos but here are several that I took when I got the car from my Dad and I was trying to start it and discovered that the engine had seized..

 

Ist pix is crankcase, timing gear is under the cover, output shaft to the left is a small gear type water pump, the shaft to the right drives the exhaust cam and breaker points.

 

2nd pix is cylinder, atmospheric intake valve on top of cylinder, right is the carb

 

3rd pix is output shaft and hand crank, not seen is the open planetary gear transmission behind the hand crank.

 

4th pix is output shaft end and view of the the open flywheel at least 2 ft diameter.

 

No makers marks anywhere on the engine (not unusual back in those days), engine doesn't belong in this car but was retrofitted into the car by my Great Grandad and Grandad (very, very long story). I don't want to derail your thread. Have stumped a lot of people as the maker..

 

My Dad guessed that the engine produces about 7 HP, I suspect more like 6 HP.

 

Bore is 5.5" with 6" stroke.

 

Head is a wedge shape (had to remove the head to replace head gasket which was seeping water into the cylinder).

 

I looked at your photo, not much detail to go on with your steering shaft, looks to me that there were two shafts standing proud. one shaft for steering other for spark and throttle? But that second shaft could have also been used to stabilize the steering shaft.

 

As I mentioned, 3/8" and under is not going to substantial enough for a shaft that long, it will simply twist as you have discovered.

 

Now a 3/8" or slightly less shaft for a very short distance (like 6" or so ) could have been employed to go through the mount and terminated under the mount. In a nutshell, the steering shaft could have been larger than 3/8" and the bottom end of the shaft was turned down in a lathe to fit through the frame mount.

 

As a side note, both my Great Grandad and Grandad were machinists and operated a machine shop back in those days. My Dad told me that they hand forged and machined all the parts they needed. The tiller and steering components was also moved and reworked as the flywheel would have interfered with the original location.

 

[Fordy]

And some people will look at a car with some rust issues or missing the odd part as "too hard" and walk away. I truly admire people with the determination to take on a project like this and see it all the way through.

Steve

[AHa]

Here is the bottom of the steering shaft and how I have it attached to the frame. Everything about this car is super light. Still, I can't see anybody undertaking a project such as this to end up with something unusable. My original thinking when starting this thread was that if I converted over to 30" bicycle tires, it would take less to steer. The wider the tire, the more difficult to steer. As to whether or not the car was ever practical, when I got the frame, it had been lengthened, indicating it was practical, otherwise, why modify it. I think you can see, I'm using common sense. We  are pretty far out in the country here. The frame was made out of readily accessible items. If memory serves, I cut a square hole in the pitman arm and made a square on the steering rod. The steering attachment is simply a 1/8" inch piece of steel rolled over the side rails of the frame and bolted together, each end, with the shorter piece spaced and bolted to it. The housing bolts to this cross member and the second piece has a hole in it, not drilled but punched, for the rod to pass through. Without modifying something, I see no other way to do this.

 

ABear, your car is very professionally made; what I have is very much less.

Edited March 10 by AHa (see edit history)

[ABear]

Picture didn't come through, for some reason I just get Image Preview below your text and when I click that I get a black box.

 

I understand your frustration of "why should I change things if it worked before", I get it. However, sometimes when you are handed a few bits of a car with nothing more than a very old B&W photo to go by, interpreting and adapting as best as possible is all you can do. Yes, this may mean having to toss some of your hard work aside into the scrap pile and regroup and restart and trying again with a new interpretation.

 

To illustrate the fact that 3/8" and smaller is just too small take a 3 ft piece of 3/8" rebar, put on end in a vise, the other end take some vice grips and clamp on.. Then give the vice grips some turn like you are screwing a thread.. Note the amount of twist deflection.

 

Then take 5/8 and even 3/4" rebar are repeat test.

 

Each time you will notice reduction of twist you can create.

 

You can also shorten the distance where the vice grips are put and retry the above test and once again you will notice much less twisting.

 

Keep in mind, I am not saying you are incorrect in how you think it was originally setup. It could very well have been done the way you have it and folks just lived with it as it was. Now days, we are used to steering feeling solid, back then that could have the way of life.

 

I should also mention, the steering effort when sitting still will be significantly more then when moving so it might actually work. However to me, I suspect it would be like trying to use an over cooked spaghetti noodle for a steering shaft and rather dangerous to boot.

 

Projects like these should come with warning labels that state "danger, taking on this challenge may result in losing your mind".

 

 

[ABear]

OK, I see your pix now.

 

I suspect you have it assembled incorrectly.

 

If you get rid of the nuts holding the tubing in place, then you can insert a rod of similar diameter to the tubing through the top mounting plate. The nuts you have don't belong on the car as back then hex nuts did not exist, any nuts used would have been square.

 

That rod now will be able to turn freely within the top hole.

 

The pitman arm most likely was installed between the upper and lower mounting plates.

 

The rod most likely was reduced by the blacksmith to the diameter of the hole in the bottom mounting plate.

 

The pitman arm looks like it is missing one end, very rough and incomplete compared to the end with beautiful craftsmanship eye hole. Sort of looking like it was broken and or rusted off, that may be the part you needed to go between both upper and lower mount plates. The pitman may have had a drop to it and that was cut off or broken.

 

Putting the pitman between the upper and lower mount brackets also helps to reduce or limit arm travel, too much travel and the wheels turn too sharp and they hit the side of the body. The pitman sandwiched also limits or prevents to much up and down travel of the steering rod.

 

As you mentioned, living in the middle of nowhere, they used what they had or could repurpose at that time, I suspect the frame and running gear were also repurposed after a period of time. Not unusual for folks back then to take old discarded vehicles, strip them down to the frame and reuse, repurpose the frame as a farm cart. Part of that may may have been altering the pitman into a towing connection..

 

Your issue with too much flex of the small rod inside of the tube can be easily fixed and was never assembled the way you now have it.

 

See my marked up version of your pix.

[human-potato_hybrid]

On 3/8/2024 at 9:53 PM, mechanician said:

Torsion strength of a rod goes as the radius cubed, so doubling the radius would provide an 8x increase in torque capacity, all else equal.

Worth noting that a pipe is to the fourth power; a solid rod is cubed. Since he was considering using a pipe.

 

Edit: Oops, it's still to the 3rd power.

 

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/amp/torsion-shafts-d_947.html

Edited March 10 by human-potato_hybrid (see edit history)

[mechanician]

3 minutes ago, human-potato_hybrid said:

Worth noting that a pipe is to the fourth power; a solid rod is cubed. Since he was considering using a pipe.

 

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/amp/torsion-shafts-d_947.html

Since the max torque goes as D^4\D the relationship still goes as D^3 (D being the outside diameter). A tube is never stronger than a solid shaft of the same OD and material, however a tube will  be stronger for a given weight, the strength contributions from the core being small (due to r^3 dependence). You could make a really thin wall tube that is too weak; this could also fail by buckling.

[AHa]

Using your idea, I should be able to cut the 5/16ths rod and solder short pieces inside the housing I have without starting over. How does this sound?

 

1/4" brass pipe is about 9/16 OD. This should give me plenty to turn the wheels on something so light?

Edited March 10 by AHa (see edit history)

[ABear]

Not sure I would recommend soldering of any type in this application, way to soft and tends to develop "cold solder joints" which are cracks between the solder and harder material.

 

Soldering would be acceptable for a 100% "static" display which will never ever be driven and carry a person or animal.

 

Brazing would be better but welding would be much more ideal.

 

No matter how "light" this vehicle seems, once you put a human life in it and throw any speed/movement the weakest link in the system can rear it's ugly head and that can result in you simply destroying ever bit of your hard work and or a fatality on your part.

 

If I remember correctly, many yrs ago there was a huge following of folks building Curved Dash Olds replicas. At that tire the only wheels available that looked the part was bicycle wheels.  The bicycle wheels and tires often folded up and collapsed when the drivers started making sharp turn even at low speed..

 

My greatest advice here is OVER BUILD as much as possible and yes, that may require reworking or even having to stop, reset and scrap a part.

 

My suggestion is to make the changes I indicated which means eliminating the outside tubing, using a much larger sized solid rod. Doing so, just might save your own life.

 

If you want to "dress up" the new larger steering rod for show, you could just add a fake brass sleeve over top of the solid steering rod.

 

I have a 1960s Jacobsen 8Hp lawn and garden tractor with cast iron frame, cast iron transmission and cast iron engine, weighs about 300-350 lbs with no attachments.. Top speed is 12MPH full out in third gear, It has a solid 3/4" steering wheel rod.. If they deemed 3/4" was needed, then it was needed, otherwise they wouldn't have spent the money to manufacture it that way.

 

Looked at a few Curved Dash Olds project plans online (you can search for free plans), they too used 3/4" rod for the steering.

 

I get it, you don't want to veer off from the originality.. But the reality is nearly 99% of the "originality" is already gone since all but the original frame , springs and axles are are gone and you are basically building a replica from a photo and handful of existing parts.

 

Follow the photo as best as possible, but be prepared to have to make a few "audible calls".

 

Don't shortcut import safety items like steering, wheels and brakes.

 

Frustrating expensive rabbit hole we go down in order to bring things back to life.. But if done well, can be a delightful joy for a long, long time.