Locomobile undercarriage cover plates, who knows what they look like?

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Dear Locomobile specialists,

on both of my Locos I found several bolts in the bottom chassis rail, their free thread protruding to the underside of the car. I was always wondering about their purpose. The thread size is 5/16"-20 and the free thread length is app. 9/16". There are three bolts on each side: One pair a bit behind the radiator (between crankshaft pulley and water pump), the next one approximately at the third cylinder block, and the last pair just behind the clutch housing. Because with their large base they are specially made on a lathe, and both cars have them, I don't think someone made them by himself. 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Last weekend I visited the Motorworld museum in Brüssel a second time, and I asked the personnel for permission to climb under some cars for closer inspection. I chose the older cars which were very original and not fully restored (only the large areas repainted for display, the engine bay and chassis still dirty). I checked many cars more carefully, and on two (both very expensive and technically advanced Minerva cars, made for the upper class) I found undercarriage covers still in place. Here I found a possible purpose for my bolts: They might hold covers for the undercarriage! Sheet metal covers which protect the engine and flywheel from dust and dirt, also catching all kinds of grease, oil and whatever might fall off your drive train. Some have small latches and doors/flaps for accessing some maintenance points, and some have some air ducts pressed into them.

Have a look for yourself: First the 1911 Minerva X four-cylinder.

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

 

Now the 1921 Minerva OO six-cylinder. The oil pan is not covered like on the 1911 car, and the connection between chassis rail and running board is not made of leather but metal. Our Locos have the toolboxes in that area.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Back home I started searching for evidence on Locomobiles. I didn't find anything in the spare parts catalogues (maybe you know where to find them?),

most contemporary photos are not showing the car from an angle which really shows the undercarriage, usually it is dark anyway), and the old advertisements are mostly painted or renderings, without any details. But...I found at least some photos showing the outer shape and proving that there was at least "something".

 

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Then I looked at photos of the surviving cars. 

 

Most of the cars are "naked". Their siluette shows that clearly: oil pan and flywheel shape and size of the earlier model 48's and later cars are a bit different, but definitely different from the low smooth line of the undercarriage cover plates shown on the original photos.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

One car (the 1922 Sportif which was sold by Bonhams in 2022) shows exactly the same bolts on the chassis as my cars, but no covers.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Finally I found five surviving cars which seem to have the covers installed:

1. the beautifully restored 1917 blue gunboat cabriolet No 11929, which was sold by Gooding in 2021.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

2. The unrestored 1916 collapsible cabriolet No. 10850 which was sold in 2018 for 473.000 $

[Ittenbacher Frank]

3. The Kimball-bodied town car No. 18009. John I hope you will read this and reply with some useful information?

[Ittenbacher Frank]

4. The 1914 Kellner-bodied Berline which seems to belong to someone in Vermont, Ct. I wish to get in touch with the owner, also for his Westinghouse air suspension.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

5. Pegasus, the original 1916 roadster No. 10865 from the Mark Smith collection recently sold by Gooding. I saw that car myself when it was exhibited in the Hershey museum in 2017, but at that time I failed to climb under it and take detailed photos. At least one is showing a bracket which appears to be Y-shaped for better load distribution into the light sheet metal.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

I wish to know how the Loco-covers were made (shape, materials, features,...), in order to reproduce them. I am also very much interested in how they influence the air flow within the engine bay. Do they harm the air flow, or do they help to direct the air through the engine and escape later, in order to assist cooling?

Do they increase the floor temperature for the driver? Will the car become noisier because they reflect the engine noise? Or do they even rattle?

Questions over questions...sorry for my limited knowledge!

I am keen to see your reply. Kind regards from Frank

 

 

 

[Fordy]

I personally cannot provide you with an answer, but I admire the diligence of your research in posting the question. Someone here has the answers, good luck.

Steve

[prewarnut]

Frank,

   From the Bridgeport Historical Library archives are three period photos. No interior frame photos seem to show the detail and some are earlier than when this was adopted. Here is a photo of a Loco racer, a Bridgeport Police vehicle and a car with William Buckley in front of the P.T. Barnum statue (supposedly taken in 1910 but not sure if the car is from that year - maybe later?). They all seem to show the belly pan - the last pretty clearly. I believe you have identified an overlooked feature. Now does the trailing edge of the pan have a baffle? If so driveway oil spots may never have been an issue for a Loco owner.

...Dan.

 

[Ittenbacher Frank]

55 minutes ago, prewarnut said:

Frank,

   From the Bridgeport Historical Library archives are three period photos. No interior frame photos seem to show the detail and some are earlier than when this was adopted. Here is a photo of a Loco racer, a Bridgeport Police vehicle and a car with William Buckley in front of the P.T. Barnum statue (supposedly taken in 1910 but not sure if the car is from that year - maybe later?). They all seem to show the belly pan - the last pretty clearly. I believe you have identified an overlooked feature. Now does the trailing edge of the pan have a baffle? If so driveway oil spots may never have been an issue for a Loco owner.

...Dan.

 

Thanks, Dan! I don't know about a baffle, but I am quite sure the engineers thought well about all details. I hope some response from Loco owners will help to answer our question.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

It is great to have friends who share their knowledge. Previously I said I didn't find these covers in the spare parts book. Now I know: I didn't look for the right wording! In the 1915 parts catalogue it is called "mud apron", in the later years it was called "dust pan". See the catalogue pages attached for the models R5/M5, R7/M7, 38-2 / 48-2 and 48-7. Unfortunately no picture of these parts.

Alan, would you please add the 1924 page? Thanks.

[jcrow]

Some of us believe that those dust pans can contribute to fires, especially with updraft

carbs that release spare gas when the cars don't start. The collection of gasoline and oil

in these pans and the occasional backfire can be a disaster.

 

Some early cars have the flywheel cut with fan blades and had no fan. In those cases the pans were

necessary to get the air flow through the radiator.

 

Johnny

[Grimy]

15 hours ago, jcrow said:

Some of us believe that those dust pans can contribute to fires, especially with updraft

carbs that release spare gas when the cars don't start. The collection of gasoline and oil

in these pans and the occasional backfire can be a disaster.

 

Some early cars have the flywheel cut with fan blades and had no fan. In those cases the pans were

necessary to get the air flow through the radiator.

 

Johnny

I returned Saturday from the annual 5-day Modoc Tour which had eleven RHD (i.e., through 1920) Pierce-Arrows which were originally equipped with what we today call "belly pans."  Most of those cars' owners on this tour had removed the belly pans in the interest of safety as Johnny has described.  Some collectors, however, keep them on for authenticity and, perhaps, judging points--because lack of an installed belly pan is often fatal to judging success.  Several of us engaged in a discussion about those issues.  On *this* tour we saw a 1912 Hudson so equipped dump about a quart of oil from its belly pan when parked diagonally on a heavily banked street.  Several of us recalled an incident about 15 years ago when a Pierce 66 hp had an engine fire on the road from accumulated leaked gasoline in the belly pan.  (Mercifully, the fire was quickly extinguished but the hood was well scorched and I don't know the extent of the damage to the engine, but the car was back on the road within a year.)

 

I can only speak to Pierce-Arrows.  Later Pierces with updraft carburetors (1929-1932 8s) have drain tubes from the carb through the splash pans to the ground, mitigating the problem.  When an engine with an updraft carb is shut down, the vaporized fuel in the intake runners condenses and flows back to the already-full carburetor, creating a spill.  If that spill is retained within a belly pan and thus kept close to the engine and its sources of ignition, a dangerous condition is created.  My 1918 48-B-5 came with a belly pan which I removed for cleaning and to better service the engine.  I had intended to replace it but had second thoughts on the safety issue, so four years later the belly pan is in storage but not installed.

 

Several of us are contemplating an initiative to change PAS judging rules to permit no loss of points in judging competition for lack of a belly pan--perhaps accepting a photograph of a belly pan to demonstrate that the belly pan for that car exists.  If a club/society values the driving of such cars, they should consider such an approach.

[alsfarms]

George, Your point is well taken.  Why don't you share a few "high points" of this years Modoc tour?

Al

[Grimy]

40 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

George, Your point is well taken.  Why don't you share a few "high points" of this years Modoc tour?

Al

Thanks, Al.  This week I'm frantically preparing the 1918 and my truck and trailer for a run beginning Saturday to St George and Bryce Canyon UT for the HCCA Nickel Era Touring Registry's 6-day, 600-mile tour of those areas.

 

Briefly, however, we had 43 cars this year on the Modoc of which 42% were Pierces, but also plenty of Model Ts.  Greater than usual number of riders-with-others due to (1) age and infirmity and (2) projects not completed in time.  Terrific weather:  45-low 80s, no rain.  I had a rider from NY who just acquired a Series 51 and was soaking this unique cultural experience all up, including the deer crossing Main Street in Alturas and in the back yard of our rented Air-B&B house.

 

And so as not to completely hijack this thread, a couple of Locomobiles!

Edited September 18, 2023 by Grimy
added last sentence (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

2 hours ago, Grimy said:

I returned Saturday from the annual 5-day Modoc Tour which had eleven RHD (i.e., through 1920) Pierce-Arrows which were originally equipped with what we today call "belly pans."  Most of those cars' owners on this tour had removed the belly pans in the interest of safety as Johnny has described.  Some collectors, however, keep them on for authenticity and, perhaps, judging points--because lack of an installed belly pan is often fatal to judging success.  Several of us engaged in a discussion about those issues.  On *this* tour we saw a 1912 Hudson so equipped dump about a quart of oil from its belly pan when parked diagonally on a heavily banked street.  Several of us recalled an incident about 15 years ago when a Pierce 66 hp had an engine fire on the road from accumulated leaked gasoline in the belly pan.  (Mercifully, the fire was quickly extinguished but the hood was well scorched and I don't know the extent of the damage to the engine, but the car was back on the road within a year.)

 

I can only speak to Pierce-Arrows.  Later Pierces with updraft carburetors (1929-1932 8s) have drain tubes from the carb through the splash pans to the ground, mitigating the problem.  When an engine with an updraft carb is shut down, the vaporized fuel in the intake runners condenses and flows back to the already-full carburetor, creating a spill.  If that spill is retained within a belly pan and thus kept close to the engine and its sources of ignition, a dangerous condition is created.  My 1918 48-B-5 came with a belly pan which I removed for cleaning and to better service the engine.  I had intended to replace it but had second thoughts on the safety issue, so four years later the belly pan is in storage but not installed.

 

Several of us are contemplating an initiative to change PAS judging rules to permit no loss of points in judging competition for lack of a belly pan--perhaps accepting a photograph of a belly pan to demonstrate that the belly pan for that car exists.  If a club/society values the driving of such cars, they should consider such an approach.

Thanks a lot for the explanation, George! I didn't expect the trouble from that direction. I thought these belly pans or whatever you call them were primarily for protection from stones, dust and mud. This is not really necessary any more on modern clean roads. Secondly they are always in your way when you want to do something on the engine, so first thing before starting on any repair or maintenance is to remove them. Putting back might be an ugly job, I imagine. Especially if you dont have a car lift or an inspection pit. Therefore I thought that pan is the first part to be left away. Another thought is the beauty. A clean engine, especially after restoration, is nice to look at. The belly pan covers a good part and aditionally creates shadow down there. I am not yet sure I really want them...

Your comments on fuel spillage surprizes me a bit. Actually this is what I heard the day when I picked up my Locos. The friends of the deceased previous owner told me: You must pull the needle of the carburettor float until the fuel spills all over, the more the better, then the engine will fire up easier. Actually that was a desperate attempt to overcome the ignition problems which they had created by killing the Bosch dual coil high tension winding! And the leaky brass float had become a diver, which didn't help either.

Today I never touch the fload needle any more, and after having adjusted the fuel pressure in the tank and after lots of driving, the leakage is usually close to zero. Ok, when parking steep downhill in front of my house, you will see a small wet spot on the ground...a spoon full?...you are right.

Generally speaking about the danger of fire on a car, I believe Mr. Riker was far ahead of his time and did a really good job in this regard:

1. carburettor and exhaust are on different sides of the engine.

2. electric system has six fuses for all important circuits

3. Battery is far away from hot parts

4. Loco is equipped with fuel level gauge, there is no need to open the fuel tank except for refuelling

5. fuel-shut-off-valve before the carburetor can help in case of emergency

6. no any rubber hose in the whole fuel system, but strong brass pipes and metal connectors

In contrary, there are so many other cars, big and small, a bit newer and much more modern which are far more dangerous even when they were new.

Back to the belly pans. You said it accumulates oil and/or fuel. Is it closed at the bottom, like a bath tube?

See the Minervas. They seem to have little air scoops (the 1911 car) or round holes in the center (the 1921 car). Aditionally there are several small access doors, which do not look oil-tight. How did Mr. Riker design the Locomobile pans? Some photos would be nice. Pierce or Loco, all are welcome for our understanding.

Thanks! Frank

[Grimy]

Thank you very much, Frank!  You have substantially added to our future claim that belly pans be excluded from judging.  Your six points are all duplicated on the Pierce-Arrow of the same vintage.

 

The Pierce belly pans have a couple of access panels which require loosening a screw before the panel can be removed or moved out of the way to perform some service operation.  The belly pans are not liquid-tight in my opinion, but nearly enough so to permit accumulation of leaked liquids for awhile--and some sections without those removable panels permit pooling of fluids until some volume is achieved.

 

I agree with your point that the belly pans are not needed as much today, now that we have paved roads and debris such as clumps of dirt, stones and horse droppings are no longer a risk to our open clutches and other unprotected components.

 

I completely agree that belly pans were often discarded by mechanics or owners when the cars were a few years old and may have required more service.  Accordingly, belly pans in good condition are expensive today.  The job of removing mine took a friend and me two hours, and I am sure replacement would take double that.  Reproduction costs for Pierce units seem to range from US $8,000 to $20,000!

 

Some of the safety concern is that our floats and carburetors are more than 100 years old, the security of spark plug wires is far less than on later vehicles, and that modern sealing technologies did not exist when these magnificent machines were built.

[alsfarms]

George,

I am looking forward to seeing you and your great Pierce-Arrow in St. George. I will be on that tour also....I wish with my Locomobile, but not yet.

Al

[Grimy]

53 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

George,

I am looking forward to seeing you and your great Pierce-Arrow in St. George. I will be on that tour also....I wish with my Locomobile, but not yet.

Al

Likewise, Al--we haven't seen you guys since the Glidden in 2018(?)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Last weekend I participated in a car rally for cars until 1918.

For the first time in my life I saw one Minerva (again that Belgian make...) with the sleeve-valve engine (Knight-engine) alife and on the road. It works well and reliable, mechanically not absolutely quiet but less mechanical chatter than you hear from other engines of that age. And it is a speedster with a sporty exhaust.

On a flat road you don't see much oil smoke, but when accelerating away from a road crossing after some waiting time, it leaves a small cloud behind.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

I noticed the dust pan on this car, similar to the ones I saw in the museum, with spring-loaded hooks. The owner told me: removal for inspection or maintenance works is quite fast, and putting it back needs maybe 2 or 3 minutes for him alone.

There are several gaps. It is not intended to be oil tight. See yourself. Kind regards! Frank

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)