Interesting Dodge Brothers Articles

[stakeside]

Great history summary 

[30DodgePanel]

What to make of this?

I'm a truck guy and know little about the passenger cars, but I've always assumed that Budd was the body builder or they were built in house. 

 

 

From a auto magazine Aug 1921

 

[30DodgePanel]

More on Grand Rapids Equipment Company under Special Body section.

So CC special delivery bodies and Taxi....

 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

As to your first  piece about bodies Matheson was a top executive while working for DB so he easily could have been a sub contractor. He had, at one time, had his own car then worked for Ford. 

[30DodgePanel]

9 hours ago, nearchoclatetown said:

As to your first  piece about bodies Matheson was a top executive while working for DB so he easily could have been a sub contractor. He had, at one time, had his own car then worked for Ford. 

I believe there may have been some family tie as the one for DB was C.W. Matheson

[nearchoclatetown]

You are right. According to the Matheson website I THINK it was a brother. Point is they were all well connected back then. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by nearchoclatetown (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

28 minutes ago, nearchoclatetown said:

You are right. According to the Matheson website I THINK it was a brother. Point is they were all well connected back then. 

Exactly

[30DodgePanel]

Another head scratcher

 

 

I know I have seen documents showing the date of the Graham/Dodge Brothers agreement but can't recall where.

 

While trying to piece the dates together somehow this has always plagued me. How can it be that the Speed Truck still have articles in late Feb 1921 when supposedly the exclusive deal with Dodge Brothers was reached in 1920? Need to find that document that shows the agreement so if anyone has a copy please post it.

 

I realize it was probably a typo and the article may have been a lagging effect by the publisher, but either way, the document showing the agreement timeline and agreed production start dates would clear things up (hopefully). 

 

 

And the Mechanic Instruction Manual has Feb 1921

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

Here is something I found recently. The first doesn't have a year but I am guessing it's 1922. Notice the date of the second. They hadn't built a car yet.

[30DodgePanel]

Satisfaction guaranteed or your money back. Incredible find!

 

 

Early photo compared to current google view showing the ole garage is still standing.

 

 

[30DodgePanel]

Prior to mass television production,  imagine hearing this on the radio in the 1920s.

 

[30DodgePanel]

In the "Official Guide to Dodge Brothers & Graham Brothers Trucks through 1938" available at the club store there is mention on page 22 of buses that John B calls "behemoths".  Here is that article that gives us a visual into what they may have looked like "IF" they were ever produced. Note, as John mentioned in the Official Guide to trucks "We find no evidence that these were ever produced, but they indicate early interest in six-cylinder engines - a year before the Senior Six". 

 

Both buses appear to have woodlites (Edmunds & Jones) which I had never seen on a GB/DB truck before. Check out the dual driveshaft/rear differential setup. Wild!

 

(For those that may not be aware.... In order to zoom in, double click the article then hold down control on you keyboard with your left pinky and scroll up on your mouse at the same time to zoom in further if needed)

 

Feb 15th 1926

Commercial Car Journal

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

Ah hah !!!!

Here are some missing links, note the dates. 

 

I believe the first document is the main reason Dec 1920 shows up in the Model Chart for trucks. 

The second document is the only factory literature I've ever seen (to date) regarding the very first 1000 series, along with the 4 page brochure below..

 

Still looking for anything concrete showing when the exclusive agreement was finalized. 

 

December 3rd, 1920

 

January 1st, 1921

 

 

I believe this is a partial look at a brochure for the 1000 series

February 23rd, 1921

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

David, are you thinking the Dec. 3 letter is about the GB Speed Truck?

[30DodgePanel]

It did cross my mind and I am still wrestling with it since the letter doesn't clearly state with "disteel" rims, but I believe for now the Speed truck and the 1000 Series or Type "A" are two different trucks.

 

My question now is, did the exclusive deal between the two companies somehow allow Graham to continue production of their own seperate brand for a certain period of time into the early months of 1921 because it's obviously advertised at the same time, but why would they allow it? 

 

                                             Speed Truck                                                                                                                       Type "A" or 1000 Series

 

 Long radiator, disteel rims, half door on cab, cowl lights, fenders bumper                McCord radiator (?), headlights, molded fenders, oval window open cab,                                  windshield frame  flat fenders,                                                                        wood rims, brochure mentions for Dodge Brothers Dealers 

           countless advertisments but no mention of Dodge Brothers 

 

 

 

 

 

This has to be one of the very first logos used in the Graham/Dodge partnership for literature showing fleet owners of Dodge Vehicles and Graham Trucks. This fleet brochure was found in the same batch as the 1000 Series 4 page brochure above.

 

                                Cover                                                               Page 1

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

1927

 

[nearchoclatetown]

As your pictures show the Speed Truck and GB truck were separate vehicles. Didn't we see an overlap of dates in some of your literature before? I am sure there is no literature in the DBC collection about the Speed truck to get any ideas from. I don't ever remember seeing any trucks labeled as Speed trucks in any of the sales contracts either. It seems odd they would have built both at the same time but I think they did. 

[nearchoclatetown]

I just looked at  he DB/GB truck reprint from the DBC store. It claims the GB exclusive contract happened in April 1921. SO I think the first letter you show is for the Speed trucks. JB said no known survivors exist and I do not know of any being found since. BTW, that GB/DB logo is pretty clever, have not seen that before that I remember. Michael Keller's book  on DB/GB trucks is quoted and referred to. Now I guess I need to go to the library tomorrow as I don't have it.

Edited November 27, 2023 by nearchoclatetown (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

Graham Man referred that book to me also. I've been thinking of buying a copy off eBay, but I can't justify $100 unless I know there's some valuable details inside from primary sources. Far too many books have second and third source material that is either incorrect, missing details and sometimes authors don't make the proper note to what the source is... I also fear it may only have two bits of truck info and the rest 99% Graham-Paige stuff..

 

I may still buy a copy, let me know if you rent it and if you think it's worth it.

 

2 hours ago, nearchoclatetown said:

I just looked at  he DB/GB truck reprint from the DBC store. It claims the GB exclusive contract happened in April 1921. SO I think the first letter you show is for the Speed trucks. JB said no known survivors exist and I do not know of any being found since. BTW, that GB/DB logo is pretty clever, have not seen that before that I remember. Michael Keller's book  on DB/GB trucks is quoted and referred to. Now I guess I need to go to the library tomorrow as I don't have it.

 

This is not a criticism, just looking for answers...

I wish they made note in the truck reprint at the club store for the source being April 1921. Probably a confidential bulletin...

As for the Speed Truck being the Dec 3rd letter reference, I'm going to withhold my thoughts on that as speculation always bites me in the tush. 

I do believe you're onto something but I want to see more.

 

 

 

[30DodgePanel]

What have I done???!!!!

 

When I first started studying 1928-32 trucks I always told myself "don't go there" in regards to looking back at Graham Brothers early relationship with Dodge Brothers because I knew how brutally in depth it was going to be, now here I am as deep into the weeds as I can get  ....

 

Note the date, the model is "A" and the wheelbase is 133 and not 140, with Disteel wheels. 
One of the most encouraging things (on a personal level) is the name of the radiator "Yng"  lol, who knew?

We know the name of the radiator was Long according to quite a few advertisements.... so the name seemingly Young was a misprint.

 

 

 

 

 

This is insane

Edited December 8, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

I think you will find the Disteel wheels are Speed Truck. The Speed Truck used ugly looking disc wheels. The later disc wheels are Michelin, made by Budd.

[30DodgePanel]

More to the soup....

 

Compare this memo from Graham Brothers to the one from Dodge Brothers later in March (below).

This is definitely speaking of the 1000 series, the first trucks co-produced under the exclusive deal

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

Confusing! It still sounds like the customer had to purchase the #7 chassis from DB, have it shipped to GB to be built. Doesn't it? The truck reprint talks of Haynes seeing so many component orders to GB and that is what prompted the agreement. But it doesn't specify an exact date for that. Or is that the April  date?

[30DodgePanel]

True, it is confusing.

I could see why this prompted the aggreement for a more simplified and standardized brand.

I don't know how April fits yet. These documents will take some thorough re-reading and studying in my opinion before we can fully understand them. 

I'll need to revisit this after a good nights rest or two lol  

 

 

 

[30DodgePanel]

After revisiting the official truck guide I'm really blown away by how much John, Brian, Harry (and others) evidently studied this years ago. I find myself wondering, are these the same documents they were looking through for their answers? Much gratitude goes out to the men that saved this information (including yourself). 

 

Although a lot has been accomplished, I personally still struggle with every layout and explanation I've seen that's been published, and this thread is certainly all over the place as well....

 

My idea for the past two years has been to put together a comprehensive look at each model by year per booklet. I understand why most books have the entire story of GB/DB lumped all together, but lumping them all together is not how my chronological brain works. I really don't have the time for it but I have to make time somehow so I can make better sense of it all and somehow hopefully relay a more clear picture of the chronological process. Just my own opinion of how it needs to be displayed so I can understand it more thoroughly.

 

I have visions of a massive white board with each model on a genealogy tree of sorts lol... 

Someday I'll figure it all out, but until then the shrink is making a killing  

[ArticiferTom]

Sound to me like there saying frame and chassis are two parts both previously supplied by Dodge . Now Graham prebuilding on the frame and assembling to chassis at there plant or shipping separate .

[nearchoclatetown]

I think you are right Tom. It may have been to strengthen the frame and change wheelbase. Missed you at Hershey this year. 

[nearchoclatetown]

I just read several pages of Keller's book. The Monarch governor was used on GB trucks, at least on Speed Trucks according to Keller. 

[30DodgePanel]

[ArticiferTom]

Yeah Doug , Was There but came in east side HP so walked Red Field mostly and sat at Handleman's tent a bit during heat of day .

[30DodgePanel]

Snippets from different Tractor and Truck magazines of the era

Tractor World Magazine 1920

 

 

 

From a Power Wagon Magazine. A Speed BUS?!!!

 

[30DodgePanel]

[30DodgePanel]

[nearchoclatetown]

All the pictures of the front of a Speed Truck seem to show a hand crank, as if it is a permanent thing. The starter crank on my Light Repair Truck is permanent. Strange design

[30DodgePanel]

I may have posted this before, my apologies if so....

 

The A is referred to in many Motor publications in early 1921 in the specs section, it doesn't say Speed Truck (due to space) but it must be the same truck as shown here in "The Official Handbook of Automobiles 1921". Also notice no closed cab as the door is missing with wider whitewalls and the Speed Bus price is listed also. 

 

[30DodgePanel]

Two separate articles from different publications about the bumper.

 

 

[nearchoclatetown]

Notice it's not a DB engine. Thermo syphon radiator,  two unit starter/generator, and 6 volt. 

[30DodgePanel]

Exactly, I was hoping you would notice that. So although there is no clear distinction regarding the exact time that GB made the complete and final switch from Speed Truck to 1000 Series with DB parts, this still shows they walked away from the Speed truck at some point in the spring of 1921 . 

 

I started working on a power point early this morning so I can get a better chronological layout going. I'll talk to Tracy to see if we can move forward once I have it organized the way it needs to be.

 

By the way, I've only found one article that mentioned the color used as a deep Graham Blue, yet in another article I found this color of a lighter variety, albeit an artists rendition.

 

[nearchoclatetown]

Keller has a copy of an ad for a Truck Builder that says the kits could be used on 40 named vehicles PLUS others. Then he talks about a Speed Truck having 22.5 hp and thermo syphon cooling UNTIL they realized DB was a better powerplant. The only car listed in the 40 that had thermo syphon that I know of was Ford. I sure wish we could find a dated brochure, ad, or newspaper article about the agreement with DB.

[30DodgePanel]

Exactly. Until then we have to piece it all together using several publications while trying to verify the details of each. As I've said, I have to see the proof....

 

So we know Detroit started at 50001 sometime in April/May of 1922. Both the Mechanics Book and Model Chart have different months but for the sake of discussion, for now, it's close enough... Onto the next point.

 

However, what to make of the fact that Evansville according to Mechanics Instruction Manual has always been different by 1000 units when comparing to the model chart?

 

As we revisit the Dec 3rd letter above keep in mind this was during the holiday season when production ramps down we notice the one key line that says "It is manufactured only for Dodge Brothers Dealers", then shortly after on Jan 1st, 1921 the Graham Brothers (which in reality with the slow holiday season is probably 2 weeks of production give or take) sends a spec sheet to Dodge showing the new 1000 series so we know they were producing the 1000 and the Speed Truck at the same time in early 1921. We also know Haynes realized  the fact the demand for trucks was something DB couldn't avoid any longer after taking over which surely prompted an agreement but still the date of that agreement is obviously unclear. I think we will probably find proof that Haynes didn't want the direct competition with the Speed Truck so he was aggressive towards a deal. That would seem the most logical business thing to do considering the era, but that is all speculation unfortunately.

 

 

I wonder if a process of elimination of sorts has ever been analyized? Meaning, can we for sure say what the 1000 missing link figure is, whether it's Speed Trucks or the 1000 series? Or was it simply a typo in the Model Chart? Still plagues me... but the answer is out there somewhere.