1920 Dodge Brothers ignition switch problems

[Adam72]

Good Evening fellow Dodge owners. I have a question. The ignition switch on my 1920 Dodge Brothers works in reverse (off is for starting and on is for turning it off) it’s a pain as when the car is running and driving the ignition key falls out onto the floor. When you turn the engine off the key can’t be removed as it’s in the on position. I hope that all makes sense. I’ve checked the wiring and it all seems in the correct spot. What should I look for to fix this issue.

thanks in advance

Adam

Edited May 13, 2023 by Adam72 (see edit history)

[Minibago]

The ignition switch on your car should ground the magneto by making a circuit with the wire to the magneto ground wire.

When off it is simply disconnecting that circuit.

It should be a four contact switch.

 

[nat]

     Here are the connections shown in the Mechanics Instruction for two ignition switches.  Both have a terminal for "coil or magneto".

     I'm eager to learn how the same switch can supply a charge to the coil and lamps or alternately ground the magneto.

[Mark Gregush]

Re above 3 point switch illustration: Could be the person doing the drawing got the label wrong and should have just said magneto and was just one of those things that never got corrected. 

[TonyAus]

The answer is found by reading on in the handbook.  Four types of switch were used: Three and four point for coil ignition and three and four point for magneto.  The coil ignition switches connect and disconnect power to the coil from the ammeter. The magneto switches, as previously indicated, just ground out the magneto in the off position.

Returning to the original problem I think that it's a matter of derangement within the switch.  Carefully bend the tabs holding the back of the switch and remove the innards. Check that the key barrel is moving the contacts correctly between the coil and ammeter terminals.

One problem I found with these switches is that the original wire terminals were relatively thick.  If you use modern thinner terminals with or without the original spring washers the terminal screws can protrude too far into the switch and cause electrical mayhem.

[Mark Gregush]

"The answer is found by reading on in the handbook."

 

My 1914 to 1927 Mechanics' Instruction Manual shows the above illustrations with no information that I could see as far as any descriptions of the different switches on a quick look through, maybe I missed it. US cars, it was less common for them to come with a magneto after 1916 when the Delco distributor was introduced, so maybe some of that information was dropped. Could be because the Australian and NZ cars used the magneto much longer that information stayed in the book longer. ?

[nat]

      I think those two captions are the only place in that manual where the word "magneto" appears.

      It seems to me that the switch for a magneto would have to be diffeent than that for a coil.  

[TonyAus]

I should have mentioned that the manual I have is the export version.  This includes detailed instructions on both magneto and coil ignition.

[Adam72]

On 5/15/2023 at 2:50 PM, TonyAus said:

The answer is found by reading on in the handbook.  Four types of switch were used: Three and four point for coil ignition and three and four point for magneto.  The coil ignition switches connect and disconnect power to the coil from the ammeter. The magneto switches, as previously indicated, just ground out the magneto in the off position.

Returning to the original problem I think that it's a matter of derangement within the switch.  Carefully bend the tabs holding the back of the switch and remove the innards. Check that the key barrel is moving the contacts correctly between the coil and ammeter terminals.

One problem I found with these switches is that the original wire terminals were relatively thick.  If you use modern thinner terminals with or without the original spring washers the terminal screws can protrude too far into the switch and cause electrical mayhem.

Thank you. I now have a problem where the car will start but when I turn the key to off nothing happens and the engine keeps running. I have to turn off the vacuum tank to run the engine out of fuel. It’s such a simple switch I can’t work out why it won’t kill the engine. All wires are corrected to the correct rerminals

[Minibago]

The switch disconnects to nothing internally when turned to the on position allowing the Magneto to generate spark on rotation.

The switch connects to the ground wire, to earth the magneto to short out the spark and stop the motor.

If the motor keeps running then perhaps the ground wire from the magneto to the ignition switch is broken, please check this wire’s continuity as a first step.

[Minibago]

Gee Jack, you make a simple thing complicated without addressing the problem.

This car is fitted with a magneto.

A magneto does not need a power source to operate.

The four connection Clum ignition switch fitted to magneto cars, when turned to on, breaks the connection to the magneto ground wire allowing the magneto, when rotated, to create a spark.

This term is known as a hot magneto.

The same switch when turned to off makes the connection with the magneto ground wire preventing spark generation and cutting the engine.

Adam has stated that he has checked correct wiring location.

The ground wire is broken somewhere along it’s length leaving the magneto hot all the time. This does not mean it has power to it, it simply means that if you rotate it, it will create a spark.

With no ground the engine will continue to run while ever the magneto rotates.

[nat]

    Sometime after my first reply it dawned on me that ignition switches are specific to magneto, (off connects ignition to ground), or coil, (off disconnects power to coil).  My U.S. manual tries not to mention the "M" word.

     Your first post suggest that you have a coil switch in a magneto car.  

     If that's the case, put a hidden switch behind the dash that will connect the magneto terminal to ground.

     I have the correct switch for my coil ignition but am too conservative, (AKA; cheap), to buy a DB89 key so I put a switch behind the dash and connected the switched side of that to the instrument light to let me know that the ignition is on.

          

 

[Mark Gregush]

1 hour ago, nat said:

    Sometime after my first reply it dawned on me that ignition switches are specific to magneto, (off connects ignition to ground), or coil, (off disconnects power to coil).  My U.S. manual tries not to mention the "M" word.

     Your first post suggest that you have a coil switch in a magneto car.  

     If that's the case, put a hidden switch behind the dash that will connect the magneto terminal to ground.

     I have the correct switch for my coil ignition but am too conservative, (AKA; cheap), to buy a DB89 key so I put a switch behind the dash and connected the switched side of that to the instrument light to let me know that the ignition is on.

          

 

 Me too but...Dodge Graham Maxwell key 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 CLUM switch key | eBay

[cutdown]

Adam 72. You have not mentioned whether you have points ign or magneto.  

 

iF YOU HAVE A MAGNETTO , READ ON.  iF NOT, DONT LOOK ANY FURTHER.

 

My switch did not appear to be operating correctly so I took it apart. It inly had 2 springs in it where there should have been 3. [ Because I didn't have a key, and  In order to test the switch I made a key blank out of a sheet of galvanized iron, ] I ended up converting that into 2 keys., I had lost any form of key I.D. so I set about resetting the toggles/tumblers and making 2 keys to fit.  One of the keys had a spigot at the end from when I first made the blank. That switch worked well, and the other didn't turn the mag off, [ IE short out to earth ]. I took the switch apart again and worked out that there should have been another spring in the centre to act as the earthing contact. After reassembling, my switch worked perfectly.

 

When the key is rotated to the anticlockwise position, it is in the running position, and the toggle/tumblers stop the key falling out.  When turned clockwise, it shuts the engine down because it has earthed out the coil. Like the carb on these engines, it is virtually bullet proof until some numb-scull has a fiddle.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited June 6, 2023 by cutdown (see edit history)

[Adam72]

On 6/4/2023 at 9:57 PM, Minibago said:

The switch disconnects to nothing internally when turned to the on position allowing the Magneto to generate spark on rotation.

The switch connects to the ground wire, to earth the magneto to short out the spark and stop the motor.

If the motor keeps running then perhaps the ground wire from the magneto to the ignition switch is broken, please check this wire’s continuity as a first step.

Thanks Nige. I will double check that when I have recovered from my surgery 🙂

[Adam72]

On 6/6/2023 at 1:18 PM, cutdown said:

Adam 72. You have not mentioned whether you have points ign or magneto.  

 

iF YOU HAVE A MAGNETTO , READ ON.  iF NOT, DONT LOOK ANY FURTHER.

 

My switch did not appear to be operating correctly so I took it apart. It inly had 2 springs in it where there should have been 3. [ Because I didn't have a key, and  In order to test the switch I made a key blank out of a sheet of galvanized iron, ] I ended up converting that into 2 keys., I had lost any form of key I.D. so I set about resetting the toggles/tumblers and making 2 keys to fit.  One of the keys had a spigot at the end from when I first made the blank. That switch worked well, and the other didn't turn the mag off, [ IE short out to earth ]. I took the switch apart again and worked out that there should have been another spring in the centre to act as the earthing contact. After reassembling, my switch worked perfectly.

 

When the key is rotated to the anticlockwise position, it is in the running position, and the toggle/tumblers stop the key falling out.  When turned clockwise, it shuts the engine down because it has earthed out the coil. Like the carb on these engines, it is virtually bullet proof until some numb-scull has a fiddle.

 

Hope this helps.

Magneto and thanks for the information

[Adam72]

Just an update to you all. I had an auto electrician take a look for me and the issue was the contact in the end of the magneto. The contact had moved and when the key was turned to off wasn’t shorting out the magneto to cut the engine off. He stent 10 minutes and had it all fixed for me. Thanks for all the advice and what to look for. Very much appreciated

Edited July 12, 2023 by Adam72 (see edit history)

[JACK M]

I apologize for not reading the entire thread.

I did see that you are working with a magneto.

It is obvious to me that you are using a switch designed for a points type distributor.

They work kind of backwards, A mag has to make a circuit to shut down whereas a points distributor has to break a circuit to shut down.

In the marine industry back when they were mostly two cycles (which are magnetos) we used a switch that would ground the mag when turned off. A bonus was that there was also a circuit that would turn on accessories at the same time that it opened the ground to the mag.

Look for a switch that came from a two stroke Evinrude from the 70s or 80s. Or search aftermarket outboard motor switches.

 

Later, I see that you got it working now. Thats good news.

I guess you can disregard my comments. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by JACK M (see edit history)