KEK Posted January 30, 2023 Share Posted January 30, 2023 Hi everyone- I pulled my rear wheel hub to change the axle seal on my model 24 standard and found the inner E-brake lining needs to be replaced. There is suitable brass impregnated brake lining on McMasters site that can be riveted or bonded. Should I bond or rivet the lining? The originals are riveted so I would assume that might be the best approach. Please advise. Thanks, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibarlaw Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 I riveted mine. I had to redo all the brakes since whoever had done them before used STEEL SPLIT RIVETS! The right rear internal band was in bad shape and I had to make new copper rivets for the ends Also the material I got from Chicago Brake Supply was too thick 3/16" Specified is 5/32". I had to sand off 1/32" to get a proper fit. (good thing it is non asbestos!) Not much space for adjustment for the internal band. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 I think 3/16 is the thinnest they list. It worked on my 17 although 5/32 might have been better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KEK Posted January 31, 2023 Author Share Posted January 31, 2023 (edited) Yes I could only find 3/16” thick on McMasters site. I couldn’t find a link to Chicago Brake Supply so maybe be they are out of business. Looks like I have no choice but to try the 3/16”. I also found a site that sells copper rivets. I assume these are cold rivets? I have installed hot rivets but not cold rivets. Is there a special tool I need? Also does anyone know the specifications, i.e. diameter and length? Thanks ken Edited January 31, 2023 by KEK Spellind (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Shaw Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 (edited) 57 minutes ago, KEK said: I also found a site that sells copper rivets. I assume these are cold rivets? I have installed hot rivets but not cold rivets. Is there a special tool I need? Yes, cold rivets that require counter-sink holes for the heads and a special tool to set the rivets. I used a friends antique brake rivet machine that does the drilling and riveting. Edited January 31, 2023 by Mark Shaw (see edit history) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KEK Posted January 31, 2023 Author Share Posted January 31, 2023 I need to check with my friends to see if anyone has a rivet machine. That’s very cool and would make the job way easier. If not, I will have to figure out a way to use a hammer to set the rivet. I noticed that I can get copper or brass rivets and there is a guide to help me determine length depending on total thickness. I will measure the diameter from a rivet in my existing liners. Does anyone know if I should use copper or brass? Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KEK Posted February 1, 2023 Author Share Posted February 1, 2023 I was thumbing around in a 1925 shop manual and came across this information. Apparently the thickness of the liner for a 1925 is 3/16” so the material from McMaster should be perfect. I guess I should have read the manual first….I don’t ask for directions either..just ask my wife. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 Ken, The rivet head should be countersunk into the lining material. The flared end is on the backside or inside of the internal band. One of Larry's photos has the rivets in backwards. There are some countersinking rivet bits, but last time I looked, I had a hard time finding one with a hole small enough for my early rivets. I ended up using an end mill and drilling the center of the hole for the rivet to the correct size. To install the rivet I usually use a pan head screw in my vise. Being that the bands are circular and the rivet is on the inside, you may have to get a little creative on the installation. Hanson sells brass rivets and the star flare tool. Hugh . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KEK Posted February 1, 2023 Author Share Posted February 1, 2023 Hi Hugh- Thanks for the link to Hanson Rivet and Supply. I also found an online supplier and they have an air tool for my air hammer. I would need to buck the head. https://www.rivetsonline.com/solid-semi-tubular-rivet-tools/air-hammer-setsdies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibarlaw Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 Doing the riveting for my Master brakes. I bought a fairly rough riveting machine. I still have to go thru the motor for the drilling feature. Presently I use my drill press. When I did my Standard brakes over 10 years ago I used a combination of a small bench type and a local hardware store's machine stashed away in the corner. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KEK Posted February 2, 2023 Author Share Posted February 2, 2023 The Model A stores have a small riveting tool for brake liners that fit in your vise. I think the rivets that work in these tools are smaller than the ones we need for the Buicks. I still need to check to see if any of my friends have an old rivet machine like yours. It’s very cool. The rivets Hugh bought from Hansons for his brake liners are only 1/8” long. So how deep do you countersink the hole in the brake liner so you still have enough rivet to peen over? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibarlaw Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 Pretty much the rivet should be countersunk 1/2 way through the thickness of the lining. The new lining can take a countersink and give a clean hole. Some material is better using a burr. I had a box of 4/6 rivets which are too long. When I went to do the Master brakes the bands aleady had been drilled larger than original, I actually took brass tubing and cut collars to fit over the correct size rivets so everthing fit better. Even with the press the consistancy of the final set was not great. I stillhad to use a setting tool I made to clean them up a bit. The problem being that the rivet was a bit too long. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KEK Posted February 2, 2023 Author Share Posted February 2, 2023 Larry - Did you use the original holes in the metal backing late for the new rivets or did you rivet the new liner in the original rivet holes? Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibarlaw Posted February 3, 2023 Share Posted February 3, 2023 Ken it seems as though you asked the same question 2 different ways. The metal backing plate we will refer to as the brake band. Yes I used the holes that were there. But as shown in my previous post they had already been drilled oversize. I have a box of about 400 rivets out of the original 1000. 4/5 size. 4/4 would be perfect. But holes were oversized for #5 rivets. I have a lathe and it took me about 1/2 hour to part off the 22 brass collars to fit the #4 rivets in the too big holes. See previous post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KEK Posted February 4, 2023 Author Share Posted February 4, 2023 Larry- Thanks for the clarification. I misunderstood the diagram Hugh posted from Hansons rivets that show dimensions of the 5/6 brass rivet. What is not shown in the diagram is the total length under the head. I went to the Hanson website and see that the length under the head for the 5/6 rivet is 3/8”. The 0.125” shown in the posted diagram is the length of the hole. I also see that the 4/4 rivet total length under the head is 1/4” and the length of the hole is also 0.125”. If my brake material liner is 3/16” thick and I need to countersink 1/2 the thickness would give me a drill depth of 3/32” (0.097). My brake liner is about 0.06”. So the length of the rivet under the head to the bottom of the brake band would be close to 0.157”. Adding the length of rivet that needs to be clinched would be the total length of the rivet that I would need. A 4/4 rivet would give me about 0.1” to clinch and a 4/6 or 5/6 rivet would give me about 0.2”. I think I might be overthinking this….. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 (edited) Ken, The shaft diameter is the same on a 4 or a 5 rivet, so you have to decide if you are going to use a size 4 or size 5 head diameter. This should be based on the size of the existing rivet and perhaps the material you are trying to hold in place and if it needs a larger head. Next is length. I posted clutch rivet information. All but the end clutch discs are double sided friction material, so the rivet needed is longer. There are several notes on the clutch rivets in my friction disc presentation. One of the end backings is .085 thick for the single disc. For this single disc, I used 5-4 rivets. That would be more like a brake lining and your .060 thickness. To use your calculations. .097 friction thickness + .060 metal band thickness + 1/8 flare depth (but I would use .110 as a depth to ensure there is sufficient depth and not bottoming out) = .267 so 1/4" is a good length rivet. This means a 5-4 or a 4-4 is what you want. Like Larry said. Hugh Edited February 4, 2023 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KEK Posted February 4, 2023 Author Share Posted February 4, 2023 Hugh/Larry- Thanks for your help. I have all the information I need to replace the brake lining. I have a friend that says he has an old rivet machine but may not have the tooling I need. He also has a small vice rivet tool but I think it is for Model As. He is out of town so I wont be able to look at the until next week. In any case I am on the right track thanks to you. Ken 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 Ken, The rivet head should be countersunk into the lining material. The flared end is on the backside or inside of the internal band. One of Larry's photos has the rivets in backwards. There are some countersinking rivet bits, but last time I looked, I had a hard time finding one with a hole small enough for my early rivets. I ended up using an end mill and drilling the center of the hole for the rivet to the correct size. To install the rivet I usually use a pan head screw in my vise. Being that the bands are circular and the rivet is on the inside, you may have to get a little creative on the installation. Hanson sells brass rivets and the star flare tool. Hugh . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KEK Posted February 20, 2023 Author Share Posted February 20, 2023 All- I ordered the 3/16” thick brass impregnated brake lining from McMasters. It was 1 1/4” wide which is 1/8” less than the specification calls but that shouldn’t be a problem for a hand brake. I borrowed a rivet jig from a friend that fits in a vice. Not as fancy as Larry’s antique riveting machine but was easy to use and did a good job. It has a punch to remove the old rivets, a countersink drill bit and a clinch tool. I set my drill press to countersink the holes about 50%. The countersink bit was the perfect size and worked well. I obtained 4/4 brass rivets from Hanson’s which turned out to be the perfect size. They fit the existing holes in my brake band and was the same diameter as the countersink bit. I cleaned up the old bands, painted them, installed the new lining and back on the car. It’s so nice to have a hand brake that works as it should. Thanks everyone for helping me with this project. It was easier than expected because of your help. Ken 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now