Can regulators be repaired?

[m-mman]

The car is my 1942 Hudson. The generator is in top shape. The charging system uses a 3 brush generator with a voltage regulation relay. And the typical cut out relay. 

 

Got the car and it quit charging. Opened the generator and cleaned, replaced and repaired. 

 

Searched eBay and found two regulators. They are Hudson only 1940 to 1950 so they are not common. 

I bought on used one and a NORS one. 

I installed the used one (and adjusted the third brush as described in the manual) and it has worked well for about a year. 

 

This week it quit charging. (yes full field and it charges like crazy) Both the original and the used regulator did nothing. I installed the NORS one and it is back charging again. 

 

My question: Can a regulator be repaired?  If it were a common part I wouldn't even try, but since these are not, if I could save them it would be nice. 

 

The factory shop manual says "dont even think about it adjusting it, just install a new one"  The motors manuals discuss adjusting a regulator but not troubleshooting a dead one. 

Any thoughts? 

[Larry Schramm]

[Oldtech]

Here is the diagram of the Auto Lite  regulator for a 3 brush system. Note there is a fuse - it may not look like one, likely on the bottom of the regulator. otherwise you should be able to trace the circuit.   SORRY it's sideways. I dunno why.

[Larry Schramm]

Easier to read.

[Bloo]

Yes you can repair regulators. As you can see by looking at them, there isn't much to go wrong. Follow the current paths through it using @Oldtech's diagram. Those don't even look corroded up. Riveted connections deserve a close look, and resistors which can have a broken resistance wire. The fuse @Oldtech mentioned may be a fuse wire.

 

Since the manual is telling you not to adjust it, avoid the springs and avoid taking the armatures off the relays or resetting any points gaps. Light cleaning only on the points, like dragging paper soaked in brake cleaner between the points, etc. A tiny file is ok in severe cases but maybe one drag. These old regulators often have precious metal, platinum, silver, etc on the points and you don't want to lose it. No sandpaper. It will leave crud embedded in the points. The adjustment info is probably in a MoTor or Motor Age manual of the period, but avoid all that for now.

 

That fuse (fuse wire?) is probably broken because it is consistent with your symptoms. If you find it is the problem, it is time to really scrutinize your battery cables and connections for the whole charging system. A peculiarity of third brush generators is that the voltage will try to run away when there is no load (no battery). When the voltage runs away like that, it will try to burn out the field in the generator because the voltage gets so much higher than the field was designed to take. If you find that fuse burned up, my guess is the battery got disconnected somehow when the engine was running.

 

If the fuse isn't burned up, maybe post more pics from different angles and from the bottom.

 

EDIT: That might not be the same one @Oldtech posted. Post your Autolite number or better yet a pic of the tag. "Two Charge" may have already been gone(?) by 1942 in favor of some other two-unit Autolite regulator.

 

EDIT 2: Also whats your generator number? Hudson was using third brush from 1940-1950? That doesn't sound right. Almost everyone dumped third brush systems in 1940. I'm wondering if your generator and regulator go together. I probably don't have a way to look it up, but I'll try, and If I can't maybe someone else can.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[dodge28]

 The answer to your question  is YES.      Check with  AER, 517 345 7272,866 228 0218. jason@aerrebuild.com (Jason) he may be able to help. Another person who may be able to help is Brilman Wires,  540 340 0226. They seldom answer the phone.   

[dodge28]

Bloo , that is good advice. The reason whoever say to replace it is obvious. In the better designs regulators there is a tiny adjusting screw to fine tune adjusting the voltage contacts. To do that a voltmeter and a ammeter must be hooked up while the engine is running. Then turn the adjusting screw to achieve the desired results. Ambient temperature must be taken into account. In this piece of sh###t it is necessary to use a pliers to bend the tab holding the spring.No wonder it is recommended to throw away.   

[m-mman]

Ok, back on the board. I just spent the last week rewiring the headlights. Darn cloth insulation and their shorts!   

But new connections, with heavy gauge wires and cleaned grounds and the lights are brighter, so there was progress. 

 

The generator is number 4801-A listed in Hollanders as 1940 to 1950.  And YES, it is a 3 brush type.  I dont think Hudson ever let progress or unit cost containment get in the way of their engineering. 

 

The regulator is VRR 4008-A     Hollanders lists and interchanges it with VRP 4008-A to D    1950 shows VRP 6002-A 

 

 

 

The Bottom of the two old bad regulators.   No fuse is seen  The resistor is a carbon bar (30 ohms?) and my meter measures it as 25.8 ohms. 

 

Well, I know why THIS one is dead.  When necessary I guess this link can act as a fuse. . . . . ? 

 

 

 

This inoperative regulator shows no burning or damage.   Using my meter, It seems to have continuity where it should. 

 

So, one is dead. The other might be a learning project.  I also think I will investigate the other regulator numbers on eBay. 

 

[Frank DuVal]

That melted object might be the fuse. Hard to tell. Those rusty screws might be able to be removed and cleaned up. Bad connections are never good in electrical circuits.

[EmTee]

Throw them in a bucket of Evaporust! 

[Oldtech]

My trusty Autolite book from 1952 doesn't show this exact regulator with the 4 terminal.  There is a voltage regulator pdf at the Studebaker which may help you.  

autolite cover.cdr - Studebaker-info.org 

 

[m-mman]

17 minutes ago, Oldtech said:

My trusty Autolite book from 1952 doesn't show this exact regulator with the 4 terminal.

Hudson was first with the red (not) charging light. They called it Tele-flash.   

The 4th terminal is the ground for that light when the cut out relay is open. (not charging)  One of the things that makes the Hudson version scarce. 

[Oldtech]

My Hudson book shows VRR4001A for all 42-47.  No setting info. Yes Hudson pioneered idiot lights.  Mostly because the oil pump was plunger and  the 2 charge regulator. 

[Bloo]

The burned one is not necessarily dead. My 1947 Motor Age and 1949 MoTor both list the generator and regulator for this car. There is setup info. I might not be able to post this for a day or 2 due to the holiday, unless I can get cellphone pics of the pages to turn out OK. Maybe.

 

This is not "two charge", although the wiring is similar. This is a modern type vibrating voltage regulator plus a cutout, and operates on a different plan than a TC series "two charge" regulator. If my manual can be believed, the wiring diagram already posted by @Oldtech should match this Hudson regulator except for the possible lack of a fuse, despite the diagram being labeled "two charge".

 

This is a 43 amp system, crazy huge for a third brush system, although it will be a bit hobbled by the bell curve of third brush current regulation, so I guess it makes sense... sort of.

 

The field current is less than 2 amps at 6 volts. I am no stranger to field fuses. Chrysler alternator systems had a fuse wire for a field that drew about 2 amps. It was at 12 volts, but that doesn't really matter. When the correct fuse wires were no longer readily available, I often used a tiny copper strand to replace it.

 

For a 2 amp field, when substituting copper wire for a fuse wire, the wire could, and should, be REALLY tiny. A tiny strand from a piece of stranded copper wire will work. If magnet wire is to be used, even #30 is on the large size for 2 amps. Think tiny. The tinier the better. A #30 wire would take a surprising amount of time to open even at 12 or 15 amps. Still, it is remarkably smaller than the wire in the generator and should offer some protection when things go bad. It can be soldered in place. It should have a little loop, so that temperature changes and vibration can't move it around enough to crack it. Copper work hardens quickly, so we don't want it to get bent by motion much at all.

 

The lack of a screw for adjustment here is no big deal, because nothing should need adjusting. The failures should first be repaired. If adjustment is necessary it can be dealt with when the system is working.

 

[Frank DuVal]

Adding to Bloo's comments,

 

Finding "fuse" ratings of copper wire is difficult, but here is one chart I found:

 

https://www.powerstream.com/wire-fusing-currents.htm

 

According to this chart, #30 might blow carrying 10 amps.

 

One can find small copper wire by using one strand from stranded wire. Use vernier calipers or micrometer to get size and compare to chart.