Mid-1920's Sedan, what make/model

[Gunsmoke]

This was posted on FB, curious what car may be, thinking perhaps '27 era Pontiac?

 

[Jim Eviston]

I wish someone would figure out what this is.

I can't find anything, from the common to the obscure that fits all the criteria.

Drum headlights, crown and details of fender, hubcap shape, four lug rims,beltline mouldings on doors,door handle style etc 

Been all through the alphabet of ca.1923 U.S. and Canadian cars. Nothing.

I officially give up

Now watch it be something common I missed.

[Oldtech]

Looks GM in many ways so could be 27 Pontiac. It looks like it has the ribs on the splash apron. I don't think Paige has those. also the visor isn't right.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Oldtech (see edit history)

[Gunsmoke]

One reason I mentioned '27 Pontiac is because I helped a friend restore this '27 Pontiac Coupe, similar door beltlines and handles, fender moldings, visor style, bead on aprons, 12 spoke wheels and similar hubcaps. Only 2nd year for Pontiacs. Could be '26 or maybe '28. Don't have photo with headlights on car.

[nzcarnerd]

8 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

One reason I mentioned '27 Pontiac is because I helped a friend restore this '27 Pontiac Coupe, similar door beltlines and handles, fender moldings, visor style, bead on aprons, 12 spoke wheels and similar hubcaps. Only 2nd year for Pontiacs. Could be '26 or maybe '28. Don't have photo with headlights on car.

Pontiac got front brakes for 1928. I think the mystery car is bigger than a Pontiac and Paige looks to be a good choice.

[Gunsmoke]

A couple of 1927 Pontiac Sedan pictures, share most of details of OP. Can't find a Paige or Graham Paige carrying the same details (3rd pic is of a '26 Paige). The 2 women may be quite short, leading one to think car is larger than it actually might be. Still my vote. That thin board visor and chrome curved brackets is a signature Fisher Body detail of late 20's GM products. Haven't seen it on other cars. This car would be in Eastern Canada, and thus likely a common make. Might also be Oakland, Pontiac's big brother, although some details may not match.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

I would like to hear what Grimy thinks about this one.

While the hubcap does look very much like the ones Paige used for about six years? Nothing else on the car looks "Paige" to me. I cannot recall ever seeing a Paige with fenders like the OP car. Nor have I seen a sun visor like that one on a Paige, Although an after-market one might be possible. However most Paige sedans in the mid 1920s had the long roof line overreaching the windshield like the Paige that Gunsmoke posted just above. The four lug wheels also suggest it would not be a Paige.

But the hubcap sure looks like it could be?

[Gunsmoke]

These hubcaps were on eBay listed as Oakland Pontiac Falcon Knight Wills Sainte Claire, I have no idea what they are, but are similar in design to those shown on OP, may lead to a winner. I post a pic of a 1928 Willys Falcon Knight for comparison, a lot of similar details. Since OP car was likely assembled in Canada, some minor details (such as visor, hubcaps) may differ from USA manufactured cars.

[Oldtech]

Man...those cars are very similar. I could go with either one.

 

[DLynskey]

10 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

 I post a pic of a 1928 Willys Falcon Knight for comparison, a lot of similar details. Since OP car was likely assembled in Canada, some minor details (such as visor, hubcaps) may differ from USA manufactured cars.

 

 

I photographed this 1927 Falcon Knight in 1973. There are numerous differences between the two

 

Please excuse me for deviating slightly from the identification of the car in the old photo. My conclusion is that it looks like the typical Fisher body which was used by many small companies in addition to General Motors.

 

What struck me was the differences between the 1927 Falcon Knight sedan posted by Gunsmoke and the 1927 Falcon Knight I photographed in 1973. The most obvious is the pattern of louvres on the hood panels. The first car has smooth fenders, the second has a more common patterned edge. The visors are different -- the subject car has a separate visor which matches the "mystery" car while the second has the extended roof style of the Paige submitted by Gunsmoke. The bumpers are different on the two cars above. The door handles on the first appear to have some curve while the second car has straight door handles. Look at the point where the front fender joins the running board. The first car has a gentle curve while the second there is a sharply defined change of direction. And both of the 1927 cars have bullet shaped headlights whereas the subject old photo shows drum shaped headlights.

 

Why do I enjoy indulging in such trivia? I'll probably never see another Falcon night.

 

Don

 

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by DLynskey
typo (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

Overall, the OP car has a decidedly General Motors or Fisher Body company look to it. The dual moldings, window surrounds, visor and brackets, all look GM. The fenders could be low end GM, or Durant, or Willys or a dozen others. The hubcaps however do not strike me as GM. However, after-market hubcaps were available for many common tread sizes, and came in a variety of styles for various interests. They were not generally very popular, but do show up from time to time. Of course the most common special hubcaps fit the model T Ford, because there were so many of them. I have had several after-market hubcaps for model Ts. I also, years ago, had a couple after-market replacement caps that fit the 1925 Studebaker I had then. They went with the car when I sold it.

Lodges used to offer hubcaps for their members, I have seen them for BOE, IOOF, as well as Moose Lodge.

 

DLynskey, The Falcon Knight is a neat little car! About the size of the smaller Buick standard, they were good cars built for about two years. A couple different good friends had one many years ago. I rode in it several times, mostly with the second owner I knew. It was a four door sedan in very original and nice condition. That second owner also got a parts car that he kept a few pieces of. The parts car was in really bad shape, and he sold it a short time later. 

I don't know what eventually became of that sedan. I would enjoy seeing it again.

[arcticbuicks]

Canadian Durant ?

[arcticbuicks]

Canadian pontiac  ? and they had hexigon hubcap, ..... The Regina Saskatchewan GM plant built many Pontiacs and models very different to the US starting in 1928,the old brick factory is still there 

[arcticbuicks]

it does look very canadian ,also lack of nickel plating and possibly wood only running boards,Canadian depression era cars,chevy was big on announcing 4 wheel brakes for 28 in canada with triangle on left rear fender "four wheel brakes" but im not sure pontiac had 4 wheel brakes yet here as they only had small light models,canadian pontiac were very plain and no high end straight eight type models like the US,even right up through the 50s 60s pontiac used chevy bodies with different trim and only minor body part changes from mostly all chevy parts [and other gm parts of the day],pontiac did have their own engine in canada up to 1954 being flathead 6,then used chevy small block v8 or  chevy 6 cyl sometimes different CID thru 1962, engines after that into the late 60s except for a very few were simple small block chevy. Also a paige in Canada would be a wealthy family car and likely with more nickel plating,and the house in background suits a more average car,back in those days a doctor or lawyer drove a paige type car 

[Oldtech]

Running boards would have had ribbed rubber no matter how cheap the car.  This could be several things including Star but I think visor is wrong for Star / Durant. It's a lighter car with 4 bolt rims. 2 wheel brakes.  The girls are blocking most of the identity clues so we may never know. 

[arcticbuicks]

yes ,running boards covered with rubber,i just meant some of the cheaper cars were wood instead of metal underneath.......i agree on the visor does not look durant as much as the rest of the car does,still seems to be more Pontiac

[arcticbuicks]

i think a 27 oldsmobile,like a model 30, had that style visor and 4 lug wheels and hex hub caps

[Gunsmoke]

Most Oldsmobile's and Buick's of1927 show raised area on fenders much like the Falcon Knight has and don't have the bracketed visors. Seems Pontiac (or Chevrolet?) is only matching car so far identified. 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

[arcticbuicks]

visor bracket olds model ,and four lug wheels hex caps........but fenders do not have the lip edge,but this is also american car in picture,i am just digging through my old parts books on fenders

[arcticbuicks]

i asked a friend for a Canada built olds picture,and this has the raised fender lip edge and just smooth rounded fenders, and visor brackets,Oshawa built and i think was the only Canada factory building Olds ,so i am thinking olds or pontiac for the original car picture

Edited January 3, 2023 by arcticbuicks
more info (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

[Gunsmoke]

Thanks for your sleuthing articbuicks, looks like we narrowed it down to 1927 GM product, and in view of all the Canadian variables, could be Pontiac, Oldsmobile or even Buick. I restored a 1931 Canadian made Chevrolet Coach a few years ago and was surprised at the number of small details that differed from USA production. For example, the USA production had a single brace on the front fenders while Canadian cars had 2 braces (as shown in this photo). Some suggested that the winter snow with its higher likelyhood of fender benders led to this change!

[Oldtech]

Not a Buick.

[arcticbuicks]

thats a project ........I have a set of original snow disc wheel covers for that 31.......so snow didnt get jammed in the spokes and make steering tough.......and yes....... my 28 chev CDN roadster non rumble seat..... sure is different too........can spot that its canadian from a 100 feet away from the back just by one item.

The Regina Saskatchewan plant seemed to have their own ways too with little differences even from the Oshawa plant,even small things like Regina factory only paint code colors,the GM blue was totally different than other GM factories.........the Pontiac cars were probably the most wildly  different 

Edited January 3, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

Is the engine original?  If so more pictures of the engine, both sides and of the drivetrain including differential would be helpful.

[Gunsmoke]

Larry asked "Is the engine original?  If so more pictures of the engine, both sides and of the drivetrain including differential would be helpful." Not sure what car you're referring to? If you're referring to the 1931 Chevrolet chassis, that car was restored and since sold, like many 90 year old cars it had it's share of "refurbishment", had a 1930 block and transmission, '29 head and valve cover, Tillotson carb, 1930 door handles, but was otherwise a complete car which was fun to rebuild and drive. Sold it last year "paint, interior and chrome ready" to make space for my current project.

[Gunsmoke]

Here is the 1931 Chevrolet Special Coach, Canadian built car from April 1931, and as currently finished by new owner. He does his own painting and wanted to keep costs minimum to make a nice driver, so went with black brightwork, black wire wheels etc. Monochrome body color also looks nice. For what it's worth, I understand Canadian car bodies were painted one color, although used black fenders. USA cars were typically 2 tone with upper half above belt line always black and fenders always black. The current dark blue is close to the original color on car when I stripped it for body work 10 years ago, as seen in this pic of body on it's way to shop, note the dark blue is on firewall, sides and above roof drip rail. The "Special" model was called Deluxe in USA, and in Canada included twin side-mounts, full rear bumper, cowl lights, single bulb headlight reflectors  (basic models had separate parking light in headlight), ashtrays in rear both sides, not much else different that I'm aware of. Trunk rack was an option and GM did not make trunks in '31, but aftermarket suppliers made this model trunk specifically for the Chevrolet trunk rack, it is a perfect fit. By '32 GM was offering a trunk made by an outside supplier. 

[Larry Schramm]

On 1/3/2023 at 11:11 AM, Gunsmoke said:

Thanks for your sleuthing articbuicks, looks like we narrowed it down to 1927 GM product, and in view of all the Canadian variables, could be Pontiac, Oldsmobile or even Buick. I restored a 1931 Canadian made Chevrolet Coach a few years ago and was surprised at the number of small details that differed from USA production. For example, the USA production had a single brace on the front fenders while Canadian cars had 2 braces (as shown in this photo). Some suggested that the winter snow with its higher likelyhood of fender benders led to this change!

 

This one.

[arcticbuicks]

gunsmoke......i never heard of the Canadian models just being one color ,unless maybe you are saying one model and year of certain brand ?.........generally i would say a lot of two tone, i have seen lots in these years two tone paint

[Gunsmoke]

articbuicks, I was told by someone knowledgeable on the VCCA site several years ago when I was restoring this car that for 1931, Canadian assembled Chevrolets had bodies all one color, and a half dozen colors were available. I never explored this at length as it was my plan to paint the car 2-tone anyway using the factory 2-tone specs as used on US cars. As noted above, when I stripped the red paint from my car's bodies, the original paint underneath was blue over entire body. I'm sure there are more knowledgeable 30's Chevrolet people on here (or on VCCA) who could offer expert info on this. As a low cost car, there would be extra labor/expense to go 2-tone in depression era so I could understand if they did use one color. Fenders and front side and back aprons were always black.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

interesting to explore ....I will have to hit the books and papers i have here ,and check the yard with some relics,my 28 chev roadster is all one color ,and a 30 chev i have is two tone,also the  Regina plant did some different things with paint compared to Oshawa but little information other than the different paint codes that show up......that i see anyway......I dont have much specific information that says which cars came from which plant also.possibly checking some old dealer photos too.......wouldn't show the color but should show  difference from fenders to body being a darker color?