Maybe a Ford Model T?

[Heyoka John]

Historical Society needs help with ID of automobile in center of this c.1915 photograph, Connecticut shoreline.

[HarryLime]

1915 Ford Model T

[Mark Gregush]

1915 or 1916 Ford Model T roadster with gas headlights installed. Would have been come with factory installed electric headlights. The electric lights were still kinda iffy, so people did have the old-style gas ones installed. The other Model T in the picture would be a late 1916 up (1917 model), so picture would be after the date it is indicated to be. 

[JACK M]

Cool building.

[Dandy Dave]

19 hours ago, Mark Gregush said:

1915 or 1916 Ford Model T roadster with gas headlights installed. Would have been come with factory installed electric headlights. The electric lights were still kinda iffy, so people did have the old-style gas ones installed. The other Model T in the picture would be a late 1916 up (1917 model), so picture would be after the date it is indicated to be. 

I was told Early 15's had Gas lamps, and late 15's had electric? Also the Early ones had the Nonpureil brass horn. Later ones had an electric horn. 

[wayne sheldon]

19 hours ago, Dandy Dave said:

I was told Early 15's had Gas lamps, and late 15's had electric? Also the Early ones had the Nonpureil brass horn. Later ones had an electric horn. 

 

Old "history" from faulty memories. A lot of books published in the 1940s and into the 1960s said that. But nothing in actual records or era photographs actually support that idea. It IS true that dealers would trade the electric headlamps off the car and install earlier gas headlamps occasionally for customers that weren't yet ready to accept electric headlamps as being safe or reliable. Remember, adults at that time had spent their entire lives around oil and gas lamps, no matter where they lived. And only in some areas were people used to electric lamps by then. While many people were ready to step into the future and embraced the new concept, many others wanted to stick with what was familiar.

It was a win/win for the dealer. He charged a few dollars, took in the modern electric lamps, and installed a leftover set of gas lamps along with the carbide generator or Prestolite tank. Then put the new electric headlamps on the shelf, to sell them to a past customer that wanted to upgrade their older T model to the new modern electric headlamps. Ford factory also supplied new headlamps for such upgrades.

I spend a lot of time studying era photographs. It amazes me how many model Ts from 1912 through 1914 have either electrified gas lamps, or later replacement electric lamps. There must have been thousands upon thousands of model Ts upgraded to electric headlamps!

Compared to that, very few photos show later cars with earlier gas headlamps. I have seen several, maybe a dozen or more over the years. A lot of them were overseas versions, and likely military during the Great War. The military apparently liked the more familiar and reliable gas lamps. But I have also seen typical family type model Ts, 1915 and even into 1917 or '18 with gas lamps. Just not many like that.

Another thing that confuses the issue? Is that there are a few factory photos of preproduction prototype model Ts, a few of which had gas headlamps on them. Most people do not recognize the prototype cars as such, and do not realize that the photos were taken earlier in 1914, long before the 1915 style cars were being produced.

 

The horn is a bit different complicated. The 1915 model year was really messed up due to design changes resulting in production delays. The new center-door sedans and folding top couplets began production almost on schedule, about September or October of 1914. Those cars had headlamps and sidelamps that were different than anything else. They also had electric horns! The common open style cars (touring car and runabout) however were delayed for a few months due to manufacturing problems on the new sheet metal for the new style bodies. Approximately 50 (half a hundred!) runabouts were produced in December of 1914! Touring car production didn't begin until January of 1915. Total production of 1915 style open body cars in January 1915 was about two thousand FOR THE MONTH! The Ford factories continued producing 1914 style open cars well into April of 1915 to keep up with purchase orders. 

While the "closed" car T models had electric horns by October of 1914, open style cars didn't begin getting electric horns until almost June of 1915! And even then, changeover was slow. Many open model Ts continued getting the bulb horn through July, and empirical evidence suggests even some as late as December of 1915. Although, probably most model Ts by the end of July were getting electric horns.

 

The 1915 model year was one of almost continual change for the model T. But 1912 was even worse.

[Dandy Dave]

Thanks Wayne. I purchased a 1915 Model T roadster for my wife. It has a brass horn. It has repro gas lamps on it. I guess I'll have to look for a set of electric lights with the brass ring. Dandy Dave!

[wayne sheldon]

DD, You can run with the gas lamps if you like. I have known a few people over the years that did just because they liked them that way.

If you want the correct style electric headlamps on your 1915? That can be tricky. The 1915/'16/'17 style headlamps were manufactured by a few different companies, and went through several minor changes in those years. As much research as has been done in the recent fifty years (huge amounts!), nobody has yet determined exactly which variations were used when. However, the key factor in correct headlamps for those three years is that the adjusting screw is at the  12 o'clock position over the socket/plug on the back of the headlamp bucket.

It used to be believed that a different headlamp was used in 1915, one with the socket/plug down lower on the back of the bucket, and angled downward a bit. However close examination of literally hundreds of era photographs have shown that was NOT the case! Those headlamp buckets instead apparently were used on couplets and center-door sedans along about 1918 and maybe part of 1919 (this detail is still not known for certain!). Some 1915s can still be found with those 1918 headlamps from restorations many years ago, and some people still argue the 1918 headlamps are correct for 1915 because they have read an old book. (Ain't all this detail fun!?)

At last three companies made the headlamps for those three years, and minor details varied from different production runs.

 

Earliest 1915 models produced were the center-door sedans and couplets. Most of the early versions used different headlamps. Those were a slightly larger size, with larger brass rims than the common 1915 style, and are quite rare.

 

A discussion on the "Ford fix" model T site from June of 2019

 

https://forum.modeltfordfix.com/t/j-w-b-m-company-15-16-headlamps/670

 

includes the following descriptions (from me!)

 

"Working on my '15 runabout, and sorted headlamp buckets. From the Auburn Swap Meet a week ago, I picked up another bucket. Added to the ones I already had, I now have two pair of matching early style electric headlamps. Both pair have the adjustment screw above the plug/socket. One pair (the rougher ones), has the plug/socket on the center back of the bucket, no apparent name or model stamping for the manufacturer, as some of the early electric headlamps do. The back of the buckets on this pair are rounded all the way to the socket mounting. They have no flat area around the socket like the millions of later headlamps have, not even a hint of flatness there.

The other pair, also has the adjusting screw above the plug/socket, and a slightly flattened area around the socket mount. That flattened area is less flat than most of the later headlamps. Surrounding the socket, is a circular stamping which says " J W B M CO COLO USA MODEL 520 PAT APRIL 14 1914". So, one question is who is J W B M company? Are they related to the John Brown Lamp Company that supplied Ford with lamps for many years? As far as I know, John Brown was located in Ohio, a fair distance from Colorado.

The other main question is, which pair would be most appropriate for a March '15 T? The slightly flatted and name stamped? Or the no name and fully rounded back?"

 

Royce is considered one of the top experts on model Ts of the brass era, and he personally spent many days doing research in the former Benson Ford Archives trying to sort out some of these details. My questions were never fully answered (Royce is often a man of few words). Some additional discussion was continued in the original thread, mostly about the oil sidelamps.

 

By the way, not answered in that thread? However the "J W B M CO COLO USA" eventually speculation leans toward J W Brown Company, COLumbus Ohio USA. Headlamps with that small circle stamping were apparently only used for those three years, on some cars. They are not truly rare, but are few and far between. There is considerable variation in size and depth of the stamping, and some variation in the outer curve of the bucket. I had several to mix and match in order to get a pair that really matched for my early 1915 runabout, and they were in terrible condition. A couple much nicer non-matching buckets I had I later sold to a fellow in Idaho also trying to get a matching pair.

The buckets with no name, and a fully rounded (no flat area) going all the way to the plug/socket, WITH the "twelve o'clock" top center adjusting screw, are also believed to be correct for 1915.

 

Reproduction brass rims are available for the 1915 cars. Some people (including me) use the 1926/'27 nickel plated brass rims on their 1915s. Just strip the nickel plating off, or find some with almost no plating left. They look fine outside, only the lens clips inside are somewhat different.

[1937hd45]

All these illustrations are in an early 1915 Ford Brochure

[wayne sheldon]

Note that both the runabout and the town car have gas headlamps. And that they are still the 1914 style bodies and fenders.

The couplet and sedan cars are the early versions 1915 style. They show fork mounted electric headlamps, whether that is an artistic error or a carryover from the prototype cars built earlier in 1914 is still open to debate. Canadian production DID use fork mounted electric headlamps through most of 1915 and 1916, as well as MAYBE some in 1917 production (there are a few era photos?). 

Those sales brochure pictures were usually artistically copied or enhanced photos (necessary at the time due to limited publishing technologies for low cost mass printings), and often errors by the artists would sneak in. They do still offer some look at early production. Notice the larger more bulbous headlamp bucket. Those headlamps were only used late calendar 1914 on the sedans and couplets. Total production of cars using those lamps from the factory numbers in the hundreds! (not many!) Notice also the oil sidelamps on both the sedan and couplet. They are very early production lamps used on those two body styles and very different from the majority of 1915 production. Look closely, they appear to be an earlier "spade" mounting unlike the single rear bolt mounting used a couple months later. They also have the earlier flatter font bowls that look more like the 1914 and earlier oil sidelamp font bowls. The oil sidelamps went through several variations between the early spade mounted sidelamps and the common version that became standard issue later in calendar 1915. A lot of research has been done on them, factory and other era photos tell a lot. Ford records on those lamp changes were not kept up as the changes were being made so quickly across about six months. Only earliest production 1915 style Ford cars got the spade mount oil lamps. Those lamps themselves are not rare! The few companies that manufactured these lamps for Ford also used the same dies and jigs to make lamps for after-market sales. The spade lamps as used by Ford for only about a month (if that!) were then sold for a few years as replacements for earlier cars that had spade mounted sidelamps.

The sidelamps evolved during sedan and couplet production in late calendar 1914, moving to the single rear bolt mounting and eventually the common size bezel/rim and lens in January of 1915. January and maybe much of February open car production of the 1915 style had an interesting crossover side and tail lamp. Except for the font bowl which still looked like the 1914 style (although the size and fit was different!), the lamp "looked" like the common later 1915 brass trimmed oil lamps. However, EVERY PIECE IN IT except for the bezel/rim and lens was completely different! The bezel itself is slightly different, but will interchange with the later ones. NOTHING else in the lamp will do a straight interchange. Even the top cap, a bit taller/fatter visually different, has a different size threaded stud to mount into the chimney! The chimney, the main body, burner, all very different. 

 

I have several times over the years asked better experts than I about a lot of these changes. Apparently, actual timeline for most of these changes is not known. There is still considerable debate about which versions of lamps are most correct for cars of a given time of manufacture. If someone were able to sort most of it out? A book could be written on the subject of just the lamps for 1914 through 1916 model T Fords.

[Dandy Dave]

The 1915 T Runabout I bought for her is not a perfect car. I bought it for her to learn about these cars and to possibly tour with it someday. Or just have fun running it around the neighborhood. It has a 1919 engine which really does not matter to me. It has the later after January cowl. The mounting holes for the horn is under the hood and a stud coming out of the fake drivers door where the bulb mounts, so I know a brass bulb horn is correct. I'll have to get some photos of it and post it here later. She did not want the car all over social media so no FB in it's future unless she decides to put it out there herself. I'll start another thread as we hijacked this one. Interesting info on all the lights and stuff. Glad to hear almost any lights of the era will be OK. I did not buy the car for it to be judged anyway. You T guys will have a field day picking this one apart. 🤣😂🙃 It won't hurt my feeling because I already know what it is. As long as she has fun with it, nothing else matters. 😁 😘🥰 

[wayne sheldon]

Model T people are funny. About 2/3 of them are very easy-going, just want to enjoy their cars as they is and think everybody else should do the same. (Frankly, I think for the most part they are right!)  Even the HCCA with their strict rules is fairly lax when it comes to enforcing them (don't tell tooo many people).

On the other hand, the evolution of all those little pieces is part of the history! (I find that part fascinating!) Certainly, it is good for the hobby to have room for both extremes.

My 1915 runabout is an odd mix. Family issues forced me to sell all my good cars over several years some years back. The cars I had intended to keep and enjoy for the rest of my life all went away. All I had left was a bunch of project piles I had acquired that weren't worth enough to be worth the trouble to try to sell them. Among the piles of junk were a lot of 1912 through late 1910s model T parts, basically most of three or four late brass era model Ts, some really correct era pieces, some needing repair. I began piecing together two cars, one a 1913, the other the 1915 runabout. I decided to concentrate on the 1915 because it had the most era correct pieces, and decided to put together a runabout body as the easiest and least amount of paint, wood, and upholstery.

I was talking with a good friend one day, and he asked if I had the body yet. I said not yet, and he replied "Have I got a deal for you!" Turned out, I had some Studebaker parts he wanted, and he had the rough and slightly butchered remains of an original date coded February 1915 runabout body! So we made a trade.

So, what I have is NOT an intact survivor! However, the body IS a genuine early 1915 style runabout. Somewhere, someone is driving around on my car's original chassis with probably a later body used because it was in nicer condition than the original body was. That was a common practice with rough brass era cars back in the 1950s and 1960s. The bodies looked enough alike, and most people didn't know the difference.

My car also has original era fenders, side aprons (repos are NOT correct!), and hood, all in the early 1915 style. Nearly all the chassis is pre 1916 manufacture. So it may not be a intact survivor? But it will have more genuine late brass era T parts than most model Ts on HCCA tours!

If my family can ever let me have the time to work on it? I think I can be happy with it.