1914 Chandler Ignition Timing

[29 Chandler]

I am officially stumped. A few weeks ago I took out the water pump to have it rebuilt, new impeller and threaded rod for the shaft to rotate in. The water pump drives the Bosch DU6 magneto. I failed to keep the magneto in proper alignment with the pump and now I have to get it back in line.

 

The water pump is driven off a timing chain in the front of the engine. There is a shaft going through the water pump that drives the mag. I have done the following to try and get the mag hooked up to the water pump shaft. BTW there is no adjustable coupling between the two, you can only install it 180' in either direction.

 

To find TDC for the #1 cylinder I did the following:

• Since this is an L head engine and has a primer cup above each cylinder I opened each cup so the engine could be turned easily by the hand crank.
• Next I put a balloon (actually a severed middle finger from a glove) over the #1 primer cup so I could find when it was on the compression stroke. As I cranked the engine through its revolutions I could see when the balloon filled with air.
• This lined up nicely with a timing mark on the fan pulley that the previous owner put there.
• I then tuned the armature of the mag until the brush was lined up with the #1 terminal.
• I re-secured the water pump shaft to the mag to keep it all aligned.
• I then hand cranked the engine three more times, noting when the #1 cylinder was at TDC, the mark on the pulley was straight up, and the brush on the mag was at #1 terminal.

 

At this point I closed all of the primer cups and secured the ignition wires back to the mag. and began my normal starting procedure. Not starting. I am getting spark, but it does not sound like it is happening at the right time. This was a smooth running engine before I took the water pump out. Did I follow the correct procedure to find TDC and set the mag? Did I miss something?

 

Unfortunately there is no shop manual for this car and I am the only one with a running example. I used a 1917 Dykes manual as my guide to understand the Mag.

 

Here's a picture of the engine for a reference:

 

[TerryB]

Is there a way to tell when spark at #1 plug is happening in reference to your TDC timing mark?  

[29 Chandler]

1 minute ago, TerryB said:

Is there a way to tell when spark at #1 plug is happening in reference to your TDC timing mark?  

I used the position of the brush on the mag to determine that. It is now lined up to provide spark for #1 when the cylinder is on the compression stroke 

[Mark Shaw]

Adjust for full retard.  Put #1 at TDC (both valves closed).  Align mag contact with #1 plug.  Connect the mag coupling holding alignment.

Start the engine.

Timing Your Magneto Ignition

If you do major engine work, or just want to clean and paint your engine, chances are you have to remove the magneto and spark plug wires. And, you probably dread when you reach the point where you have to put it all back together and make it run. You might try carefully making a diagram of the wires, tape the magneto in the position it comes off, and be careful not to turn the engine over while you have these components off.  But after the cleanup and painting is done and it is time to put the magneto back on and start it up, you usually find that the tape didn't stick too well and your diagram is long gone. You could bolt it on as near as you can remember and hook up the wires according to the diagram (if you can find it). But the best you can usually do is crank till you have massive blisters and all you can get is an occasional pop or sputter.  Sound familiar?  You won't usually have the luxury of keeping the components aligned correctly.  Magneto setup is a simple process that every old car guy should understand.

Rough Timing

Aligning the Cap

There is a gear on the magneto shaft that drives a gear on the rotor. These gears must mesh at the proper point. On some magnetos, there are 2 teeth with bevels on the magneto side and a tooth with a timing mark on the cap side. The marked tooth meshes in between the bevel teeth. The intent of this process (in case all the marks are gone), is to get the points to open and close at the correct times to provide voltage out to the plug wires. Knowing this, it is possible to guess the meshing in the case of missing markings.

Lining up the Engine

The engine should be at the top of the compression stroke on the number 1 piston. There were many ways that this can be marked on engines, and these timing marks are often missing. There are a couple of sure-fire ways to know. Make a tool using small fittings with the same thread as the spark plug on one side and a nipple for a hose on the other side (These are commonly made for compression testers). With this screwed in to the number 1 spark plug hole, attach a hose to the other side, & crank the engine until air begins to rush out the hose (put a balloon on the end of the hose if you want to get some visual feedback). When the air starts coming out, it means you are headed into the compression stroke. Slowly continue turning the engine until the number 1 piston reaches its highest point.  (You can use a long thin plastic rod or straw to feel & see how high the piston is.

Bolting on the Magneto

To get your magneto to mesh to the engine, you must turn the magneto (in the direction it was designed to operate in) until the rotor is positioned over the number 1 plug wire terminal. When positioned correctly, the dogs or slots on the mag should line up with the corresponding dogs or slots on the engine and slide right in. Loosely bolt on the magneto so it can still be turned while being held in place. Connect a grounding wire or kill switch in the off position to prevent the engine from starting unexpectedly during the final timing.

Plug Wires

The plug wires should be connected in the order specified in your manual (Note: if you are not using what your manual, hook the number 1 wire to the cap terminal that you timed to be number 1). The firing order and direction of magneto rotation are the keys to hooking up the rest of the wires. Some engines use 1-2-4-3, others use 1-3-4-2. If no engine manual is available, you can determine the firing order by watching the order in which the intake valves open (the rocker arm will go down when the valve opens). Determining the firing order this way will work for modified engines.

Final Timing

At this stage, you have rough timing but don't try to start it this way. Make sure the magneto is grounded or you might just break your arm or worse. In this state the engine can backfire and run pretty ragged. If you are using a hand-crank, it can furiously spin backward and seriously injure you.

To get that final timing, rotate the body of the magneto counterclockwise (Note: whether counterclockwise or clockwise will depend on the rotational direction your magneto is designed for, the rotation you want here is the opposite of the normal rotation). Slowly turn the engine through its strokes till you have the number 1 piston at the top of its compression stroke again. Now gently rotate the magneto clockwise until you hear the pronounced click of the impulse coupler. This indicates that the magneto is right at the point where it will fire the number one piston. Tighten up the bolts, remove your temporary safety ground wire (if you put one on) and try starting the engine.

This is the point where, if you are hand-cranking the engine, you must follow hand-cranking safety precautions.  Since you are trying to start an untested engine, there are several factors involving timing that can cause your engine to backfire, making this the most dangerous time for hand-cranking.

After this process is complete, it is up to you to figure out if any further minor adjustments will help your engine run at speed. In general, your timing should be very close at this point.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2022 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[29 Chandler]

Just now, Mark Shaw said:

Adjust for full retard.  Put #1 at TDC (both valves closed).  Align mag contact with #1 plug.  Connect the mag coupling holding alignment.

Start the engine.

Full retard is a small adjustment on my mag and not enough to align the mag to the water pump. I can only go 180 degrees in either direction and right now it is lined up just before #1

[Mark Shaw]

54 minutes ago, 29 Chandler said:

The water pump is driven off a timing chain in the front of the engine.

When you removed the pump, did that include removal of the timing gear?

[TerryB]

30 minutes ago, 29 Chandler said:

I used the position of the brush on the mag to determine that. It is now lined up to provide spark for #1 when the cylinder is on the compression stroke 

I was thinking is there a way to physically see when the spark happens with respect to TDC.  This is just thinking out loud as I never had anything that didn’t get timed from points opening.  When you say the spark was happening at a point other than TDC I was wondering how you can physically see that. Can a timing light detect that?  I can’t offer much except some support for your efforts.

[29 Chandler]

22 minutes ago, Mark Shaw said:

When you removed the pump, did that include removal of the timing gear?

No, the gears and timing chain did not move.

[29 Chandler]

12 minutes ago, TerryB said:

I was thinking is there a way to physically see when the spark happens with respect to TDC.  This is just thinking out loud as I never had anything that didn’t get timed from points opening.  When you say the spark was happening at a point other than TDC I was wondering how you can physically see that. Can a timing light detect that?  I can’t offer much except some support for your efforts.

I’ll enlist my wife’s help tomorrow to confirm we are actually getting a spark at #1 when I think we are. 
I have never tried my timing light on this car. Maybe I will do that after I get it running.

[29 Chandler]

1 hour ago, Mark Shaw said:

Adjust for full retard.  Put #1 at TDC (both valves closed).  Align mag contact with #1 plug.  Connect the mag coupling holding alignment.

Start the engine.

Timing Your Magneto Ignition

If you do major engine work, or just want to clean and paint your engine, chances are you have to remove the magneto and spark plug wires. And, you probably dread when you reach the point where you have to put it all back together and make it run. You might try carefully making a diagram of the wires, tape the magneto in the position it comes off, and be careful not to turn the engine over while you have these components off.  But after the cleanup and painting is done and it is time to put the magneto back on and start it up, you usually find that the tape didn't stick too well and your diagram is long gone. You could bolt it on as near as you can remember and hook up the wires according to the diagram (if you can find it). But the best you can usually do is crank till you have massive blisters and all you can get is an occasional pop or sputter.  Sound familiar?  You won't usually have the luxury of keeping the components aligned correctly.  Magneto setup is a simple process that every old car guy should understand.

Rough Timing

Aligning the Cap

There is a gear on the magneto shaft that drives a gear on the rotor. These gears must mesh at the proper point. On some magnetos, there are 2 teeth with bevels on the magneto side and a tooth with a timing mark on the cap side. The marked tooth meshes in between the bevel teeth. The intent of this process (in case all the marks are gone), is to get the points to open and close at the correct times to provide voltage out to the plug wires. Knowing this, it is possible to guess the meshing in the case of missing markings.

Lining up the Engine

The engine should be at the top of the compression stroke on the number 1 piston. There were many ways that this can be marked on engines, and these timing marks are often missing. There are a couple of sure-fire ways to know. Make a tool using small fittings with the same thread as the spark plug on one side and a nipple for a hose on the other side (These are commonly made for compression testers). With this screwed in to the number 1 spark plug hole, attach a hose to the other side, & crank the engine until air begins to rush out the hose (put a balloon on the end of the hose if you want to get some visual feedback). When the air starts coming out, it means you are headed into the compression stroke. Slowly continue turning the engine until the number 1 piston reaches its highest point.  (You can use a long thin plastic rod or straw to feel & see how high the piston is.

Bolting on the Magneto

To get your magneto to mesh to the engine, you must turn the magneto (in the direction it was designed to operate in) until the rotor is positioned over the number 1 plug wire terminal. When positioned correctly, the dogs or slots on the mag should line up with the corresponding dogs or slots on the engine and slide right in. Loosely bolt on the magneto so it can still be turned while being held in place. Connect a grounding wire or kill switch in the off position to prevent the engine from starting unexpectedly during the final timing.

Plug Wires

The plug wires should be connected in the order specified in your manual (Note: if you are not using what your manual, hook the number 1 wire to the cap terminal that you timed to be number 1). The firing order and direction of magneto rotation are the keys to hooking up the rest of the wires. Some engines use 1-2-4-3, others use 1-3-4-2. If no engine manual is available, you can determine the firing order by watching the order in which the intake valves open (the rocker arm will go down when the valve opens). Determining the firing order this way will work for modified engines.

Final Timing

At this stage, you have rough timing but don't try to start it this way. Make sure the magneto is grounded or you might just break your arm or worse. In this state the engine can backfire and run pretty ragged. If you are using a hand-crank, it can furiously spin backward and seriously injure you.

To get that final timing, rotate the body of the magneto counterclockwise (Note: whether counterclockwise or clockwise will depend on the rotational direction your magneto is designed for, the rotation you want here is the opposite of the normal rotation). Slowly turn the engine through its strokes till you have the number 1 piston at the top of its compression stroke again. Now gently rotate the magneto clockwise until you hear the pronounced click of the impulse coupler. This indicates that the magneto is right at the point where it will fire the number one piston. Tighten up the bolts, remove your temporary safety ground wire (if you put one on) and try starting the engine.

This is the point where, if you are hand-cranking the engine, you must follow hand-cranking safety precautions.  Since you are trying to start an untested engine, there are several factors involving timing that can cause your engine to backfire, making this the most dangerous time for hand-cranking.

After this process is complete, it is up to you to figure out if any further minor adjustments will help your engine run at speed. In general, your timing should be very close at this point.

 

 

Mark thank you for sharing this. It is a much clearer explanation than what I found in Dykes though in the end ultimately the same one info.

 

 Am going to give the battery a chance to recharge on the trickle charger and the gas in the updraft carb to a chance to clear overnight before I give it another shot.

 

Based on all your feedback so far I may have the magneto aligned correctly but am now faced with a flooded engine after all the failed attempts to align the mag today. 
 

 

[29 Chandler]

Well the morning started out cool and optimistic. I was really hoping a freshly charged battery would be the answer. No luck. With my wife hand cranking the engine we quickly confirmed #1 was getting a nice healthy spark, but based on the way the engine sounded the spark was coming at the wrong time.

 

Time to take the magneto out and look at it on the workbench. In better light and with more access I quickly found another white mark where the rotor lines up to fire on #1, and another mark showing full retard. All this made sense and was what I was hoping to see. Now with the rotor lined up with #1 the coupling for the water pump is nearly 90 degrees off!

 

This is the part that I can not explain. Just pulling the water pump out should not change the alignment of the magneto. To this point I have not had the Magento out of the car and never dared to fiddle with its adjustment. The only thing I could do now was to pull the coupler off the mag and rotate it to mesh with the water pump. Normally the coupler would be keyed to the tapered shaft of the magneto. On mine the key was removed and a set screw was installed. I would have expected to see witness marks on the shaft where the set screw skidded across the shaft, but found just one small detent where the set screw had resided for years.

 

In any case I followed the instructions Mark posted above and got the timing in the proper neighborhood. Put it all back together and was able to start the engine. It ran a short time and then died. My timing was still too far out. Back out came the magneto and a little more advance dialed in. Now the engine jumps to life and ran much better. For the first time in my ownership the advance/retard lever on the steering wheel actually does something. Finally I must be in the proper range. 

 

So we took the car out to see how it ran. It has all the signs of too much advance now. Runs too hot and has very little power. By now the temperature here in Southern California is hot and I'm hot. Car is back in the garage cooling off. I'll hook up my timing light and make a mark to show where I am and then pull the mag out again and retard it a bit. 

 

I am really hoping when this is all done the car will surprise me and run better than it ever has for us. With no other similar cars to compare against its a little hard to know when I have reached maximum performance. I know one thing just sitting behind the wheel its easy to tell when the car is happy and when it's not.

 

More to come...

[DFeeney]

I have been following your progress and it sounds like you are on the edge of getting  the timing dialed in.  This is how a person becomes a expert,  Take it apart and then make corrections to put it back together.  I have learned quite a bit myself by following different post.  Life is Good,  Don

[29 Chandler]

I think I have dialed in the timing. Just by following these steps:

• Bring #1 to TDC
• remove Magneto from car holding the position of the coupler
• back off the set screw holding the coupler to the shaft of the magneto and free up the coupler
• put the magneto back in the car and re-attach the coupler to the drive shaft from the water pump
• line up the marks on the magneto so the rotor is ready to fire on #1
• Tighten set screw and check marks again
• pull magneto out again to re-tighten nut on magneto shaft
• put back in car and check marks again
• re-attach everything

After starting the car up it immediately sounded much happier. I then warmed it up and attached my timing light and made some new marks where full advance and full retard are on the back side of the timing cover. There is now a real difference in how the engine runs and sounds between full advance and full retard. Since I have owned the car I could hardly notice a difference in adjusting the spark. 

 

Too late and too much work unfortunately to take it for a test drive today. If its still running poorly I doubt it's due to timing now.

 

Here's a picture of the timing marks on the mag. I now have the two white marks lined up with TDC. The black mark notes full retard.

[29 Chandler]

Here's a short video of it running tonight:

1914 Chandler Light Weight Six

Edited April 26, 2022 by 29 Chandler (see edit history)

[29 Chandler]

My car is retarded! At least that what the Dykes manual says...

 

Apparently when setting the timing on this magneto you have to set the timing 1st at TDC and then rotate the armature until the points just open. That is what the black mark is in the photo above. With this now set the engine ran very well. In fact for the first time I was able to see the car accelerate simply by advancing the spark lever. Its much better now. probably have a bit of fine tuning to dial it in just right but now I have a much clearer understanding how to set the timing.

 

Thanks for following along as I learn more about how my brass era car works.

[29 Chandler]

Timing is Everything!

 

Dialed in the timing just a bit more and the difference is remarkable. For those of you doing this on your car for the first time, my advise is to get it right. The results will be worth it and your engine will reward you. I went through several attempts to make it just right now we are both happy.

[Flivverking]

Wow !  I'm disdressed,depressed and then impressed here!

 I love those ,who know the answers.

Your awesome!