Confessions of a body shop owner: An Editorial

[Guest]

Confessions of a body shop owner.

"Anybody know of a good body shop in (enter your city name here)?", "How do I get my body shop to work on my car?", "My car is being held for ransom!", or just simply "Body shop Blues". I'm sure you have all seen topics similar to these posted. Gentlemen, my name is MARTINSR and I was one of those dirty rotten bastards that would keep your car ten times longer than I promised.

For the guy not doing his own body work or at least not all of it, he is at the mercy of the body shop. It is not a nice position to be in. In fact, it can go down as one of the low points in your life. I have seen horror stories that would make your hair stand on end. A long time customer of mine (he owned about 60 cars and usually had a few in shops around the area at all times) had a car that was held as evidence in a murder. Yep, it had blood splattered on it when one of the shops owners killed the other with a baseball bat!

The following is my generalization of restoration shops that I have owned, seen or worked at. There are exceptions to the rule. Please don't beat me up if I have rolled your shop into the mix when you are an exception. But, if you do see yourself, I suggest you get down to your neighborhood junior college and take a course or two in business. One of the great myths is that we each think our business is so unique, we can't learn from a "regular" business class. Well after much instruction and exposure to the business side of things I can tell you, business is BUSINESS. Whether you are running a liqueur store, a cat house, or a body shop, they are all exactly the same. Sales are SALES, period.

So, we can agree a body shop is a business, being a good body man does not make you a good businessman. Restoration shops are usually owned by good body men, not good businessmen. It is very hard to make money doing restoration work, it is very easy to make money doing regular collision work. The businessman makes his money doing collision work and tells all the customers with restoration work to go to Joe's Body shop down the street, he does the restorations. Joe loves doing what he is doing, but seldom makes much money. He is an artist, a true master at his craft. Joe sees things at what they can "become", not what they "are". When Joe sees a car he doesn't see the time it will take to make it the show winner he knows it will be, he only sees it as the show winner. I really don't believe he means to lie to you when he says it will be done in a month, he is looking at through rose colored glasses, his vision is altered. Like a woman forgets the pain of giving birth, so does Joe when he gazes upon the beautiful car he has carried for nine months (or longer). And when the next rust bucket rolls in, he has forgotten about the hundreds of hours needed, he only sees a luscious rose garden.

Like I said few make a living at restoration or hot rod work. The biggies that you have heard of like Roy Brizio or Boyd Codington all make money with other ventures, not the rod shop. The first time I visited Brizios shop this was very apparent. The rod shop is about 5000 square feet sitting in the middle of a 50,000 square foot building. The rest of the building is Brizios manufacturing business. It is all non auto related by the way. The rod shop is a hobby, I don't doubt for a second he makes money, but it is a hobby none the less.

So when you go looking for a shop to do your car you have to remember this, you are most likely going to be dealing with an artist. If you think the business end of it is going to go smooth, think again. If you build yourself up and believe everything, you are in for a BIG let down. If you set yourself up for less than that you will be much better off. I suggest getting ready for MUCH, MUCH less and then you will be happy when it only takes five months instead of the ten you got ready for. If he said one month and that is what you are planning, by the time five months rolls around you are ready to kill someone.

These are HUGE generalizations but I have found a few signs that may help you in picking out a shop. If nothing else they will help you understand who you are dealing with.

1. If there is more than one car sitting in the shop covered with dust, this may be a bad sign. If you have been around body shops much you know that dust build up is like the rings in a tree, you can tell by the layers and colors how many YEARS it has been sitting. If there is a car that is being used for storage of misc. boxes and things, bad sign. My brother used to joke that I should bolt a vise on the fender of the car, at least I could get some use out of it! Coyly ask "Cool car, is that yours?" if he says "Naw, it's a customers", BAD SIGN. If there are ten stalls in the shop and six have dust covered cars in them, RUN. I shouldn't have to tell you this one, but if there are guys hanging around with beers in their hands, RUN.

2. How many stalls does he have? I have found that the real restoration/rod shops seem to have only room to have three or four cars at a time. If you only had room to work on three cars, you are going to be damn certain they get out so you can have room for the next. One of the most successful custom shops I have ever seen was a little four stall shop in Pittsburgh California. It is the famous (well at least on the west coast) DeRosa and son Customs. Frank has been around since the fifties making show winning cars. He and his son Frank Jr. do the same today and do it FAST. They run a neat, little and clean shop. If you have seen the 2001 DuPont calendar they did the "Cadster". It was only in the shop for a few weeks. By the way, it doesn't have DuPont primers on it like the calendar says, Martin Senour primer was used.

3. Does he look at your car like they do at the McPaint shops, you know, all jobs all colors the same price? If he doesn't take a good long look at the car taking notes, he has no clue what he is doing. He is looking at the car with those rose colored glasses. Every single panel should be examined and noted for the amount of hours needed. If he just looks over the car without doing this he is surely going to be WAY off. If he is way off on how much he is charging you, what incentive does he have to work on it?

So let's say you have a shop you would like to bring it to, you really need to case the joint. Turn into a stalker and keep an eye on the shop. You know for months that you are going to need a body shop. Watch the shops for months. Drive by during business hours and see if they are actually open. Many of these guys (remember they are not good businessmen) take their open sign as sort of a guide line. If it says 8:00 to 5:00 it is more like 9:15 to 2:00 then 4:25 to 7:00, they can't get your car done like that. See if any cars leave. If you go by there and see the same cars sitting there and many little jobs going in and out, BAD SIGN. I have to tell you, those little money making collision jobs are dang hard to turn away. If I had a million hour job sitting there and it was the 28th of the month I am going to set it aside for the $800.00 job I can do in two days to pay the rent.

If they don't allow you to walk around and check the place out, be wary. Look at the paint dept, does he have a booth? Is there junk and open cans all over? Is there many different brands of paint? This is usually not a good sign, he buys anything he can get his hands on. This is many times the sign of a "junior chemist", they guy that mixes products and doesn't follow tech sheets.

If you have decided that this is the shop you want to go to, help the poor guy. You "suggest" to him how you want to go about the money part. This is the ONLY way you should do it believe me. Don't give him a deposit and leave the car. This is darn near a guarantee that your car will be sitting for weeks while he uses that money to buy parts for a high profit collision job or simply pay a long standing bill. Which then leaves your car sitting there with no incentive to work on it.

Here is what you need to do. Tell him that you want to do only ONE of the things on your car, at a time. You want to get a price for all of them maybe so you know what it is headed, but do only one at a time. You will pay him for one step at a time. Not because you don't trust him, but because YOU are bad with money and that YOU don't want to leave him hanging after the car is done with no money to pick it up.

This way it is more like he is in control and made the decision. Then you negotiate the time it will take for each step. Let's say you have patch panels to do on the front fenders. You agree that he will have them done at the end of the week, and that they will cost $200.00. He has something to work for, he knows he will get the money and he actually does it. You go see him on Friday see the work done and give him the $200.00. Then you pick another thing to do. Just as if you were doing these things at home, break them down into bite sized pieces so he can swallow them. If you go in there and find that he hasn't done it or he has done poor work, you can then say "I am sorry to yank your chain, I don't have any more money, I just lost my job" and take the car, no body owes a thing. If he does not want to do this, you really need to start rethinking your choice of a shop. Either this or variation of this should be fine with him. If it is not, something is wrong.

If he really wanted to make money he would be doing this. The first restoration job I ever did where I really felt I made money was done just this way. It was a little '58 Bug eye Sprite. I had decided that something had to be done or I would fall into the same trap as before with a car sitting forever. One of the first shops I ever worked at was a full on restoration shop. It broke the rule and was pretty big, with four full time employees. Every car had a time card assigned to it. When you worked on the car, you punched in. Then each month (these were HUGE frame off restorations on 30's and 40's vintage Fords) the owner would receive a bill with the times worked. If they couldn't pay, the car left, period. The guy made money and I finally got smart (after about 12 years in business) and followed his lead. I put a sign on this Bug Eye and would post the hours I spent on it. I told the guy to come by each week. Now, when the guy came in and saw only two hours were spent, he was not very happy. That was a heck of an incentive for me right there I will tell you that! It worked great, I actually got paid for every minute I worked, unlike most restoration projects. And he actually got the car back in close to what I said. It was still late, but not ten times as late as I had done before.

Another thing I highly recommend is to take plenty of photos of the car, really detailed photos. When you drop the car off leave him a copy of them. Letting him know you have a copy. Not threatening like "I am doing this so I can prove you lied to me" more like "I can't wait to see how different it is and you can have these before shots to show future customers". Which is true, it is just not the only reason you are doing it. If he is doing a full on restoration for you, I HIGHLY recommend parts like chrome and interior be taken home after he removes them so they don't get stolen or damaged. You need to have a very close relationship with the shop, if these visits make the guy edgy, you really need to find another shop.

If you have the attitude that you are genuinely interested in how this work is done, not how he will do YOUR car, but just in general. You will find that he will be much more likely to "show off" his talents than if you go in there like an untrusting customer.

Along with these photos you want a VERY detailed work order. Run like the wind if he has no work order. Still run if he has a work order that says "fix dents and rust" as the repairs being done. RUN, I say. You need to have a fully detailed work order, not for legal reasons (wink, wink) but for your own records to show the wife where all the money went. The "wife" is a great way to get things done. You need to come look to see what is done because the wife wants to see. Bring her in there, she has an excuse, she knows nothing right? So you bring her in to see what magic this guy is doing to your car so she can understand why it costs so much. Bring a friend when you drop the car off, be sure he hears everything that is said. Let him or her help you make the decision on leaving it there. Sometimes YOU too can be looking through rose colored glasses. If someone else says they have a bad feeling, LISTEN to them.

There are few things that can compare with returning to a shop to find the place is locked tight and the mail is piling up on the floor where the carrier has dropped it through the slot. I have seen it, it really happens. The good news is it is rare, just take your time and find a shop where you feel comfortable.

[Guest John Chapman]

MartinSR,

Great post. Good to see you back.

Cheers,

John

[Centurion]

MartinSR, this seems like excellent advice. You've done a great job of observing and describing the differences among restoration shops. Yep, I'll certainly avoid the one that is filled with customers' cars that have been sitting there for years. The guy is very talented in restoration work, but it's funny how everyone who knows him avoids taking their cars to him.

[Guest]

I read your unabridged post, and understand what you are saying, but if the auto body guy is going to screw you, he's going to fine away.

I learned that the hard way, that any fool can have a '50's car in his shop, and presto, he is an auto restorer.....

Later, to find out that they are like you said, a "fender bender" repair shop and towing service. Some, five visits to small claims court, each visit the judge dismissed the case because the claim was to "murky", and I'm not a very good Malock! Never the less, I did waste a great deal of his time and his lawyer! Hell, it was only for $750 dollars worth of work. I figured it as cheap theater. The Judge did like seeing the '50 Buick parked on the curb in from of his couth house though!

You point about prodding the auto body guy along, or pay as you go, sounds like a good way to "[censored] them off" quickly. If your at that point, I would think you would do better to cut your losses and get you car out of there before they start charging you an over night storage fee.

I'm currently redoing all my windows, channel, and felt, myself and I can see how a job can gain "mission creep". There is always something else you need. mine is the vent regulator! Notice the '27 Buick needs paint, but they see me coming at start quoting that $8,000 paint job number around. I think I'm going to prep it myself.

So, right now I have another car in a restoration shop, and I'm trying something different. I paid the whole thing up front, and got it in writing. So, let's see how I make out. I was told yesterday the car would be done by the end of next month. That will make it six months.....

may fortune favor the foolish!

[old-tank]

Welcome back! And thanks for sharing with us again. I have been keeping up with you at V8Buick.com. Maybe if they put in a General forum over there for those of us with earlier Buicks we can all leave Peter and all of his rules behind.

Willie

[Bill Stoneberg]

MartinSR, I wished I would have known this advice a long time ago.

Good post, thanks for sharing.

Tommy, I have tried your way and its been three years now.....

[Smartin]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Welcome back! And thanks for sharing with us again. I have been keeping up with you at V8Buick.com. Maybe if they put in a General forum over there for those of us with earlier Buicks we can all leave Peter and all of his rules behind.

Willie </div></div>

Willie, you wish is granted. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

http://www.v8buick.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=76

Hope this goes well. Tell all your friends!

[Guest 70 Electra]

Ditto. Great advice and well written. You should send that in to Old Cars Weekly. They are always looking for reader contributions, and your comments would be helpful to all hobbyists.

[NTX5467]

Very good comments, MARTINSR!

From my observations over the years, what constitutes "restoration" can be a VERY wide definition and somewhat variable with the customer and shop owner. When "restorations" became somewhat popular, I saw many older car owners mention "restoration" instead of "getting it fixed up some". To these people, it meant a new coat of paint, new tires, some upholstery work, and maybe a tune up (all of which would or would not be to original factory specs or configuration). If they happended into a person's shop that had a history of doing good restorations, they inquired about getting their car restored and left with a strong case of sticker shock--at which time they learned that a full restoration on their vehicle was not cost effective or was much more involved than they ever suspected.

Therefore, when anyone goes into a shop to get a restoration process initiated or inquired about, THEY need to have an idea of what they want to get done before the shop owner can give them any kind of estimate. THEY also need to have an idea that it's not the same thing as a collision repair their insurance company might pay for on a modern vehicle too. Similarly, the SHOP OWNER should make a check list and notes on the condition of the vehicle and what (if any) parts are to be replaced and who will get them (and in what time frame). This procedure can take some time for both parties, but can make things much easier as things progress.

If some additional parts are identified during the initial walk around (which the owner was not aware of needing attention), those should be figured into the mix too rather than having surprises and delays later on.

It should also be determined in what condition the vehicle will be presented to the shop in. For example, if the owner removes some interior/exterior trim from the vehicle, it can save labor costs at the shop. Some might desire to bring the vehicle to the shop with much of the sheet metal prep/priming done, BUT if the color coats bring out imperfections in the body work, it was wasted effort and the shop owner (hopefully) will notify the owner if he finds something wrong before progressing with the full paint job. Hopefully, the chemistry in the products used by the car owner will properly link with the products used in the final paint coats too.

Hopefully, the shop owner and his employees will have some expertise and knowledge with the vehicle or brand of vehicle you have to be restored. Many good restoration shops have track records which are verifiable and they do not mind the owners coming around. Plus, they tend to take pride in their progress and what the outcome will be. It SHOULD be a mutually friendly process, from what I've seen.

Many car owners desire a "one stop" situation where the shop owner takes care of the mechanical and body repairs himself. This can be a big source of problems, unfortunately, and added expense, and added time. If the shop owner is a good business person and a good scheduler, things can happen pretty close to schedule and keep cost overruns to a minimum. Just like building a house, you can let the contractor handle everything or you can put limits on what the contractor will do and what you will do -- and when -- and when payments will be made.

As mentioned, many shop owners can be very good artisans and not too good business operators. I've seen some regular shops that tried to take in custom or restoration work which went broke because they didn't have sufficient "other" cash flow to pay their bills. Not to mention owners who were frustrated with additional requests for serial payments as things progressed and their estimate was exceeded for whatever reasons.

I've also seen a case where a "running, driving" collectible muscle car was taken to a shop for restoration and the time card for the vehicle soon ran the labor costs well past the initial estimate. This was at a reputed reputable shop too, but when he had two employees working on the car, he charged for both employees being on that job (employees that probably were pair hourly).

If the car is going to compete in a national marque show event, it needs to be restored to THAT level and not a perceived level of correctness by the owner. Having a shop that is knowledgeable of the particular vehicle is a must for this sort of thing. One that understands the various paint inspection markings and who will take the time to photograph them and reproduce them as the vehicle is restored is a definite plus. To the knowledgeable, this is the mark of an accurate restoration instead of just a "pretty" restoration and can ultimately affect the value of the vehicle.

So, the owner needs to have a good idea of what they want done. Many times, what they want is within the realm of a high quality body shop that will do what I term "at least OEM spec work". The car owner needs to understand the sequence of which items need to be done first and if other repair shops need to do them rather than the restoration shop (i.e., rebuilding the engine, transmission, rear axle, suspension; upholstery; vinyl top; carpeting and underlayment). It might increase the time expenditure/investment of the car owner to shop for reputable shops for each of these functions, but by networking with others in the car hobby in their locale, their potential list can be shortened somewhat.

Similarly, the car owner needs to procure as many of the parts needed for the restoration as they can well in advance of when the actual work is initiated. Things like correctness for the model of vehicle can be verified in a non-critical time frame this way as can condition. Many times, a used part will need to be refurbished prior to installation. Getting these things out of the way BEFORE work begins can save time and frustration later.

All businesses need a certain amount of positive cash flow and profits to stay alive. Most body shop facilities are "production" facilities but that does not mean they all do quickie work either. Similarly, there can be restoration shops that keep their work moving and can support enough good people working for them as a result just as there can be a car club member that does stuff in his garage that is just as good as any restoration shop can do (provided zoning regulations and such don't shut it down).

So, I would recommend that the car owner operate their restoration operation like a business venture. Cost of the raw material (vehicle, if purchased), cost of the materials to be replaced/refurbished and associated labor costs versus estimated market value when done. From this time and money estimate, you can probably double the money and triple the time estimate (from your best guess) for a worst case scenario.

If the cost analysis for the projected value of the vehicle is too out of whack, then some adjustments might need to be made or make a determination of getting some help with the various jobs to be done or spacing them out. Many car enthusiasts started doing their own body work and such as they discovered they could do at least as good work as what they were paying money to get done. If you don't count their labor, the various restoration projects become more realistic in cost as you're only paying for parts and materials.

In the early '90s, myself and others in our local Mopar club participated in a "down the to shell" restoraton of a '70 Superbird. The car was stripped and plastic media blasted. Each component was disassembled and rebuilt/refurbished/replaced as necessary. The various components were treated as subassemblies when possible (i.e., engine, trans, instrument panel, interior, suspension, rear axle) such that when the vehicle was ready for reassembly, it was done as close to the same way it was done at the factory (including installing the engine/trans/front suspension/k-frame from underneath in one operation that took 4 self-centering bolts to make it attach to the body structure). The instrument panel was removed as an assembly (which allowed the heater system to be rebuilt/refurbished much easier) and then reinstalled as an assembly with the front seat not yet installed. Doing things this way does require a body contact lift and is much easier than doing things on your back.

As assembly progressed of the subassemblies, they were "remarked" as they were when removed (paint stripes, daubs, marks) when finished. Pains were taken to get the correct finish on the various parts as they were done at the factory.

When the final costs were totalled, it was something like $30K to do that car (which I suspect included the purchase of the unrestored car after several months of negotiating). That might have included a few group meals at Red Lobster for the other car club members who participated in that venture too. Our payment was the experience of helping restore a piece of American automotive history and seeing it win its class in a national event where originality (and reproduction thereof) is paramount.

When the car was sold about a year later, it was sold to a body shop owner in Chicago who found out that it was cheaper to buy a car of that calibre already done than to do one in his shop. He had a GTX done the same way, but he paid one of his employees to do it at the shop. Not only did he loose the production of that employee, he tied up his shop space too, which cost more production loss. He was glad to pay the agreed upon price for the Superbird and not have to work on it.

This has become a little long, but I felt the need to mention some of the side issues and how to go about them in the quest for a restored vehicle. Key thing is to find a good shop that knows your vehicle (and had done them before) PLUS getting a plan in writing of what is to happen and what it will cost. In some municipalities, a written estimate by the shop is a binding contract to produce the listed work for the stated price (with some variance in some cases), but that does not mean they might not find "addons" which need to be done "while you're there" when they will be cheaper to do than later. Once you have a plan and an understanding of what is to be done when, by whom, and at what cost, you can proceed to the limit of your tolerance.

Restorations don't come in a box and getting Samantha to twitch her nose to make it happen immediately is not an option either. Patience can be a virtue in these situations too, especially if all parties involved trust each other to take care of each other (the shop owner to produce a good job and the owner to pay for it).

MARTINSR does have some good guidelines on choosing a shop and I hope I've added some other questions you can ask the potential shop owner in the process too.

Thanks for your time and consideration,

NTX5467

[pphil]

dont ever pay in advance.i did and a 3-week job turned into a 4 1/2

month job.i had to threatin bodly harm to get it done the job came out looking

like CHIT (sorry) im going to redo everything myself next year if i can afford it.i did check his work before letting him have my car he could do good work

but after he spent my money i guess he figured why just get it out of here.

scott

1964 wildcat

425-2-4bbls 4-speed

p.s. when i picked my car up somehow my carrier berring support was ripped in half the drive shaft was flopping under the car.he dont know how that happened

well me ethier i guess they tear them selfs apart when they set for 4 months.

thanks for letting me cry some <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[KAD36]

Martinsr and NTX -thats excellent advice - I printed it out and put it with my "notes" in my shop manual as I'll be crossing the "paint" bridge in the not too distant future and will use your advice. I always look forward to your posts.

Back in '81 when I first got my 55 Buick going, I had a similar experience with a shop I entrusted my Dynaflow to. I was pretty wet behind the ears then, I selected a shop to do it because the owner/mechanic was in his late 50's, had parts in the attic, said he worked on them before, and seemed to know what he was doing. Boy did I learn quick. He got about 75% done and needed a part and couldn't find it, so he pulled it out of his shop and the car sat, with no tranny, on 4 jack stands in his lot for months. My "front end loaded" downpayment was "enough for his troubles" so once it was out of his garage so he could keep the shop bays open for other customers, thereby securing his revenue stream to pay the bills, he lost his incentive to get the work done, and I lost the leverage to make him get it done in a timely fashion. Hence - get parts you think you'll need up front, withhold a reasonable amount toward the end, GET INDEPENDENT REFERENCES and follow up on them.

If a shop is reluctant to take the time to communicate the details to make you comfortable with the work, to help educate you with the work to be performed on your car and/or gets defensive because of what you're trying to find out, do business elsewhere. Shame on them. Similaraly, shame on you if you won't take the time to clearly communicate your expectations on each detail you expect done on a particular job, be it engine, tranny paint, etc. For those of us who are really conciencious about our cars, we should clearly communicate expectations to those in the service industry so each party is proud of the work done. And, to each of your points, expect things will not go as planned since we are dealing with antiques (and with people), and set up a "reserve" in your schedule and budget expectations for such things (little bit of Program Management advice!)

Looking forward to the new V8Buick forum!

[Guest Skyking]

MARTINSR, Great article! I'm sure glad I have the ability to do all my own work........

[Guest]

Excellent article, as usual, MARTINSR. Thanks in great part to you, and many others on another forum, I recently finished a total color change paint job on my '39. Although by myself in the garage, I was never "alone" as you and others were always available to answer my questions and keep me straight. And, best of all, every last one of my friends and fellow "Car Guys" all agree....it looks GREAT!!

[Guest]

lhill, That really makes me feel good, thank you for letting me know.