1929 President FH steering box rebuild

[Gary_Ash]

I'm trying to take the backlash out of the Ross steering box that I'm using in my Indy car replica.  The box came from a 1929 President FH, has a single-pin cam lever arm, no bearing for the pin.  The pin is worn heavily on both sides.  I thought it was possible to grind the weld on the back of the pin, press it out, turn it 90 degrees, re-insert, and weld.  However, even after lightly grinding the back of the arm, I can't see signs of a weld there or a joint where the pin might have been just pressed in.  Before I go attacking this thing with big power tools, has anyone done this in a 1930 or older President?  In 1931, they changed the arm to allow an adjustment screw in the back cover, but this box doesn't have one.  The Ross number forged into the arm is 224997, corresponds to Studebaker p/n 150700.  The arm seems to be unique to 1929-30 FH sedans and some FE touring cars.  Just for fun, I'll ask: has anyone got an NOS arm?  

 

Interior of Ross steering box.

 

Cam lever arm from Ross box.

 

Worn pin on cam lever arm.

 

Rear side of cam lever arm where weld ought to be.

 

 

[edinmass]

The pins on later Ross boxes were replaceable........but they were mounted on bearings.......we have made fixed pins in the past.......and had issues with heat treating done by a major company........they over did the treatment and became brittle. Had a failure with them. Your engineering skills are top notch, and I’m sure you can handle them, but I would make several and test them to destruction. That said, your worm is pitted and galled.....which will also require attention. Is it possible to source a better box?

[Gary_Ash]

Ed:  I'm assuming that the pin should be softer than the worm so that the pin wears instead of the worm.  I can check the hardness of this pin in case I want to make a new one.  The real issue now is how to I get the %$#@&! pin out of the arm?  It doesn't make sense to me that they would have forged the arm with the pin as one piece and machined the 15 degree taper on the pin in place, though it's possible.  I rate my chances of finding a much better worm or an NOS arm are about like finding a snowball in the hot place, but I'm looking anyway.  The photos of the worm that I posted were taken years ago before I cleaned it up - it wasn't that bad.  The finished car will weigh about half of what the sedans did that used the box, so friction should not be a big deal.

 

I could just drill the pin out from the front side and press in a new one, but will save that as a last resort.

 

I did learn that the same arm, p/n 150700, was used in 1928 model GB and GH Commanders, probably in 1928 FA and FB Presidents but I don't have a parts book for the 1928 Presidents.

[studerex]

I know you enjoy the challenge of doing these projects the hard way.  The farm tractor guys do supply the pins and shafts.  Check the sizes that might fit.  I also might have a gear box around here.  I parted out many 29 and 30s.  Also the early ones that did not have a adjusting screw did the adjustment by cover shims.  https://antique-tractor-parts.steinertractor.com/tractor/Steering-Gearbox

[studerex]

I looked today and was surprised that this is all I have in 29 30 president steering.  I've parted out so many.  

[rbk]

Gary

This is a picture of the cover of the steering box I have.

[(S)]

I looked and do not have that part number.  I did note that it looks like they were a heated, press fit with a  (electro ) small weld around the base of the shaft on the other side.  It looks like you just need to heat it and press it out.    The weld looks similar to a clutch shaft/arm except it has machine marks where it has been 'back cut'  So the weld does not interfere with fitment.   I can post a picture if it would show up.   On the new part, you can see it better.

Edited September 12, 2020 by (S) (see edit history)

[rbk]

Another steering box in my collection if

I can find it back in the mess.

I took this picture back in 2001.

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by rbk (see edit history)

[Aussi John 1]

Over 20 years ago I reconditioned the steering box on my Brooklands President. From memory, the pin was not removeable.

I had the pin built up. The car has travelled in excess of 30,000 miles since. I recently checked it and it was still as good as new.

 

 It's a good idea to replace the bicycle head style ball bearings on the worm with Timken bearings.

[Gary_Ash]

When I took the arm to the local machine shop, Andy tried to take a cut on the back side of the arm, only got sparks and a dulled end mill bit, so the entire arm and pin are really hard.  Did you do anything special to weld up the pin to prevent cracking?  Did you use a hard weld metal or standard ER70S wire?

 

The box in the last photo posted by Bob Kapteyn looks like my box but I'm not optimistic that it would be in better shape than the one I have.

[studerex]

1 hour ago, Gary_Ash said:

When I took the arm to the local machine shop, Andy tried to take a cut on the back side of the arm, only got sparks and a dulled end mill bit, so the entire arm and pin are really hard.  Did you do anything special to weld up the pin to prevent cracking?  Did you use a hard weld metal or standard ER70S wire?

 

The box in the last photo posted by Bob Kapteyn looks like my box but I'm not optimistic that it would be in better shape than the one I have.

I thought you were always optimistic.  

[rbk]

Gary

That box came from a 1928 Model GE.

Do you want me to look for it?

Robert Kapteyn

[Aussi John 1]

Gary

I think you will find that the 28 Ge uses a different box than the FH. I don't have a 28 parts book to check. I have 29 FD and two 29 FH's and the FH is defiantly different than the FD. The 29 parts book also list the Fcs and Fds different to each other. The GE is possibly the same as the FC.  You need to get a box with the same casting number. 

Providing the holes line up the GE box may be useable, but the ratio and the angle may be different. It could even be better.

 

 

[Gary_Ash]

Actually, the only part I really want is the cam lever arm to replace the one with the worn pin.  The rest of the steering gear has been modified for my Indy car replica: I machined off the mounting plate of the housing, shortened the shaft, welded on a steering wheel adapter for a removable wheel, and made a new adjustable mount for the box.  

 

Strangely, it turns out that the RHC version of the steering gear for a 1928-29 Dictator GE uses the same cam lever arm (p/n 150700, forging number 224997) as the FE/FH Presidents, but only the right hand drive version of the GE.  So, John, maybe there is a good one in Australia...

 

Bob Kapteyn:  As noted above, unless that box from the GE came from a right-hand drive car, you don't need to go looking for the box.  Thanks, anyway.

 

The casting number on my box from the 1929 President FH is 222982.  Here are some photos of the modifications to the housing to replicate the original Indy cars.  They used a box with casting number 222994, but I don't know which cars it was used in.

 

Ross box with adjustable mount during fabrication.

 

Modified Ross box on my Indy car replica.

[studerex]

I knew I had more.  Let me know how you project is going.

[Gary_Ash]

Rex:

We’re planning a trip west, will be in South Bend on Nov. 2-3, then up to Gilmore Museum. We’d like to stop by for a visit with you and Pam, pick up a steering box and maybe 1 or 2 more shock links. Also, if you have one of those tail lights, I need one. OK with you?

 

[studerex]

We should be here.  Just sold this one with a good steering and shock links.  Street rodder should not need them.

 

[Aussi John 1]

Hi Gary, maybe there is a good cam lever available in Australia, but very hard to find. One of the other problems with the steering box is the worms wear in the middle. If you adjust the wear out in the middle they bind at the ends. You can avoid this by limiting the lock, this is not good, as they already have the lock of the Queen Mary.