water pump

[skyler]

I need to replace the water pump on a 54 Windsor, 265 engine. the one on there I got from rock auto about 5 years ago. are there any pumps available that will give more volume, especially at idle? are any that are American made? I still have the original [with the grease fitting] but I do not think they pump as well as the newer ones that are available. the engine is leaking water from behind the pump. just figured I would replace it since I am doing the labor anyway. anybody have suggestions for the best pump? thanks    dennis

[Guest]

More volume does not necessarily mean the engine will run cooler.  In fact more volume might make the engine run hotter as the coolant does not remain in the radiator long enough to transfer the optimal amount of heat out of the liquid into the metal of the radiator and then to the air.

[John Loney]

I had Flying Dutchmen rebuild the original water pump on my ‘39 Imperial. The original design had a two blade impeller (they only ran this design for 3 years...38, 39 & 40). They replaced the impeller with a later design (8 blades if I’m not mistaken) as part of the rebuild and I’ve never had an overheating issue since. I would contact them and get their opinion...I was very happy with what they did for my Chrysler. 

[skyler]

thank you john. did the rebuild include sealed bearings or do you still use the grease fitting, or is the grease fitting removed?   dennis  

[StillOutThere]

Very well paid engineers designed the pump and cooling system of your car for exactly the correct volume of water movement.  You won't out-think them.  

[keithb7]

There are multiple key parts and systems in the engine's cooling system that all need to work together to effectively cool the engine.

The water pump is one. Radiator, thermostat, hoses, water distribution tube, block and head coolant passages, fan belt, rad cap, cooling liquid, are all combined in their efforts to keep the engine cool. Don't assume replacing or upgrading 1 piece of the cooling system will fix an overheating problem.

 

Water leaking from behind the pump is a good clue that the water pump needs to be addressed. However is it leaking from the tattletale weep hole on the dry side of the pump? Or one or both of the gaskets on the wet side of the pump?

[skyler]

it is leaking from behind, not the front weep hole. I assume it is the gasket, but I have not removed it yet. just thought I would replace it while doing the labor anyway. I am just looking for more water movement at idle as that is a weak point in trying to drive this car on hot days in town.i tried the electric fan but that did not help, seemed a little worse if anything. I have replaced the dist. tube, but I will pull it and try to flush in there. I have flushed thru the core plugs, but not much came out there. rad is recored and has good flow. I know these engines can run cool, just not mine.     dennis

[StillOutThere]

Automotive drive train engineers will tell you that approximately HALF of the cooling of an internal combustion engine is the oiling system and the other HALF is the cooling system.

[skyler]

still out there, you must be an engineer, but you are still not answering the question here. I do think you are on track about the oil. I have considered dropping the pan to clean it of crud that holds heat, and maybe keep the oil cooler and doing a better job for that half of the cooling system. I believe that my water pump is not producing the volume that the well paid engineers designed it to produce. at idle you cannot see any flow in the top of the radiator. if you rev the engine then you see water flow. I am not an engineer but the new pumps, and even rebuilts may not meet the original design standards. I have looked at rebuilders and flying Dutchman looks like a good choice.    thanks,    dennis 

[FLYER15015]

Skyler,

X2 on the "Flying Dutchman".

Wade rebuilt the pump on my '31 CG about a year ago.

So far not a drop, and she runs a constant 180 F, even in our local parades.

Could not be happier with their price and performance !!!

 

Mike in Colorado

[StillOutThere]

On 8/7/2020 at 5:45 PM, skyler said:

still out there, you must be an engineer, but you are still not answering the question here. I do think you are on track about the oil. I have considered dropping the pan to clean it of crud that holds heat, and maybe keep the oil cooler and doing a better job for that half of the cooling system. I believe that my water pump is not producing the volume that the well paid engineers designed it to produce. at idle you cannot see any flow in the top of the radiator. if you rev the engine then you see water flow. I am not an engineer but the new pumps, and even rebuilts may not meet the original design standards. I have looked at rebuilders and flying Dutchman looks like a good choice.    thanks,    dennis 

Not an engineer, just an experienced hobbyist who at one time partnered in a restoration shop and then later managed another shop.   Have had conversations with radiator builders and known a couple of those Detroit engineers.  

Another thought would be that the impeller in your pump has come loose from its shaft.  Some are swadged, some pressed, some welded.  Some come loose!  That could cause no visible flow.

There are always MANY things to consider to fix an old car problem.  There can only be ONE FIX for the actual problem.

[tom1954]

A few years back I had the water pump on my 54 with a 331 rebuilt due to the seal leaking out the weep hole. Drove it very locally once or twice, seemed good. Next trip out it was an expressway run, overheated big time. When it cooled down a bit I was able to take off the top hose and I could see that the thermostat was wide open. Put the hose back on, filled it with water, fired it up and almost instant overheating. Had it towed home, took off the water pump, the pressed on impeller was spinning on the shaft. Took it back to the rebuilder, he did not have any spare shafts or impellers so as a last resort the impeller was tack welded to the shaft. All is well now, still will run hot while idling or moving very slowly for a long distance (parade) if the outside temps are over 60 or so. I believe part of that is I do not have a seal between the hood and the  core support and secondly with so much open space under the front of the engine compartment the fan can pull air from underneath instead of through the grill / radiator.

I have since acquired spare water pumps as well as rebuilding parts that hopefully I will never need.

[tom1954]

I do know that the fan pulls air from under the car because during summer cruising the underside of the hood is covered with bug residue directly over the area that would be over the space between the fan shroud and the front of the motor. That is a positive indication of air being sucked in from the bottom. The car does not overheat as there is enough air passing through the radiator while driving.

[skyler]

still, I have not pulled the pump yet, but what got my attention was the water leaking from the back of the pump. leak could have been caused by the impeller being loose. I will post later when pump is off. also. tom, I have closed off a lot of the areas where air can get in without going through the rad. fins,but a minimal if any change there. I am sending my older original pump[ the one with the grease fitting] to flying Dutchman and he says he can put a better impeller and do some machining to increase the flow at idle. I can visually see where that pump has a wobble in the impeller, so even though it was rebuilt about 12 years ago, it never worked well and I replaced it with a newer pump that actually does show a slight flow at idle. I am also pulling the water tube and flushing in there, and may pull the core plugs also. they will be easier to pull as I have replaced them with the dorman plugs that go on with a socket instead of banging them in. thanks for all the help and replies, I will post my success, or lack of, at a later date.   dennis

[skyler]

pump sent to the Dutchman yesterday. I have studied what I think is the water flow, and it looks like the water from the rad. comes in to the bottom of the impeller, pumped to the dist. tube, into the block, and up to the head, past the thermostat [ a little goes to the heater core] and then to the top of the rad. the critical clearances look to be between the bottom of the impeller where the water comes in, and the top of the impeller to the housing. well designed impeller blades will also be critical. not sure I got this right. I looked for a diagram of the water flow, but it is not in my manuals. I am thinking that since the oil system is so important that dropping the pan and cleaning it out may result in the oil running cooler and helping the engine temp. overall. I would love this engine to be more reliable when the north carolina summer is at its peak temps. also, when in stop/go traffic and parades. a lot of work for my 71 year old bones, but I think I can do it. just waitng for a little cooler weather. I also had the power brake booster rebuilt and will put that back in. it has been eliminated from the brake system since I bought the car, so it is not a mandatory repair right now. I still have brakes. I want to get back to driving the car instead of just working on it. hope all are well in this covid time.   skyler

[Rusty_OToole]

Check the temperature of the head front and back with a laser thermometer, they should be the same within 5 or 10 degrees. If the back is hotter, it is a sign the water distribution tube is rusted or clogged and all the coolant is streaming up the front of the engine. No need to take anything apart.

[skyler]

rusty, you reminded me that I have to get a laser thermometer. I guess any auto parts store has them. I did have one at some point, so I will look in the old tool box. I just don't recall seeing it lately. I have a 180 thermostat, so the temp. of the head should be close to that?   thanks   skyler