401 vs 430 piston rings

[RivNut]

51 minutes ago, johnrex said:

My brand new 1965 Wildcat averaged a quart every 500-1000 miles. Perfectly normal, in fact, some mechanics told me if you didn't burn oil, something was wrong.

My dad was a professional Buick mechanic at Stuart Conklin Buick in Hutchinson, KS for many years.  He would tell me basically the same thing that Johnrex stated above.  "If your engine isn't using a little oil, then everything that needs oil isn't getting it."

[telriv]

ALL these conversations on oil usage are as stated "Normal".  It, IF I remember correctly,  it's even stated in the owners manual. Up until 1966 there were NO valve stem oil seals installed from the factory.  And in 1966 they were ONLY installed on the intakes. 

You need to remember we are dealing with OLD vehicles with OLD technology. WE CAN'T expect them to live up to modern standards.

In all reality I would rather have an engine use a little oil as then I know the 1st. ring is getting a little oil to help lubricate the upper ring which leads to less cylinder wall wear.

Just like everyone wants their engine to start immediately after sitting for awhile being it one week or months between startups. Although I know that I can usually start my engine pretty quickly I DON'T want it to start immediately for the reason of a "Dry" start.  Just crank it for 15-20 seconds, let the starter cool for 30 seconds & repeat.  MANY say it will wear out the starter, BUT it can be rebuilt/replaced a LOT EASIER than replacing bearings.  To me that's a waste of time & money for no reason. I've done this since day one on my Riv. MAYBE it has something to do with why I have over 200K since I rebuilt the engine which, at the time had only 120K on it.  AND, you must remember I bought this Riv. new at 18 yrs' old & it didn't have an easy life being drag raced/rat raced & all.  The reason I had to come up with a remedy to constantly breaking the left front motor mount within the 1st. six months of ownership.

[60FlatTop]

These are the little umbrellas that I referred to. They just shed oil from the stem.

 

I have seen them in a couple of 401's. They are not like a cup shaped Chevy seal, just a gesture at keeping the oil out. I see the box is marked TRW. Maybe They were part of a repair done prior. I never got a paycheck as a car mechanic, never had any formal training on fixing cars, and when you have a Buick you don't have many people to discuss amateur repairs with.

 

But my cars get me home and back better than some. And I noticed I smile a lot more, too.

[Turbinator]

9 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

Hi Bob,

  That sort of oil usage for a Nailhead seems to be quite common. Cant remember whether it was `64, `65 or `66 but there is a service bulletin regarding oil usage that states anything over 500 miles per quart is "normal". The best "oil economy" I ever got with a Nailhead on the highway was 1 quart in a thousand miles from Florida to Chicago.

Tom

Tom, first...thank you for telling me your experience. I’m ok with a car using some oil. For me a 1/2 quart oil every 3000 miles is acceptable.

My personal experience as a younger man was I blew up car engines believing the engine was starving for oil. Could very well have been the junkers I was driving. A 1 1/2 quart usage from central Maryland, Pittsburgh, Lake Erie and back over 800 miles was unacceptable for me.The engine is 57 years old, uses some oil, I wanted a rebuilt engine thinking the engine would be more reliable for long trips. I had planned to drive from central Md. to K-Zoo and back. Next year I hope to drive to Branson MO and back and if I use 1 1/2 quarts of oil out and back I’ll be ok with that.

Turbinator

[Turbinator]

8 hours ago, kegart said:

I can remember that I checked the oil level every time I got gas. Chevrolets usually got 800-900 miles to a quart. The first car that I had that didn't need to add oil between oil changes was a 1973 Olds.

 

Kevin

 

Kevin, I guess all these years driving GM cars and using oil was normal. I knew some cars could use a 1/2 quart every 3000 miles and that was ok. I never thought using a quart every 1000 miles was ok. Now I’ve changed my mind. Thank you for your comments.

Turbinator

[1965rivgs]

3 hours ago, Turbinator said:

Tom, first...thank you for telling me your experience. I’m ok with a car using some oil. For me a 1/2 quart oil every 3000 miles is acceptable.

My personal experience as a younger man was I blew up car engines believing the engine was starving for oil. Could very well have been the junkers I was driving. A 1 1/2 quart usage from central Maryland, Pittsburgh, Lake Erie and back over 800 miles was unacceptable for me.The engine is 57 years old, uses some oil, I wanted a rebuilt engine thinking the engine would be more reliable for long trips. I had planned to drive from central Md. to K-Zoo and back. Next year I hope to drive to Branson MO and back and if I use 1 1/2 quarts of oil out and back I’ll be ok with that.

Turbinator

Hi Bob,

  A quart every 6000 miles is a modern car expectation, I would never expect that from a `60`s Buick...I imagine I get that sort of oil economy from my late model cars but cant say for sure because I`m careful to drop it between 3 and 4 K miles and never top off,

Tom

[Turbinator]

5 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

Hi Bob,

  A quart every 6000 miles is a modern car expectation, I would never expect that from a `60`s Buick...I imagine I get that sort of oil economy from my late model cars but cant say for sure because I`m careful to drop it between 3 and 4 K miles and never top off,

Tom

Tom, you have more experience in this realm than I do. I’m happy to adjust my expectations to be more in line with your first hand experience. Thanks again for your support and efforts to help me amend my expectations on oil consumption.

Turbinator

[Weiand]

Found this as i was searching this info also.

So, is it the same? I'm looking for a set right now and want moly rings and found for the 430 but not 401.

I also looked at the Redline rebuild on youtube were he stated it is a 401 only ring but the buick 430 and chrysler 413 is same bore?

Have been looking at the specifications and they all seems to be the same?

Or did I just miss the answer in this thread?

Thanks.

[RivNut]

5 hours ago, Weiand said:

Found this as i was searching this info also.

So, is it the same? I'm looking for a set right now and want moly rings and found for the 430 but not 401.

I also looked at the Redline rebuild on youtube were he stated it is a 401 only ring but the buick 430 and chrysler 413 is same bore?

Have been looking at the specifications and they all seems to be the same?

Or did I just miss the answer in this thread?

Thanks.

I don't think you missed it; it was never confirmed by anyone with the knowledge to confirm it. The thread took off in a different direction, like so many do,  than that of the original question. Sorry, I still do not have the answer to my original question.  😕

 

Ed

[RivNut]

Found this on Rock Auto when I looked for piston rings for a 1965 Buick with a 401 engine.  You will notice that the years span both engines, the 401 1959 - 1966, AND the 430 1967 - 1969 plus the Chrysler 413 for the years 1959 - 1965

 

BUICK > 1965 > RIVIERA > 6.6L 401cid V8 > Engine > Piston Ring		Price
ENGINETECH R41818 Set Info Cast. 5/64 5/64 3/16" Choose Size:		$59.79
SEALED POWER E287X {Click Info Button for Alternate/OEM Part Numbers} Set Info Piston Ring Set Choose Size:

 

 

BUICK > 1967 > RIVIERA > 7.0L 430cid V8 > Engine > Piston Ring		Price
ENGINETECH R41818 Set Info Cast. 5/64 5/64 3/16" Choose Size:		$59.79
SEALED POWER E287X {Click Info Button for Alternate/OEM Part Numbers} Set Info Piston Ring Set Choose Size:

 

DODGE > 1962 > POLARA > 6.7L 413cid V8 > Engine > Piston Ring		Price
ENGINETECH R41818 Set Info Cast. 5/64 5/64 3/16"

This is for Sealed power part part# E287X

 

BUICK	ELECTRA	1959-1969
BUICK	ESTATE WAGON	1959-1964
BUICK	INVICTA	1959-1963
BUICK	LESABRE	1959-1964
BUICK	RIVIERA	1963-1969
BUICK	WILDCAT	1962-1969
CHRYSLER	300	1959-1965
CHRYSLER	IMPERIAL	1959-1965
CHRYSLER	NEW YORKER	1959-1965
CHRYSLER	NEWPORT	1959-1965
CHRYSLER	TOWN & COUNTRY	1959-1965
DODGE	880	1963
DODGE	CUSTOM	1961
DODGE	DART	1961-1962
DODGE	LANCER	1961
DODGE	MONACO	1965
DODGE	POLARA	1961-1965
PLYMOUTH	BELVEDERE	1961-1964
PLYMOUTH	CUSTOM	1961
PLYMOUTH	FLEET SPECIAL	1961-1963
PLYMOUTH	FURY	1961-1964
PLYMOUTH	SAVOY	1961-1964
PLYMOUTH	SPORT WAGON	1961
PLYMOUTH	SUBURBAN	1961

Please refer to catalog for application details.

 

Details of each ring

for the Buick 401  

 

Diameter (inch)	4.1875
Cylinders	08
Top Width	.0780
Top Part No.	BT10038
2nd Width	.0780
2nd Part No.	RBT10047
3rd Width	.1875
3rd Part No.	SS50U645

 

 

Here's the details for Engine Tech part# R41818 (basically the same as above)

BUICK	ELECTRA	1959-1969
BUICK	ESTATE WAGON	1959-1964
BUICK	GRAN SPORT	1965-1966
BUICK	INVICTA	1959-1963
BUICK	LESABRE	1959-1964
BUICK	RIVIERA	1963-1969
BUICK	SKYLARK	1965-1966
BUICK	WILDCAT	1962-1969
CHRYSLER	300	1959-1965
CHRYSLER	IMPERIAL	1959-1965
CHRYSLER	NEW YORKER	1959-1965
CHRYSLER	NEWPORT	1959-1965
DODGE	880	1963
DODGE	CUSTOM	1961-1965
DODGE	DART	1961-1962
DODGE	LANCER	1961
DODGE	MONACO	1965
DODGE	POLARA	1961-1965
PLYMOUTH	BELVEDERE	1961-1964
PLYMOUTH	CUSTOM	1961
PLYMOUTH	FLEET SPECIAL	1961-1963
PLYMOUTH	FURY	1961-1964
PLYMOUTH	SAVOY	1961-1964
PLYMOUTH	SPORT WAGON	1961
PLYMOUTH	SUBURBAN	1961

Please refer to catalog for application details.

 

Here are the details for a 425 nailhead

 

BUICK > 1965 > RIVIERA > 7.0L 425cid V8 > Engine > Piston Ring		Price
Full Set / Standard Replacement
ENGINETECH R43128 Set Info FitsBase Model; Cast. 5/64 5/64 3/16". orBase Model; Cast. 5/16 5/64 3/16". Choose Size:		$39.79
SEALED POWER E289X {#1394616, 1394879, 328546} Set Info Piston Ring Set Choose Size:    C Compare the above specs for a 425 nailhead to these specs for a 455 Buick Big Block below -     BUICK > 1970 > RIVIERA > 7.5L 455cid V8 > Engine > Piston Ring Price   Full Set / Standard Replacement    HASTINGS MANUFACTURING 645060 Set; .060" Oversize Piston Ring Set [Wholesaler Closeout -- 30 Day Warranty] (Only 1 Remaining)       $5.80     Add to Cart   ENGINETECH R43128 Set Info  Cast. 5/64 5/64 3/16" Choose Size:      $39.79         SEALED POWER E289X {#1394616, 1394879, 328546} Set Info Piston Ring Set Choose Size:

Apparently the old saying is apropos "Want something done, do it yourself."  

Hopefully I've answered the (my) original question in this post. So  @Weiand , go out and purchase your piston rings.

 

Ed

 

 

 

[Weiand]

It might be that the preset ring gap from factory is different? Also noticed that TA Performance listed same rings for 430 and 401.

 

[RivNut]

The rings are the same, you'll have to set the ring gap with any set that you buy.  You match the ring to the cylinder bore.

 

That's why these things are common in any shop.

 

Edited July 18, 2020 by RivNut (see edit history)

[telriv]

    Unfortunately the GOOD ring material is NOT available in the standard ring sizes of 5/64ths.cast iron/5/64ths cast iron/ 3/16ths. regular oil rings.  

The ONLY way to get GOOD rings is by not using the standard overbore sizes.

My FORGED pistons come with a 1/16th. Moly top ring  A cast 2nd. ring. Both 1/16th. in width & a 3/16th. QUALITY oil ring.  There are NO DOWNSIDES to using a 1/16th. ring as far as longevity goes, BUT can gain approx. 15HP because of less drag on the cylinder wall because of the slightly thinner rings.  MY FORGED pistons come with the above rings by various GOOD ring suppliers like Sealed Power, Total Seal (not gapless) Hastings & a variety of others.  ONLY the top quality rings come with MY PISTONS.

    AND, for ALL of you that think the stock compression ratio is 10.25-1 you are likely WAY mis-informed.  The best I've EVER measured on a stock "Nail" is 9.75-1 & that was with the piston in the hole .040" with a compressed shim steel gasket at .015"-.016" compressed the quench/squish area at .055" which is just out of the ideal quench/squish area of between .025"-.050". 

     Most are in the hole .055" which now brings the compression down to around 9.5-1.

During the course of a rebuild the common composite gaskets are ANYWHERE between .038"-.050" crushed which lowers the compression on a 401/ .77-1. Unless you go for the added expense of the stock shim steel gaskets which are about .015"-.016" compressed.  So NOW your compression is approx. 8.75-1 quench/squish area is approx. .050" IF the off the shelf pistons you get are at ZERO deck.  NEVER HAPPEN. Since an off the shelf piston has to fit ALL combinations of rod length, finished deck height etc. you'll BE LUCKY IF they sit in the hole at .060", BUT MORE THAN LIKELY will be in the hole as much as .085".  NOW THE QUENCH/SQUISH IS EVEN WORSE AT .085" + THE HEAD GASKET COMPRESSED THICKNESS IS WAY OUT IN LEFT FIELD AT .135".  A big cause of detonation, MANY times you can't hear it, worse fuel mileage, rougher running engine, taking into consideration of the cam being used & MANY other problems.

   So you think that decking the block is a good idea to help with the compression & other problems.  NOW you have to add the cost of decking the block to the cost of off the shelf pistons & rings & your close to the cost of MY FORGED PISTONS.  Don't you think cutting .085" off the top/deck of the block doesn't weaken it. Think again.

   ALL MY PISTONS ARE CUSTOM MADE FOR YOUR ENGINE & SPECS.   The best that you can get at a competitive price.  MY PISTONS are designed to be as light as possible. NO EXTRA $$$$ for a lightening process. A stock cast piston is approx. 700+ grams. MY PISTONS ON AVERAGE ARE 650 grams.  The stock 1" wrist pin is approx. 235 grams.  On average MY PINS WEIGH approx. 150 grams.  

   MANY DESIGN FEATURES ARE BUILT IN. NO LEFT OR RIGHT PISTONS. ENOUGH RADIAL CLEARANCE FOR 1.94" INTAKE VALVES.  VALVE NOTCHES FOR THE CAPACITY OF GETTING A .700" VALVE LIFT WITHOUT HAVING TO NOTCH THE PISTONS. ALL THESE IMPROVEMENTS ARE STANDARD WITH MY PISTONS.

   Enough said.

 

Tom T.