Fuel pump for 1932 Buick Series 80

[32BuickVicky]

At some point, a previous owner exchanged the mechanical fuel pump for an electric. They moved the electric fuel pump fairly close to the engine .. within about a foot of the engine. I measured the fuel pressure and it's about 4 psi. I am getting a strong gas smell and gas spillover from the spillover valve on the carburetor even at that low PSI .... but I think it is due to the proximity of the electric field pump to the engine. I think I am going to go back to a mechanical fuel pump and maybe move the electric fuel pump back near the fuel tank just in case I needed an extra boost for engine starting purposes and have it on a separate toggle switch. Does anyone have a mechanical fuel pump or know where to find one that has been rebuilt?  Also, I'm kind of learning this stuff as I go as a newbie, so if anyone thinks having a backup is a bad idea, please let me know.

Edited January 21, 2019 by 32BuickVicky (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

1932-33 Buick 60, 80, 90 all had a series F pump, number 856138. A series F pump looks like this:

The bottom half is a vacuum pump for the windscreen wipers, so throttle position won't affect their performance. Note the top: inlet on the  left, outlet on the right, basically a "straight through" looking arrangement.  I think that top will have 855261 cast into it. The AC part number 856138 may be stamped into it somewhere, e.g. on the mounting flange edge, or may just 6138. Of course the arm will probably be unlike the picture above.

 

AC number 856138 was also used in 1934-35 Buick 60 and 90. Also used on some 1935 60 and 90s was 1521805, which will be the same with some (small?) modification that may not be visible from the outside.

 

These are type 420 pumps. Replacement pumps made after WWII will probably be called type 420 and may have a different part number on them.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[32BuickVicky]

Spinneyhill,

 

Thanks for the info. Is there another mechanical pump for 32s that do not have the bottom assembly for the vacuum wipers? My wipers currently pull vacuum from up around the exhaust manifold and work pretty well. In other words, I guess I need more of a single action mechanical pump rather than the double action.

[Robert Engle]

In 32 , the 50 series had no vacuum assisted fuel pumps, but 60, 80 and 90 series cars all had the fuel/vacuum pumps.  If you really plan to do a lot of driving in the rain, or you want the car correct; you will want the double acting pump.  going up hill the wipers will slow to a crawl.  They work fine on the downhill side.

 

Bob Engle 

[Spinneyhill]

What Bob said. Blank off the manifold vacuum port and set it up correctly! You won't worry about the wipers then, they will work nicely.... as long as the motor is lubricated etc.

[32BuickVicky]

Doesn't look like it matters because the fuel pump push rod is not there (the small rod in the block that trips the mechanical fuel pump).  Any chance one of you fellas has one?

[Spinneyhill]

Usually the arm rubs on a cam on the cam shaft. It is not necessarily a short one as shown in the picture I posted above. It may be 3" long, I don't know. See if you can feel the cam with your finger.

 

Keep an eye on eBay. One could come up sometime. I did that for mine, it took a few months.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Robert Engle]

On the 50 series there is no pushrod, the arm on the pump rides directly on the cam.  The 60, 80, 90 series do need a pushrod as the fuel pump is on the drivers side of the engine, not the passenger side like the 50 series.

 

Bob Engle

 

[32BuickVicky]

Well fellas, if either of you come across the push rod for an 80, I need it. Otherwise, I'll have to continue using the electric fuel pump.

 

I'm getting some overflow of fuel out of the spillover on the carb, but my fuel pressure is near 4.  After talking with Mac Blair, it seems that pressure should be around 1.3 and being at 4 may be pushing it through the carb and out the overflow.  I'll adjust the regulator down to around 1.3 and see what happens.  I'm just concerned about lowering the pressure too much because as it is, the fuel filter (which is run on its side because of the setup) barely has any visible fuel running through it - the car does seem to be getting enough because it runs and idles.  I get some popping when driving - almost like it's too rich, so maybe that fuel pressure is way high afterall.

[Spinneyhill]

It would be useful to know what that push rod looks like...

Edited January 23, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[32BuickVicky]

I wish I knew Spinneyhill. I've never seen one and can't find a picture of one.

[Spinneyhill]

The other thing that would be necessary to know is how it is held in position on the cam and on the pump. There must be a cradle inside the engine or...?

 

Just inside the mounting you showed, it looks like a horizontal bar. Might the rod have been resting or nearly resting on that?

 

Do you have any cutaway cross or long section drawings of the engine, e.g. from the owner's manual or instruction book?

 

I suppose all you really need to know are the length and diameter plus end conditions. There are plenty of push rods available from more recent engines.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Robert Engle]

Page 33in the 32 Buick Specs &adjustments manual has a cutaway picture.  There is a short bore in the block at the cam.   The end of the rod fits in this bore.  The rod steps down in size until close to the block exit at the fuel pump where there appears to be a bushing that contacts the rod and then the other end contacts the fuel pump lever.  

  The fuel pump is the same for 60, 80, 90 series cars.

Remember, this 80 series engine is the same as the 90 series engines.  The pushrod for the 60 series car may be different than the 80/90 series.  

Bob Engle

[Spinneyhill]

12 minutes ago, Robert Engle said:

The end of the rod fits in this bore.

No separate cam follower? Just the end of the rod on the cam?

 

What lubricates the push rod at pump and cam?

Edited January 23, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

Here you are. Found on a car for sale.... a 32-97.  http://www.vintagemotorcarsusa.com/vehicles/details_new.php?id=289

Note the "420" - must been bought as a replacement from somewhere. Probably should not have the rubber hose?

[Spinneyhill]

This is from MoToR's Manual and may be useful to you when you find one.

[Spinneyhill]

This might help you too. Series AB #1521838 (type 422) was used on 1936-38 60, 80 90 Buicks. You will see it has the same top as series F and the same arm. The arm may have 2071 stamped into it.

[Robert Engle]

The pushrod passes through the crankcase and is angled from downward from cam to opposite side.  The cam lobes are lubricated splash and oil to roller lifters.  I would expect that the small amount of lubrication for the fuel pump push rod would be adequately supplied from these sources.  

The rod would be easy to fabricate if you could find dimensions for it.  The part is group#3.16 and the pn is 1261183.  It is unique to 1932 80/90 engines.  Your best hope would  be to find someone that is rebuilding one of these engines and ask for dimensions.

Bob Engle

[BuickTom87]

Anyone ever come up with some dimensions for the push rod? I am in the process of going back to the mechanical fuel pump, after speaking to the owner beore myself. He told me that when he bought the car back in 1971, the car was already running an electrical fuel pump with the stock one removed and blocked off with a plate.. I just want to go back to the original style.

[drovak]

I can likely pull the one out of the '32 Series 80 block I'm working on this week. 

[BuickTom87]

18 hours ago, drovak said:

I can likely pull the one out of the '32 Series 80 block I'm working on this week. 

Really you’ll do that ? 

[drovak]

Yes, really! I will try to take it out to get measurements tonight or tomorrow evening. 

[Mark Shaw]

21 hours ago, BuickTom87 said:

Anyone ever come up with some dimensions for the push rod? I am in the process of going back to the mechanical fuel pump, after speaking to the owner beore myself. He told me that when he bought the car back in 1971, the car was already running an electrical fuel pump with the stock one removed and blocked off with a plate.. I just want to go back to the original style.

     I used a 5/8" rod diameter that fit my 31-67 Buick to establish the overall length needed: 

 

• Insert a rod slightly longer than needed and manually roll the engine over until the rod is fully extended or fully retracted (top or bottom of the drive cam). 
• Mark the rod even with the mounting flat for the fuel pump. 
• Measure the stroke of the fuel pump arm to determine how much to add to the shaft.   
• Braise one end of the rod to provide a wear surface to run against the cam. 
• Then cut the other end of the shaft to fit your engine/pump combination.

[BuickTom87]

59 minutes ago, drovak said:

Yes, really! I will try to take it out to get measurements tonight or tomorrow evening. 

I’ll appreciate that , I bought an 31 80-90’deries push rod want  see if it’s the same .

[BuickTom87]

46 minutes ago, Mark Shaw said:

     I used a 5/8" rod diameter that fit my 31-67 Buick to establish the overall length needed: 

 

• Insert a rod slightly longer than needed and manually roll the engine over until the rod is fully extended or fully retracted (top or bottom of the drive cam). 
• Mark the rod even with the mounting flat for the fuel pump. 
• Measure the stroke of the fuel pump arm to determine how much to add to the shaft.   
• Braise one end of the rod to provide a wear surface to run against the cam. 
• Then cut the other end of the shaft to fit your engine/pump combination.

I was lucky to find a 31 80-90 series . I’m sure the fuel pump is the same as 32 Buick and the motor is the same but they have different part #s so it slightly can be different 

[drovak]

The '31 and '32 Series 80 use different push rods and fuel pumps. 

[BuickTom87]

Ok now that answers my question… I appreciate it . 

[32buick67]

6 hours ago, drovak said:

The '31 and '32 Series 80 use different push rods and fuel pumps. 

Kyle - for learning and for documenting, can you also please post some side-by-side pics of the two rod styles?

 

Thanks

[BuickTom87]

If no one has a 31 style push rod I can supply one . To see the differences 

[drovak]

1 hour ago, 32buick67 said:

Kyle - for learning and for documenting, can you also please post some side-by-side pics of the two rod styles?

 

Thanks

You bet! Mine has been worked on previously, but I will show them side by side regardless. 

[drovak]

Easier said than done! 

 

 

The push rod on the '32 cannot be extracted with the engine bolted to the frame. I do plan to eventually separate the two from each other, but no timeline on that yet. However, I believe the ends of the rod are identical. The '31 is just one diameter, whereas this '32 uses a larger surface to prevent as much wear. It also has three times the travel as the '31. I will still try to get measurements at some point. 

[BuickTom87]

Very interesting.. 

[32buick67]

7 hours ago, drovak said:

Easier said than done! 

 

 

The push rod on the '32 cannot be extracted with the engine bolted to the frame. I do plan to eventually separate the two from each other, but no timeline on that yet. However, I believe the ends of the rod are identical. The '31 is just one diameter, whereas this '32 uses a larger surface to prevent as much wear. It also has three times the travel as the '31. I will still try to get measurements at some point. 

Now that is definitely something I would not have expected!

 

Can you please put a caliper to measure the diameter of the rod and the end?

That rod looks just like the 32-60 rod, and I now wonder if they might be identical, or 80-90 series slightly longer if the block is wider for the larger bore with the 80-90 series.

The curious engineer is never really satisfied, ha.

 

 

[32buick67]

32-60 pump rod specs

[drovak]

Meant to provide this sooner, but life got in the way. 

 

 

Sorry for the crappy drawing. The '32 numbers should be pretty accurate.

 

My '31 rod had one end brazed before (which I think led to the failure of the fuel pump arm), so I filed it back down until I saw steel again. Hence, the length may be slightly different from factory. However, it's been working fine in my car. I also recall seeing an original Buick drawing of the '31 rod indicating the groove cut in one end. I guess that was to mark which end ought to ride against the camshaft—not that it seems like it would matter much except maybe if it's been worn in a bit. 

 

 

 

Speaking of, obviously at some point, the '32 rod decided to stop rotating, so there was some appreciable wear from the cam (and equally so on the other end from the fuel pump). At least, my understanding was that by putting the rod slightly off-center from the eccentric on the camshaft, it would induce a little spinning action for the rod.

[BuickTom87]

8 hours ago, drovak said:

Meant to provide this sooner, but life got in the way. 

 

 

Sorry for the crappy drawing. The '32 numbers should be pretty accurate.

 

My '31 rod had one end brazed before (which I think led to the failure of the fuel pump arm), so I filed it back down until I saw steel again. Hence, the length may be slightly different from factory. However, it's been working fine in my car. I also recall seeing an original Buick drawing of the '31 rod indicating the groove cut in one end. I guess that was to mark which end ought to ride against the camshaft—not that it seems like it would matter much except maybe if it's been worn in a bit. 

 

 

 

Speaking of, obviously at some point, the '32 rod decided to stop rotating, so there was some appreciable wear from the cam (and equally so on the other end from the fuel pump). At least, my understanding was that by putting the rod slightly off-center from the eccentric on the camshaft, it would induce a little spinning action for the rod.

So the push rod you’re showing for the 32 what series  is that for ?

[drovak]

These are both for Series 80 and 90.

[BuickTom87]

Do you want sell the one from the 32??? Name your price !!! 

[BuickTom87]

Since this can’t be removed while the engine in the car bolted  in, I wonder if it can be installed 

[drovak]

The rod can be removed from the engine, though it required lifting the front of the engine enough to clear the frame where the rod was touching. Whether or not it can be jacked up enough from the front when a firewall is in the way is another question; the '32 parts car did not have a firewall in the way and allowed me to jack up the front quite substantially. I suspect you'll manage to do it without removing the engine, but it's not as easy as the '31.