gdmn852 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 To check the ring gear on flywheel there is a cover at bottom of bellhousing held on with 6 bolts if I remember correctly,this will give easy access to see if ring gear is damaged should be able to see if Starter gear is meshing with it .you will be able to see about a third of the flywheel with removing cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdmn852 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Also when ingnition is in off or lock positions ,starter should have no power, My car has a new reproduction harness in it and replicated the original. Perhaps some one did some rewireing that’s causing problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) OK, let me go over some of my trouble shooting that I have done already and I have took some pictures of some of the added electrical components and traced back wires as best as I can. Some wires have been added for the AC system from vintage air and are not clothes covered. That system looks to be separate and is powered by a stand alone new wiring system off the battery terminals themselves. It is not a sloppy install. Also remember that the original (repo) cloth wiring system functioned fine for about 2 weeks after I got the car until the car developed a stumble and miss problem one day. The original starter had also decided to stay engaged a few times prior to this where removing the battery cable stopped it and then could be reattached right after and the starter would act normal then again. It was after changing the ignition ballast resistor on the ignition to coil (checking stumble and miss and the resistor looked bad)and starting is when the retraction spring on the starter failed and the drive would stay engaged. So I bought a high torque twelve volt starter and replaced the old one following his wiring directions. So here we are now. I should also add that on new starter install the one wire to the relay was deleted (taped back) and the single wire connection now connected was checked with a volt meter to show it powered up when pedal was depressed and and powered off when pedal was released. After putting in new starter and wiring up I got in and turned it over a few times. (It did not engage when hooking battery wire up to battery after initial install as will happen now) On the forth time the starter stuck engaged and would not stop until I removed battery terminal again. NOW regardless the instant I hook up the battery, it turns the starter. One a good note whomever did the new harness replacement (prior to conversion) that is in good shape. The conversion is not a mess of hacked wires so let me post a couple pictures and explain what I see. Again, car ran fine for a couple weeks in this set up when I got it Positive battery cable to starter with smaller gauge wire attached to starter post. This is as it was when I received car. No wiring has been changed when it was running driving fine I should add. Only change was going from 2 wire relay to single wire connection at starter as per directions. It tested out fine as per directions. With this wire disconnected or connected it will still turn over when positive is hooked to starter. It will turn over just hooking up positive side to battery with even the single "relay wire removed as well as the yellow cloth wire removed. Did this new starter get fried already? I should add the number tagged 1 is going to starter post Voltage regulator Top wire on Battery terminal is heavy gauge wire. I suspect this comes from starter post? Middle wire marked Gen is coming from Alternator now. Bottom wire marked FLD(?) used to run to generator but is now disconnected and taped back. There is also a ground wire attached between regulator bracket and firewall I just tried the in neutral and with key off and starter will turn if I hook up positive terminal. Edited December 12, 2018 by Brooklyn Beer added info (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 3 hours ago, maok said: Attached a test light to the trigger wire on the starter then start your diagnosis. I can't even attach the positive off the starter to the battery without it turning over. Only that connected. Nothing else. I tested the trigger wire prior to installing and it functioned fine with the pedal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 If I understand correctly, the power to the trigger wire does not switch off after the starter fires the first time. The problem seem to be somewhere in your wiring that does not turn off the trigger wire power. Disconnect the main power (big cable) feed to the starter from the battery then test the circuits that need to turn the trigger wire off with test light . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, maok said: If I understand correctly, the power to the trigger wire does not switch off after the starter fires the first time. The problem seem to be somewhere in your wiring that does not turn off the trigger wire power. Disconnect the main power (big cable) feed to the starter from the battery then test the circuits that need to turn the trigger wire off with test light . If I just connect the battery lead to the starter now after installing new starter and attempting to start, the starter will turn over with no other wire attached. I am afraid to think the new starter fried after install and first attempt at start up when it again got stuck and continued to crank over until battery was disconnected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 So the trigger wire is not connected but the starter still turns over? If so, then most likely the contacts in the solenoid have fused together. Did the starter turn the engine over while you were trying to disconnect the battery wire or was the starter stalled? Any smoke or smell coming from the starter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) After new install and wiring install (existing) the starter and starter system through the pedal functioned as should. It did not turn over when installing. Worked for 3 cranks of about 6 seconds each. On the 4th crank it stuck. This is a new starter with 12 volts on the trigger wire. What would cause the contacts to fuse together? I didn't smell anything or see anything Edited December 12, 2018 by Brooklyn Beer added info (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) When the starter gets stuck/stalled it draws lots of current (with time) from the battery via the main power cable, this will cause the starter to get hot and burn up. Edited December 12, 2018 by maok grammar (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 It took me about 45 seconds to run around and pull the cable. The motor wasn't running just cranking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) Ok, so the starter did not stall, but kept on turning the engine over but the engine did not start? Your battery didn't go flat? Edited December 12, 2018 by maok (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 When it got stuck I switched the key off. The engine did not start as I was cycling the starter in short cranks as the engine had not been started in 3 weeks and it was cold. I did that 3 times giving 10-20 seconds between each attempt. It was on the 4th attempt it stuck and now it just turns over attaching the battery cable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Brooklyn Beer said: and now it just turns over attaching the battery cable. Without the trigger wire connected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 without trigger wire attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) Just attach the battery lead and it's off and running now. It did not do this during install, but was becoming an intermittent issue on the old starter before the retraction spring broke and I replaced with this starter. Edited December 12, 2018 by Brooklyn Beer (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Just now, Brooklyn Beer said: Just attach the battery lead and it's off and running now. It did not do this during install Yep, there is an issue with the solenoid of the starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 What would cause this to happen on a brand new starter? Brand new hi torque 12 volt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Try verifying by pulling the starter out and testing on the bench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 It's almost got to be the starters are pulling way too many amps trying to turn the engine resulting in the contacts in the solenoid welding together. You can take the old starter solenoid apart to see if they have been overheated. Have you checked to see if the starter gear is meshing with the gear on the flywheel properly without binding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, maok said: Try verifying by pulling the starter out and testing on the bench. Never bench tested a starter before. Procedure? Put in a vise and ground and then check by attaching battery lead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Brooklyn Beer said: Never bench tested a starter before. Procedure? Put in a vise and ground and then check by attaching battery lead? Attach the lead/cable to the starter first and then use old terminals on the battery so you dont leave arcing on the battery post or the starter bolt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, Ronnie said: It's almost got to be the starters are pulling way too many amps trying to turn the engine resulting in the contacts in the solenoid welding together. You can take the old starter solenoid apart to see if they have been overheated. Have you checked to see if the starter gear is meshing with the gear on the flywheel properly without binding? This was something I thought about being it has an alternator now installed. Nothing else is going weird with regards to the electrical system in the car. If it is directly linked to a 12 volt battery and only triggered to start by using that battery would an undersized battery cable cause a too high amp draw at start up? It is a stock motor so compression is not an issue for cranking. The sticking issue on the old starter was only "once in a while", while with the new it is now permanent after 30 seconds of cranking time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I guess a battery cable could cause it but if that is the case the cable should be getting really hot when the starter sticks and keeps turning the engine. Be sure the negative battery cable is securely connected to a clean spot on the engine where all that new paint has been scraped off so it makes a good ground. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 Thanks. Still can't find an answer on researching where the high amp load would come from to burn the selenoid contacts shut. Nothing else in the electrical system is acting up. I thought the selenoid was just a switch that comes together to trigger the starter? Are we talking too many amps coming down the trigger wire? Alternator now and not a generator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 The solenoid is more than just a switch that triggers the starter... it is a heavy duty relay, sometimes called a contractor, that powers the starter. The solenoid has a large set of contacts in it that that are closed when the solenoid is energized that connect the battery directly to the starter motor. The contacts are designed to carry the amperage that a starter would draw under normal conditions. The harder the starter has to work to turn the engine the more amperage it will pull. Once the starter draws excessive amperage for an extended period the contacts in the solenoid will overheat causing them to fuse together. When that happens the starter will continue to run even though the power from the key that picks up the solenoid is cut off. On some starters the solenoid also kicks out the Bendix to engage the flywheel via an electromagnet that draws some current as well. I'm not sure if that is the case on your '49 starter or not. This is all speculation but I think your starter is being overloaded for some mechanical reason causing the contacts in the solenoid to overheat. I have known this to happen when the starter isn't properly aligned with the flywheel causing the gear on the starter to be jammed into the teeth on the flywheel making it harder to turn the engine. Some starters, like on the small block Chevy engine, can be shimmed to give the proper clearance between the teeth on starter drive gear and the teeth on the flywheel gear. I don't know if there is any kind of adjustment on your old Buick or not. I'm not certain that is even the problem on your car. I'm just offering some things to check. At this point, since the solenoid contacts appear to be fused together and keeping the starter turning anytime the battery is connected, you are going to have to remedy that problem before moving on to troubleshooting the reason the contacts in the solenoid are sticking. Three question come to mind. 1. Is the new high torque starter intended to be used with a 12 volt battery? 2. Is the solenoid you are using designed for 12 volts? 3. Are you certain the battery cables are clean, tight and in good condition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Unless you got unlucky and got a bad solenoid, sticking contacts is almost alway caused by a low voltage condition: weak battery, thin cables...this includes weak current from the signal that activates the solenoid. The original wiring used the vacuum switch on the carb activating a starter relay which activated the solenoid. If the car still has a starter relay, replace it; if it was eliminated and uses only the switch on the carb (which is not designed to activate the solenoid alone), the add a starter relay or heavy duty push button (eliminating the carb switch) to activate the solenoid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdmn852 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Sounds as if the new solenoid is stuck if it runs with just the battery cable attached should not run unless solenoid is contacting I would pull the flywheel cover and Check ring gear and mesh of gears.on my high torque starter the solenoid did stick I took the two long screws that held it together and separated the stuck contacts then filed down the burnt marks . I think your ring gear and Starter are hanging up overloading the motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdmn852 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Solenoid would be the smaller cylinder is mounted towards the top on your starter,however if you take it apart may void any warranty it may have .I still think that there is a mesh issue on ring gear as others have mentioned as cause of the high load . My car rarely turns over more than six times before it starts.a high electric load will also keep car from starting, not having enough current for ignition system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 13, 2018 Author Share Posted December 13, 2018 10 hours ago, Ronnie said: The solenoid is more than just a switch that triggers the starter... it is a heavy duty relay, sometimes called a contractor, that powers the starter. The solenoid has a large set of contacts in it that that are closed when the solenoid is energized that connect the battery directly to the starter motor. The contacts are designed to carry the amperage that a starter would draw under normal conditions. The harder the starter has to work to turn the engine the more amperage it will pull. Once the starter draws excessive amperage for an extended period the contacts in the solenoid will overheat causing them to fuse together. When that happens the starter will continue to run even though the power from the key that picks up the solenoid is cut off. On some starters the solenoid also kicks out the Bendix to engage the flywheel via an electromagnet that draws some current as well. I'm not sure if that is the case on your '49 starter or not. This is all speculation but I think your starter is being overloaded for some mechanical reason causing the contacts in the solenoid to overheat. I have known this to happen when the starter isn't properly aligned with the flywheel causing the gear on the starter to be jammed into the teeth on the flywheel making it harder to turn the engine. Some starters, like on the small block Chevy engine, can be shimmed to give the proper clearance between the teeth on starter drive gear and the teeth on the flywheel gear. I don't know if there is any kind of adjustment on your old Buick or not. I'm not certain that is even the problem on your car. I'm just offering some things to check. At this point, since the solenoid contacts appear to be fused together and keeping the starter turning anytime the battery is connected, you are going to have to remedy that problem before moving on to troubleshooting the reason the contacts in the solenoid are sticking. Three question come to mind. 1. Is the new high torque starter intended to be used with a 12 volt battery? 2. Is the solenoid you are using designed for 12 volts? 3. Are you certain the battery cables are clean, tight and in good condition? It was a brand new high torque starter designed for 12 volts and was told expressly for mounting on a 1949 model 70. Got it from Bobs. Battery cables are new. Might be undersized at a 6 so will upgrade it to a number 4. This system was working with the old stock starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 13, 2018 Author Share Posted December 13, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, old-tank said: Unless you got unlucky and got a bad solenoid, sticking contacts is almost alway caused by a low voltage condition: weak battery, thin cables...this includes weak current from the signal that activates the solenoid. The original wiring used the vacuum switch on the carb activating a starter relay which activated the solenoid. If the car still has a starter relay, replace it; if it was eliminated and uses only the switch on the carb (which is not designed to activate the solenoid alone), the add a starter relay or heavy duty push button (eliminating the carb switch) to activate the solenoid. The new high torque starter doesn't have a relay on it like a stock starter and was told it is not needed. Unless the device on the stock starter isn't a relay? Where on the 1949 model 70 would I find the relay if this above is the case. When I tested the trigger wire it was not under load from the starting system and showed 12.4 volts when I depressed the pedal and that was though the carb switch. Battery was at 12.6 volts. If the electrical system (Now has alternator for AC) was under stress turning the starter would this decrease the voltage pushed through the trigger wire to the selonoid? Or if the vacuum switch is weak would the same occur under load and not show up with the opposite? As much as I like the idea of the pedal start I am starting to see the simplicity of a push button being more reliable. (?) It never failed me in any of my other vehicles. I am assuming I would tie into the key switch going to the pedal start and just remove that wire. Then new lead to an under dash 12 volt push button with new lead to the starter selenoid. Should a fuse go in this or would the existing on the ignition already cover that. And what gauge wire would be best suited for this? Thinking I will wire this in leaving the stock wiring intact. Is there any issue that will arise with the carb vacuum switch not being used and left attached? Edited December 13, 2018 by Brooklyn Beer added info (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1956322 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 If you wanna do a push button I'd keep it a simple as possible.. In my case..10 gauge wire from directly from the battery to one side of switch..10 gauge wire from other side of switch to solenoid.. Yes it's hot at all times been like this for years in my daily driver never a problem in fact sometimes it's handy to be able to crank engine with ignition off 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 13, 2018 Author Share Posted December 13, 2018 9 minutes ago, 1956322 said: If you wanna do a push button I'd keep it a simple as possible.. In my case..10 gauge wire from directly from the battery to one side of switch..10 gauge wire from other side of switch to solenoid.. Yes it's hot at all times been like this for years in my daily driver never a problem in fact sometimes it's handy to be able to crank engine with ignition off Car wiring has never been my bread and butter. Would I just then disconnect the wire at the carb switch which would keep the key ignition intact and run a new lead like you say? Would disconnecting the wire into the carb switch cause problems with the ignition circuit or is that a separate deal all together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 It will be interesting to see what solution your find that corrects your starter problems. Please keep us informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 13, 2018 Author Share Posted December 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, Ronnie said: It will be interesting to see what solution your find that corrects your starter problems. Please keep us informed. Trust me, I am too. I am upgrading the battery cable to number 2 to start. Contacting starter manufacturer tomorrow to see if I get any warranty on this fried new one if not I will take it apart and see what I got. Our AC control guys will be at the job tomorrow so perhaps they have an idea on the solenoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, Brooklyn Beer said: Contacting starter manufacturer tomorrow to see if I get any warranty Pick their brain and ask them why they think the solenoid contacts stick closed and keep the starter running until you remove the battery cable. They have probably been down this road before... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1956322 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Completely ignore the carb switch stuff it will serve no purpose and have no affect on the ignition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 13, 2018 Author Share Posted December 13, 2018 12 hours ago, Ronnie said: 15 minutes ago, 1956322 said: Completely ignore the carb switch stuff it will serve no purpose and have no affect on the ignition So just disconnect from the leaving side of the carb switch and leave alone. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1956322 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 You can leave it hooked up or tape it off.. The wires going to the starter relay I'd disconnect from the relay and tape off as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Get this Use as a test device before installing a starter button. Connect to battery (+) and 'S' terminal on solenoid. Just be sure car is out of gear when you crank with the key 'on'. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1956322 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Not a bad idea.. Any auto parts store will have a remote starter as well..10-15 bucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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