Alex D. Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 I am looking for information on replacing the Detroit lubricator model 51 with the Zenith-Bendix carburetor. I have read topics where this conversion has been done with good success but no information on the source and model numbers was given. I am finishing up the rebuild on my 32 v12 and the Zenith-Bendix conversion may be the most practical and economical route for me to explore. Alex D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Bourque Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex D. Posted April 24, 2018 Author Share Posted April 24, 2018 Those are beautiful carburetors and I’m sure the company went to a great expense to reproduce them. They have a price of $6950.00 for the pair. I would like to explore all options which would include new carbs, rebuilding what I have, and the Zenith conversion. Alex D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Alex, I take it you are rather new to the hobby or having you first experience with a multi cylinder pre war CCCA Classic. Replacing factory components with more modern units defeats the whole purpose of restoring and rebuilding you engine, as well as the entire car. Just because something is less expensive and more modern doesn’t mean you can and will make the car run correctly. Very few people can swap out carbs and tune the car correctly. Running a V-12 Cadillac lean will burn the valves in very short order, I have seen it done. Correct modification of the fuel system would require expertise and experience which almost no one has today, a chassis dyno, a five gas analyzer, a distributor machine, and a familiarity with Cadillac V-12 cars both stock and modified. I can think of less than five people who I would trust to do it, and I have been at this with Cadillacs for forty years. I have purchased new units from the seller you posted. For a Packard, not a Cadillac. These units are VERY, VERY NICE. I would NOT recommend anyone install,them without a five gas machine and chassis dyno. I could write pages and pages on this subject. It would be easier to speak to you on the phone. I only recommend you run stock parts and components. Reguardless of who makes and manufactures reproduction parts for any car, and application, weather a carb, door handle, or hub cap one MUST NOT ASSUME the item is correct and will function and be safe until you inspect the part in its entirety. While I can confirm the Packard carb looks, functions, and was made very well, inexperience and manufacturing methods that differ from the factory originals don’t necessarily make them a bolt on and run item. Modern fuel, modern materials, etc all mean that each application should be verified and tested before driving the car down the street. I have seen identicle carbs switched between correct identicle year cars burn valves and pistons while on tour. If your missing your factory carbs, replacements will be the only route possible to proceed. Remember, the reason they are being reproduced is there are problems with the originals. David is a great guy and lots of fun to work with. Call and talk to him. Most importantly take you time, figure out how you are going to solve your issues. A well thought out plan is important. Send me you number by PM if you like with a good time to call if you want some additional help. Good luck, Ed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Alex - we did several of the conversions 25~30 years ago, but replacing the Johnson carbs on the earlier 12 because of reliability, not the Detroits. I don't remember ever doing the conversion replacing the original Detroit carbs. Ed mentioned that very few individuals swap out carbs and have them tuned correctly. I would more or less agree, for two reasons: (1) the wrong carb is selected, often because of price, and (2) the seller and owner are unaware of what must be done to the carbs to make them work. But, there are even fewer individuals that can make a Johnson perform well, and maybe nobody that can make one reliable. Hence, our developing the swap. A few things to consider: (1) the Zenith we used was O-10870 (we bought the ENTIRE existing inventory from Zenith, and we are now out!). (2) THERE IS NO CURRENT PRODUCTION BENDIX-ZENITH THAT MAY BE USED FOR THE SWAP! (3) The O-10870 was NOT a plug-and-play bolt-on swap, it required internal and external modification. (4) And even modified, it required adjustment when installed. Did they work? Yes, exceptionally well (but so do the original Detroit carbs). I have not seen David's reproduction of the Detroit. I do know I have spoken with him several times years ago, and sent him a lot of Detroit parts and information (we have rebuilt hundreds of Detroits over the years, so had a wee bit of experience with them). No, I no longer rebuild, too busy with the manufacture of parts, so please don't call asking me to rebuild yours. And just for the record, on my scale of 1 awful to 10 wonderful: Zenith 10870 - 9.5 Detroit - 9.5 Johnson - minus 3.0 If you have an original set of Detroits, there are still a few in the business that CAN refurbish them correctly, if you have patience. Anyone that is any good has a backlog! I would suggest giving Ed or David a call, or I will be happy to speak with you as well. My number 573-392-7378 (9-4 Mon-Tues ONLY central time). Jon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex D. Posted April 26, 2018 Author Share Posted April 26, 2018 Carbking Thanks for the reply: this is the information that I was looking for. If this conversion is no longer obtainable I will proceed with rebuilding my originals. I have disassembled one carburetor and it appears to be in fair condition. The throttle shaft is worn and should be replaced. The torsion springs at the choke and throttle arm are rusted and need replaced. The housings show no signs of cracks or distortion. Now I need the repair parts. Alex D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex D. Posted April 26, 2018 Author Share Posted April 26, 2018 Edinmass I have been in the hobby for 50 years; however this is my “first experience with a multi cylinder pre war CCCA Classic”. My main purpose is to get an old classic back on the road to be enjoyed. I do not have the deep pockets necessary to properly restore this old Cadillac to pebble beach standards hence the reason for alternatives. All suggestions and advice is appreciated. Alex D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 Alex - please take no offense at this post, as I am not posting for that intent, merely to offer advice. First, remember that I no longer rebuild, only supply parts, so NOT grinding my own ax! The Detroit Lubricator (opinion) is one of the finest of the updraft carburetors. It is also one of the most misunderstood, and has a steep learning curve. Why? The Detroit model such as yours was used only on Cadillacs, Grahams, and Packards. So the average mechanic did not see as many as Carters, Strombergs, Zeniths, etc. Also, Detroit Lubricator did NOT have a retail division such as Carter, Stromberg, and Zenith. Why is this important? Because there are NO factory books, brochures, instructions, etc. other than in the literature of Cadillac, Graham and Packard. 40 years ago, I started to do a book on the Detroits. I acquired the Graham and Packard literature (never found the Cadillac), and then "life" happened, and the book got unwritten. The Detroit Lubricator was an early form of variable venturi carburetor, and it has MANY "gotchas" which are not found in any of the literature; one only finds them through experience. Once properly rebuilt, they are quite reliable. For the above reasons, I would suggest you consider having these carbs professionally rebuilt (remember, I don't do this any longer, just supply parts). I understand budget constraints; Dad always accused me of "having champagne tastes and beer income". I wanted an XK-E, and settled for a TR-3 (still would like to have an XK-E but it won't happen in this lifetime). I am reminded of a gentleman a long time ago that sent me a Carter BB-1 (Chrysler 1932) for restoration. I called and quoted him $500. for the job. He said "that's too much, send it home" which I did. About 2 months later, I received it back, mostly apart, and butchered; with a note, please rebuild. I called him again with a $1200. estimate. He asked why. I bluntly informed him that he had done $700. worth of damage. This time, he OK'ed the rebuild. Just food for thought! One carburetor restoration company of which I am aware that does excellent work is Classic Carburetors in Phoenix. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 Also contact Classic & Exotic Service in Troy, MI. 248-362-0113. They are a top quality shop dealing with the high end Classics. They are also noted for fast turnaround time. Be sure to ask for a time estimate from any prospective candidate. Some shops have a wait list 6 months or more out. Mark down in Arizona rebuilt a Cadillac Johnson carburetor for me about 25 years ago. Truly SUPERB quality.!! I was so happy with their work that I recently called about another Johnson for rebuild. 6 mo. wait list.!!! So I called C&E who had done an astonishingly better than new rebuild on a distributor for me with a lightning fast turnaround. Again, their work was of the highest possible quality in very short order. To me, obtaining premium quality work from a shop who have impossible to find, better than original, repro components, is a no brainer. At ANY price. Well, I feel that C&E delivers a BARGAIN ! Plus , we mere and humble mortals are given the service we might expect if we were one of the billionaires they have as customers !!! Factor in the "time is money" component in whatever endeavor. Particularly so when we are old. You might say "time is life". Many forum members have used C&E, and all have given top reviews here. When you call, ask for Bruce. He is a Cad-LaSalle club member. By the way, are you a member? If so, (or if not as a spectator anyway), it might be fun and productive for you to attend the CLC Grand National in June in San Antonio Texas. You can be 100% sure that Event in that location will have quite a few 12 & 16 cylinder Cadillacs. Hoping you are back on the road again soon , - Cadillac Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex D. Posted April 26, 2018 Author Share Posted April 26, 2018 Carbking No offence has been taken and your advice is greatly appreciated. I am glad you can relate to my Champaign taste on a beer income. I am confident that I can rebuild these carburetors as long as I can acquire the correct parts to do so. I would rather be able to say that I tried and failed, than to have never tried at all. Do you supply parts for these carburetors? Alex D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex D. Posted April 26, 2018 Author Share Posted April 26, 2018 C Carl I did contact Classic and Exotic service. They had a repair kit for the Johnson on their web site but not much for the Detroit. When I ask vie email there response was “We can only supply the parts shown on our website and don't know where you can get other parts.” How can they rebuild the carburetors if they don’t know where to get the parts! Alex D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 6 minutes ago, Alex D. said: Carbking No offence has been taken and your advice is greatly appreciated. I am glad you can relate to my Champaign taste on a beer income. I am confident that I can rebuild these carburetors as long as I can acquire the correct parts to do so. I would rather be able to say that I tried and failed, than to have never tried at all. Do you supply parts for these carburetors? Alex D. Depends on what you need. I know we are out of vane boxes, and the company that cast them for us many years ago changed hands, and threw away our molds! Let me know your "laundry list" and will see what we have. One of the reasons I recommended Classic Carbs in Phoenix is that they have a machine shop along with the carb rebuilding. They are quite capable of machining what they require. And 6 months for quality carb rebuilding is really pretty quick. I need to recommend them more often! When our backlog hit 3 1/2 years, we simply said "no more"! Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 (edited) Alex, Jon, and interested forum readers. : Now I absolutely MUST contact Bruce for clarification. I will do so ASAP. I do have a recurring relationship with him, so am happy to do the legwork not only for your sake, but for my own. If I am skipping around the forum recommending something, I'd best know what I am talking about. The only D.L. experience I have is watching Hippie Jim get one going which had been sleeping on a '34 Cad V8 for many years. Impressive how well Ol' Hip' got the '34 running. Poor Jim Skuse. My good friend who had lived the thrills of a carrier based flight navigator, died of a massive heart attack in his mid 40s 30 years ago. R.I.P. , Hip'. A heavy smoker. Whatever you do, please do it without the "ciggies". Now the occasional, or frequent light dose of Champagne or beer, why that's a different matter entirely ! To your health !!! - CC Edited April 26, 2018 by C Carl Spelling (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 Hey : For all I know maybe C&E contribute to the wait time by sending their D.L. jobs to Arizona. But as I say, I will call quickly. And Jon, thank you as always for the monumental service you provide by freely giving of your time and wisdom to your grateful friends here. You are second to none.!! - CC 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 Left msg for Bruce. - CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 O.K. Bruce can rebuild your carbs. BUT it depends on the questionable condition of your castings. There can be warping or swelling of the pot metal on a small enough scale that you can not see. It could cause the float to hang up if there is a misalignment for example. We did speculate on whether the company making the repro's could supply the castings if needed. Since we could only - - - FLASH ! BRAINSTORM !! I realized that I should not SPECULATE, or assume ANYTHING. So I picked up the phone and called David at Cad-Carb. I have now spent 3 hours, almost all of it on the phone with Bruce and David. Yes, David (who is a real Pro - and even older than I am) CAN supply the castings. So, the bottom line is all I have time for at this point : it MAY be a good idea for you to take a stab at rebuilding yourself around the Silicon-bronze investment cast CNC replacement parts to get rid of the potmetal pieces you now have. David would be happy to guide you at any or all steps along ehe way. Now for me to thumb tap all the reasons and options operating here would be an inefficient use of your time and mine. And these guys have business needs for their time. I have been asked to relay info to you by phone, so that you can hit the ground running with them, thereby respecting THEIR precious time. I can offer a short (???) synopsis here later, I am understandably running behind for today now. Please call me to discuss this in an efficient back and forth format. I promise you it will be worth YOUR time. Your forum friend, - Carl. 206-790-6912 or 408-621-8261 you may call any time, might have to leave msg & I'll call back. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Glad to see help being offered, and accepted. Be aware that the internal passages of these early carbs can be totally blocked off due to dirt, rust, contaminants and METAL FAILURE AND WARPAGE. I have taken apart countless carbs that have been "restored or rebuilt" by experts. I often find they didn't even compleatly dissassemble the carb. By the time a car has sat around for twenty, thirty, or forty years rebuilding the carb is probably going to be beyond MOST back yard and hobbiest abilities. Having been involved with manufacturing hundreds of different carburator parts for production and specially application over the last twenty five years; I find often people"want to buy the kit" and do it themselves. Then they discover worn throttle or choke shafts, body castings warped and gaskets will no longer seal gasoline, special tools needed to correctly disassemble the carb are not available and the home restorer then damages the casting or part, often times beyond repair. Sometimes in life, you save money by spending more not less........... this hobby is expensive, as are CCCA multi cylinder cars. I understand the budget idea, my first chrome as a teen was spray can silver paint. With the danger of fire, damaging expensive and difficult to find parts, and the chance of breaking down on the road and needing a tow home, money spent having the carbs done right is a good investment. It will add to the value of the car. Also, pull the gas tank, clean it and check the function of the sending unit. Flush ALL the fuel lines, for SEVERAL HOURS using a electric fuel pump to circulate the cleaning fluid, rebuild the mechanical pump, and add a boost/emergency electric fuel pump for convenience. Pull the distributor and set it up on a distributor tester, replace the condensers, check the coils, install a new battery AND cables, then just add gas.....ready to start.......NOT drive. Its incredible how many people rebuild carbs, and place them on a car with a rusty gas tank with twenty year old gas and expect the car to run like new.........I have seen it countless times. There are no shortcuts to a good running car...........do all the under hood and chassis components. Then you can enjoy your car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 I have bought reproduction Packard Carbs and also parts - NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENCE ON HOW A PACKARD RUNS ! He also sells Packard carb parts. If you get in a bind I would ask if you need a specific part for your Cadillac carb. And, for years I have known people who try to retrofit an X to their car = works, but car just never is what it should be in running or authenticity. Have a year or two of PB&J lunches and get a reproduction set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex D. Posted June 2, 2018 Author Share Posted June 2, 2018 With all the great help and advice from members of this forum I am confident in rebuilding these DL carburetors. I have learned a lot from conversations with Jon (Carb King) and David at Cad-Carb. David has supplied me with butterfly shafts, spring kit and bowl covers. The gas tank has been removed and sent to Gas Tank RenU. They will open up the tank, sand blast and coat the inside. The fuel line will be replaced from the tank to the pump. About 40 years ago I bought a 1930 Buick 60 series. I needed to drive it about 20 miles to a storage garage. I had a good friend following behind. We must have stopped every 2 miles to clean the fuel bowl from the rust coming from the tank. To this day I am still reminded of that adventure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 From our conversations I have great confidence in you, Alex. With David's parts being available to you, I expect to see you on the road soon. If someone gives me a winning lottery ticket, I will be contacting you to do the carbs on my "barn find" V-16! - Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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