1965 riviera voltage regulator - electric choke

[moran75]

Hi

 

ive spliced an electric choke into brown terminal 4 of regulator ... with engine off my test light is barely lighting on positive terminal of choke .

 

Time did not allow to further investigate whilst at the car.

 

Thinking about it , at first I put it down to maybe using a smaller gauge of wire for the choke splice.

 

However, although it’s probably wise to use the same gauge wire as the brown originating from regulator for the splice to the choke, I’m now thinking that when engine is actually started, maybe the regulator will increase voltage from terminal 4/brown to the choke?

 

Would there be any truth in my theory?

 

many thanks

 

Kev

[RivNut]

When I hooked up my electric choke, I ran a dedicated line from the oil pressure switch.  You need an oil pressure switch fr9m a GM vehicle that used this system originally.  Three prongs.  One is for the wire to the pressure gauge.  The other two - one is for a 12V source and the other goes to the choke.  Doing this means that the choke coil is not being heated until the engine is running.  Standard Motor Products #PS64.  You may have to use an adapter 

Edited February 6, 2018 by RivNut (see edit history)

[Seafoam65]

                 Do NOT hook the choke to the voltage regulator wiring! To clarify, Ed's method is designed to

not let the choke open unless the engine is running, so if you just have the key on for some reason, the choke

will not open. In actuality, this is kind of overkill because how often do you turn on the ignition and not start the car?

A downside to Ed's method is that a bad oil pressure switch can cause the choke to close on you and leave you stranded

by the side of the road with a flooding carburetor. GM cars that had this setup had a red choke light on the instrument cluster to warn you when the choke

wasn't getting power to it, not that this actually kept you from getting stranded!

The simple  more reliable way to solve this is to tap into the orange wire going to the kickdown on the carburetor. Buick also used

this orange wire to tap into in order to mount the auxiliary headlight visor relay.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[Bloo]

2 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

In actuality, this is kind of overkill because how often do you turn on the ignition and not start the car?

 

Not often, just often enough to get stuck.

 

P. S. Some 1980s GM products did trigger the electric choke from the charging system.

[moran75]

Many thanks all

[moran75]

3 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

                 Do NOT hook the choke to the voltage regulator wiring! To clarify, Ed's method is designed to

not let the choke open unless the engine is running, so if you just have the key on for some reason, the choke

will not open. In actuality, this is kind of overkill because how often do you turn on the ignition and not start the car?

A downside to Ed's method is that a bad oil pressure switch can cause the choke to close on you and leave you stranded

by the side of the road with a flooding carburetor. GM cars that had this setup had a red choke light on the instrument cluster to warn you when the choke

wasn't getting power to it, not that this actually kept you from getting stranded!

The simple  more reliable way to solve this is to tap into the orange wire going to the kickdown on the carburetor. Buick also used

this orange wire to tap into in order to mount the auxiliary headlight visor relay.

Re advice not to link up to voltage regulator....is this on a safety basis or just that the kick down is easier? Always looking to learn, you see ...I was under impression that brown terminal 4 just goes to ACC on ignition switch so wold be a viable option ?

All the best

Kev

 

 

 

 

[1965rivgs]

Hi Kevin,

  You could also use a switched wire from one of the existing switched circuits to control a relay which transfers and carries the current to the choke coil. Using the relay will make it less likely you will blow a fuse on the original switched circuit and, compared to wiring the choke coil directly thru the switch,  reduce the amps going thru the ignition switch. Just a thought...

  Tom Mooney

[1965rivgs]

21 hours ago, RivNut said:

When I hooked up my electric choke, I ran a dedicated line from the oil pressure switch.  You need an oil pressure switch fr9m a GM vehicle that used this system originally.  Three prongs.  One is for the wire to the pressure gauge.  The other two - one is for a 12V source and the other goes to the choke.  Doing this means that the choke coil is not being heated until the engine is running.  Standard Motor Products #PS64.  You may have to use an adapter 

Ed,

  When you reference the "pressure gauge" are you refering to the idot light?

  Tom

[RivNut]

On the 1st generation Rivieras,  it would be the light.. On the car for which tbe part number was originally dexigned, it could a light or a gauge, 

[1965rivgs]

2 minutes ago, RivNut said:

On the 1st generation Rivieras,  it would be the light.. On the car for which tbe part number was originally dexigned, it could a light or a gauge, 

So the switch pictured provides a full ground on one prong and connects the remaining two prongs together when it senses oil pressure?

It cant be for both an idiot light and a gauge...the idiot light is controlled by a switch which is either "on" or "off" and a gauge is controlled by varying resistance to ground.

  Tom

[Seafoam65]

5 hours ago, moran75 said:

Re advice not to link up to voltage regulator....is this on a safety basis or just that the kick down is easier? Always looking to learn, you see ...I was under impression that brown terminal 4 just goes to ACC on ignition switch so wold be a viable option ?

All the best

Kev

 

Kev.......it just isn't a good idea to add things to the voltage regulator circuit. The circuitry is the most complex and sensitive on the entire car. It might

turn out OK but why risk it, and the orange wire is right next to the carburetor, a much more logical source of ignition power, and if you develop a short circuit for some reason   and blow a fuse, all you

will lose is the headlamp visors closing and the windshield wipers, not the charging system that will leave you stranded by the side of the road, and you won't wind up blowing the diodes out of your alternator.

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2018 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

One might guess that the oil pressure switch is actually two switches.  The first connects one terminal to ground. It opens when there is oil pressure, thereby removing the ground from the idiot light. The other connects the remaining two terminals when there is pressure, thereby sending 12V to the choke.

[RivNut]

53 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

So the switch pictured provides a full ground on one prong and connects the remaining two prongs together when it senses oil pressure?

It cant be for both an idiot light and a gauge...the idiot light is controlled by a switch which is either "on" or "off" and a gauge is controlled by varying resistance to ground.

  Tom

All I know is that the "sender" that I installed works as I stated.  It provides 12V to the electric choke and as soon as there's oil pressure, the light goes out.  So, it must be one for a light on the original application.

[KongaMan]

I don't know that it makes sense to use a relay for the choke if you're using the later oil pressure switch.  In that case, you can run any 12V feed (e.g. directly from the battery) straight to the switch and on to the choke.  You could tap the battery connection at the alternator somewhat unobtrusively (perhaps adding an inline fuse).  If you forego the switch and tap into a switched circuit to activate the choke, a relay might be a wise choice -- but you'll still need to get the 12V from somewhere.  Even then, you'll probably want to tap a circuit that's hot only when the engine is running rather than simply based on the position of the ignition switch.  That, again, seems to suggest the alternator.  Tapping an alternator wire to power a relay shouldn't mess with the charging circuit.

[RivNut]

If you take the advice set forth earlier about tapping the 12V wire that runs to the kick-down/switch pitch, that wire also supplies 12V to the wipers so that's where it's fused.

[1965rivgs]

4 hours ago, RivNut said:

All I know is that the "sender" that I installed works as I stated.  It provides 12V to the electric choke and as soon as there's oil pressure, the light goes out.  So, it must be one for a light on the original application.

That is a neat switch. Back in the `80`s I vaguely recall doing a short article in The Riview utilizing a 2 prong switch as folks were interested in doing the electric choke conversion then. At the time I was working on the last of the carburetor cars and such a switch was commonly seen. I dont recall the 3 prong variety. Did you use a pre-made pigtail to keep from mixing up the wires? Potentially running a 12 volt source to ground would not work out well!

  Tom

[RivNut]

As I wired mine, the one wire to the oil light was the original wire.  I used one color for the other wire. Both into the the sender (switch) and out of the sender to one of the terminals on the electric choke housing. Then a separate black wire from the other terminal on the choke housing to a ground.  The sender is only an inline switch between the 12V source (In my case the aforementioned hot wire for the kickdown/wipers) and the ground wire out of the choke housing.  

 

Here's a diagram that I sketched showing how I wired it.  Colors on the sketch are just what I had available. Oops, I just now noticed I didn't label the choke coil, but you can figure that one out.

 

 

 

 

[KongaMan]

4 hours ago, RivNut said:

If you take the advice set forth earlier about tapping the 12V wire that runs to the kick-down/switch pitch, that wire also supplies 12V to the wipers so that's where it's fused.

 

But then, there was other advice about not further overloading the circuits through the ignition switch.  

 

Seems a peculiar bit of wiring, though: the wipers seize up so the tranny won't downshift.

 

On a tangential note, the more I look at this, the less extravagant it seems to add a starter relay right next to the horn relay/junction box.  Everything you need is right there, and you can do it all without cutting or splicing anything.

 

 

[RivNut]

Electric chokes require very little in the way of juice.  Using a relay seems unnecessary.   If Jon The Carbking were to delve into this topic, he'd tell us to get the hot air choke working properly.

7 minutes ago, KongaMan said:

Seems a peculiar bit of wiring, though: the wipers seize up so the tranny won't downshift.

I guess if the wipers freezing up would cause the fuse to blow, then, yes, you'd have no kick down.   

[KongaMan]

1 hour ago, RivNut said:

Electric chokes require very little in the way of juice.  Using a relay seems unnecessary.

 

That's true enough, but (if tapping the wiper lead) that little bit is just another straw on the already-breaking camel's back through the ACC circuit and the ignition switch.

 

To be clear, I wouldn't use a dedicated relay in that situation -- but I would look into it if I decided to trigger from the alternator instead.  Remember, that wiper circuit is hot (and hence your choke is energized) if you're just sitting in Lover's Lane listening to the radio. Using the alternator or the oil pressure switch ensures that the choke is activated by the engine rather than the key.

 

[1965rivgs]

7 hours ago, RivNut said:

As I wired mine, the one wire to the oil light was the original wire.  I used one color for the other wire. Both into the the sender (switch) and out of the sender to one of the terminals on the electric choke housing. Then a separate black wire from the other terminal on the choke housing to a ground.  The sender is only an inline switch between the 12V source (In my case the aforementioned hot wire for the kickdown/wipers) and the ground wire out of the choke housing.  

 

Here's a diagram that I sketched showing how I wired it.  Colors on the sketch are just what I had available. Oops, I just now noticed I didn't label the choke coil, but you can figure that one out.

 

 

 

 

Hi Ed,

  Yes, I thoroughly understand how the circuits could potentially work thru the switch. My mention of a pigtail would ensure that the wires are placed on their proper terminals as originally intended if someone disconnects them for service, etc...but that is because originally I assumed the path to ground for the oil pressure light is thru the sender mounting to the engine block. But thinking about a simpler switch design it is more likely the switch connects all three terminals to ground thru the choke coil. Do you know what path the voltage from the oil pressure light circuit takes to ground? Thanks,

  Tom

[moran75]

7 hours ago, RivNut said:

Electric chokes require very little in the way of juice.  Using a relay seems unnecessary.   If Jon The Carbking were to delve into this topic, he'd tell us to get the hot air choke working properly.

I guess if the wipers freezing up would cause the fuse to blow, then, yes, you'd have no kick down.   

Rather humourously the prior owner of the car - for reasons only known to them - tried re-routing the hot air stove pipe up to the choke. He drilled a hole in the top side of the manifold to accompolish  this, and the 'old' original nipple was removed and left unplugged... Luckily he didn't tap into the exhaust gasses, but sadly missed the tube that heats the air as well!....So electric choke it is...

[moran75]

thanks for all for the comments - who new electric chokes could be so much fun! Unfortunately i'm forced into this course of action due to circumstances beyond my control....would have preferred to keep the how air, seems so much more simpler...

[moran75]

22 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

                 Do NOT hook the choke to the voltage regulator wiring! To clarify, Ed's method is designed to

not let the choke open unless the engine is running, so if you just have the key on for some reason, the choke

will not open. In actuality, this is kind of overkill because how often do you turn on the ignition and not start the ca

A downside to Ed's method is that a bad oil pressure switch can cause the choke to close on you and leave you stranded

by the side of the road with a flooding carburetor. GM cars that had this setup had a red choke light on the instrument cluster to warn you when the choke

wasn't getting power to it, not that this actually kept you from getting stranded!

The simple  more reliable way to solve this is to tap into the orange wire going to the kickdown on the carburetor. Buick also used

this orange wire to tap into in order to mount the auxiliary headlight visor relay.

..would it be a good idea to add an in line fuse for the spliced choke?....The orange wire for the kick down will be fused but i'm guessing a much higher amp than the 2A i think i'll need for the choke? Im basing the 2A on the 10.5 ohms resistance of the coil...as i said, im learning so i might be barking completely up the wrong tree...

 

Kev

[Seafoam65]

                     Kev, I've wired 100's of electric chokes to the hot feed to the wiper motor over the years on GM cars and I've never seen

any problems with the setup and I've never seen a fuse get blown. The heater element on the electric choke would never cause a short,

the only short you could have is from not routing the wire to the choke properly and it getting pinched somehow. A relay is absolutely unnecessary

for an electric choke. They pull a very small amount of current.  If you route the wire properly, you won't have any problems. you could

put a fuse in the choke wire but in my opinion it would be overkill and not needed.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[retiredmechanic74]

I've always connected the choke to ign 2 on the alternator. That connection is key controlled. The choke is only needed to start the car once the car is running the choke pull off opens the choke to a specified degree to keep the engine from loading up with gas and stalling and the choke at that point becomes irrelevant and heats up to open fully, once that happens the choke pull off becomes irrelevant on a 2 barrel carb and a restraint for the secondaries on a 4 barrel.  The choke was designed to open in tune with the intake manifold heating up because cold air and cold gas won't atomize properly that's why there is an exhaust port located under the carb base. Just some F.Y.I. for those who are not familiar with how the choke works. 

[KongaMan]

8 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

Hi Ed,

  Yes, I thoroughly understand how the circuits could potentially work thru the switch. My mention of a pigtail would ensure that the wires are placed on their proper terminals as originally intended if someone disconnects them for service, etc...but that is because originally I assumed the path to ground for the oil pressure light is thru the sender mounting to the engine block. But thinking about a simpler switch design it is more likely the switch connects all three terminals to ground thru the choke coil. Do you know what path the voltage from the oil pressure light circuit takes to ground? Thanks,

  Tom

 

Do you mean a SPDT switch or a DPST switch?  That is, are you thinking that all three terminals will be connected together or that only one circuit (either the light or the choke power) will be grounded at a time?

 

I'm also thinking that if you ground the light through the choke, then the light will be dim (because the choke coil is another resistance).  For that reason, I'd think that the switch grounds light through the block (that is, through the threads of the switch housing).

 

It also begs the question about how the choke works.  Is there current through the coil whenever the car is running, or is there an internal switch that disengages the coil once the choke is open?

[RivNut]

11 minutes ago, KongaMan said:

 

Do you mean a SPDT switch or a DPST switch?  That is, are you thinking that all three terminals will be connected together or that only one circuit (either the light or the choke power) will be grounded at a time?

 

I'm also thinking that if you ground the light through the choke, then the light will be dim (because the choke coil is another resistance).  For that reason, I'd think that the switch grounds light through the block (that is, through the threads of the switch housing).

 

It also begs the question about how the choke works.  Is there current through the coil whenever the car is running, or is there an internal switch that disengages the coil once the choke is open?

Chances are that if there weren't a full time current flowing through the choke coil, it could cool and close the choke.

 

The oil pressure "idiot light" works as the original with the sender grounding through the block.  

 

I think the reason that Tom suggests a three prong terminal is to ensure that there's no wrong way to connect the wires.  It's only important to get the oil light correct.  The other two are interchangeable, they're only carrying a current from the fuse box (or other power source) to the choke coil.

[1965rivgs]

1 hour ago, RivNut said:

Chances are that if there weren't a full time current flowing through the choke coil, it could cool and close the choke.

 

The oil pressure "idiot light" works as the original with the sender grounding through the block.  

 

I think the reason that Tom suggests a three prong terminal is to ensure that there's no wrong way to connect the wires.  It's only important to get the oil light correct.  The other two are interchangeable, they're only carrying a current from the fuse box (or other power source) to the choke coil.

Yes Ed, my apprehension is, if the ground is provided thru the switch to the block, that if someone connects the power source for the choke coil to the wrong terminal it will be a direct short to ground. I think I will order a switch and break out a DVOM to see how it works. Thanks for posting a pic of the switch and the part #

  Tom

[RivNut]

Tom,

 

I think that's the switch that I installed, but there are others like it.  Before purchasing one, as you said, make sure it's one for a light and not a gauge.  I may have just been lucky when I bought mine.

 

Ed