My official 1936 D2 sedan resurrection thread

[Pete in PA]

Interesting.  I stopped at the Dodge Garage on my way home from work today.  There's no number stamped on my car's crank, at least not one that I could find.  The letters "MOWOG" or possibly "MOWO6 " are stamped on the side of the 6" straight section between the crank handle and the long section.  Pic later.

[keiser31]

Can you get me dimensions of that crank? I have one that I think is for a 1936 DB.

Edited March 19, 2020 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[keiser31]

The 5 1/4" and 6 3/4" dimensions are from centers.

Edited March 19, 2020 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[Pete in PA]

22 hours ago, 36 D2 Coupe said:

Hi Pete

Just a question - my crank has a part number on it - 598306 - do you have a number on yours? I tried to find this number in the parts books without success. Maybe they didn't list tool part numbers. The number is near the bend on the long shaft on mine.

Looking in the 1935 parts book I see that the crank is listed as 642571 and that it was a brand new part number for 1935.  Given that I wonder if your crank marked 598306 is from an older car.  I have had very poor luck matching up part numbers found on my car with parts in the parts manual yet I continue my attempts at making sense of things.  What's the definition of insanity???

The 1936-1942 parts book shows the crank as a two-piece affair having part numbers 642571 (the handle part) and 651998 (the long, straight section with cross piece at the end).  This makes even less sense because only 1936 models show the handle part as relevant but the straight section is used for 1937-1942!  (That straight piece is 668255 for 1937 and for 1938-1942 it's 699105.  I guess the illustration doesn't apply for the 1937-1942 cars.

I'd love to look at the Chrysler, DeSoto, and Plymouth books for the 1935-1937 cars but given my poor success with the Dodge books I won't waste money buying them.

[36 D2 Coupe]

You could be right with your comments Pete. The crank I have did not come with the car and so the part number could very well be for an earlier year. But it fits and works fine. That explains why I cant' locate that part number in my parts books.

Isn't this fun??

[Pete in PA]

It was a good day.  It took hours and a trip to Home Depot (which is on crowd control and reduced hours now) plus multiple tool attempts to find the right way to remove the coolant distribution tube.  About an hour ago I levered the needle nose vise grip and that tube slid out of the block.  We were *so* relieved to get it out in one piece.
Now to find a new one.  My new radiator should arrive later this week.  Hopefully it'll turn out to be a good week.

[36 D2 Coupe]

Congratulations! You sure got lucky with that tube. If you can get a measurement from that tube for me I can check to see whether one of the new tubes I have will fit. Cheap if they work, no harm done if they don't.

[Pete in PA]

What's left of my rusty tube is exactly 23" long.  There may have been another 1/2" at the front before I started to twist, pry, and pull on it.  I'm currently shopping on the web for a replacement tube.  Actually, I'm seeing what's available because i don't know what I need!

[36 D2 Coupe]

OK here's what I have> -Brass tube removed from my D2 engine - 22 3/4"

                                           Steel tubes on hand                                       23 1/4"

 

The positioning of the water outlets is slightly  different on the brass tube than on the steel tube. If you can measure the spacing on the outlets, I can confirm whether the extra tubes I have will work for you.  1/2" doesn't seem like a lot but ???  If you have lost a little bit off the end in the removal process, the ones I have may be what you need.  The measurements should help.

   

[Pete in PA]

On 3/19/2020 at 5:07 PM, keiser31 said:

Can you get me dimensions of that crank? I have one that I think is for a 1936 DB.

 I measured the crank that came with my car.  First column is your crank dimension, second is mine.

28 3/4      30

5 1/4        4 1/2

23 1/2      25

6 3/4        7

There are a couple of things I should mention.  My crank has a tube/sleeve captive on the "hand" end and that tube/sleeve overhangs the rod by about 1/4".  I can't tell from your pic if your crank has the tube/sleeve.  Also center-to-center for the "swing" is a little hard to measure since the two bends in my crank are not 90 degree bends.  Here's a pic of what I mean.

[Pete in PA]

4 hours ago, 36 D2 Coupe said:

OK here's what I have> -Brass tube removed from my D2 engine - 22 3/4"

                                           Steel tubes on hand                                       23 1/4"

 

The positioning of the water outlets is slightly  different on the brass tube than on the steel tube. If you can measure the spacing on the outlets, I can confirm whether the extra tubes I have will work for you.  1/2" doesn't seem like a lot but ???  If you have lost a little bit off the end in the removal process, the ones I have may be what you need.  The measurements should help.

   

I'm not interested in a brass tube but that seems to be irrelevant since 22 3/4" is too short anyway.

Measuring from the *back* or closed end of the tube, the openings *start* at the following points:
5/8", 1 3/4", 7", 9 1/4", 14 1/4", 16 3/4", and 22"

All the openings are 1" long except the first one which is 1/2" long

Any pics of the steel tube you have?

[36 D2 Coupe]

Hi Pete - My tube matches your measurements

 

sent you a PM

[Pete in PA]

Jim, got it.  I'll send you a PM later today with contact info.  

[Pete in PA]

Spent a few hours messing with the D2 yesterday afternoon.  The water pump and coolant tube are out, the thermostat housing is off, and we can see lots of crusty rust inside the water jackets.
I managed to break loose the block drain fitting and then we used a drain cleaning tube connected to a garden hose to blast a stream of water inside the engine.  We also back flushed from the block drain opening.  We certainly improved the situation but clearly chemical warfare is in order to attack and then neutralize the rust in there.  I've used oxalic acid in the past but was going to use evaporust this time.  Problem is I have the oxalic acid on hand but will have to buy and then wait for the evaporust.  Any opinions on which to use or a technique?

In other news I ordered a pair of NORS Doan brand rear engine mounts off ebay.  This was definitely an impulse buy I made after looking at depressing pics of the soft, deteriorated, oozing mounts that are in my car now.  The ebay purchase may hold up quite well or it may not.  Time will tell.

While flushing the block I was staring at the the front mount thinking that I should replace that now and planned to come home from the garage and look on ebay for the part.  Before leaving the garage, though, I poked through some boxes of parts that came with the car and <surprise> found a NORS Doan brand front mount!   Sadly a quick look revealed that it was not the correct mount for my car.  I can't find a listing for this part online either.  Anyone think it looks familiar?  Center-to-center spacing for upper and lower studs is 4.5"

 

Edited March 27, 2020 by Pete in PA (see edit history)

[jpage]

That's a '37 and later mount. The '36's have the 2 top bolts offset .Bernbaum should have new ones or at least maybe a good used one. Steele Rubber, I think, has a revulcanizing service but they are quite expensive. If I were you, and from experience, I would pop the side block freeze plugs and clean out the jacket. It gets mighty packed up in there!

[Pete in PA]

Thanks for the lead, Jim.  A web search, however, indicates that the mount I have fits 38-56 flathead six cylinder engines.  Could you be off a year?  I thought maybe the mount I have was wrongly boxed but this morning a closer look at it revealed that "2018-AHN" is embossed int the rubber at each end in the gap between the upper and lower parts.  The box lid, as shown above, says only "2018" and that's interesting because the Anchor/Doan part number for the 36 Dodge is "2018".  So it's easy to see how the PO of my car ended up with the wrong part.  I guess I'll list it on ebay unless someone on the forum expresses an interest in it.  $50 plus shipping.  Anyone???

And I am sure that the block is loaded with crud.  Or at least *was* loaded with crud.  I say that because it's obvious that several of the core plugs have been replaced already.  I sure hope that whoever did that back in teh 1970s had the sense to rod things out as well as they could.  I'm hesitant to go deeper into disassembly territory than I already am.  Some days I feel like I'm too far in already for what I wanted to do with this car.  I have too many projects!

Edited March 31, 2020 by Pete in PA (see edit history)

[jpage]

You'll never stop finding little projects on that car! But it will be a nice car when you get done! I just got new door sill plates made bey Don Kuehn in NJ. The first set didn't fit well but he was very good about me returning them along with some originals and I had a new set in 2 weeks. They are really nice and fit pretty well. Also got the material for the interior and had some small interior parts made. Still looking for headliner material!  Got the inside of the body painted and hope to get the underbody shot and remounted to the chassis this summer. a little more work on the front fenders and I think it'll be ready for paint! I've got more ambition than money though! I think this might be the last car I restore!

[Pete in PA]

The real problem is that my D2 is just one of about 5 projects currently in progress.  I have a 94 Camaro that i rebuilt for my daughter almost 10 years ago, she used it for years, but then moved to Portland, OR.  The Camaro needs a few things dealt with before I advertise it for sale and the weather has been awful for doing outside work.  I have a 1988 Mercedes 300E that I bought at a very good price because it was in great condition except for a bad transmission.  I figured I could flip it quickly with parts I had on hand but after replacing the transmission with a used part I discovered that the HVAC box is damaged and I'll have to pull the steering column, console, and dash to replace that.  Again, I'll be working outside and the weather is not cooperating.  I want that car to go away as well but it'll be another month or two before it's ready for sale.  I could go on but you get the idea.  Finding time for the D2 has been challenging.

In an earlier post I mentioned marks on the crank handle but I forgot to post a pic of that lettering.  Here's a pic.  What do you see?  Also I measured the cross hole at the engine end of the crank and it's 7/32" in diameter.  Now to see if I can find a roll pin of that diameter in the appropriate length.

[Pete in PA]

I received the D2 parts I bought from Mike Sisco in Georgia following a lead I got on this forum.  I got an NOS fuel tank and a used radiator from him.

The fuel tank was a real find as far as I'm concerned.  A new, never used fuel tank for a 1936 anything is gonna be hard to find but I got lucky.  The tank was obviously never installed/used and never had the drain plug or suction tube elbow fitting installed.  There's a bit of shelf wear but, hey, who's complaining.

While the new tank seemed to be identical to my old tank at a glance, putting the two side-by-side revealed some differences.  Dimensions are the same but minor details of the manufacturing process changed as follows:

1) my old tank wasn't painted but the new one is painted black

2) the rolled seams (where the sides of the tank meet the body) are much larger on the old tank than on the new one.  Now my car was built in late 1935 and has already shown that it has some 1935 parts (including a cylinder head marked DU) so maybe my old tank was a 1935 part.
3) the end panels of the tanks are shaped a little bit differently.  On the old tank each end panel is just a big oval dome.  On the new tank that oval dome flattens out at the outer edges.

4) my old tank clearly has a cast iron filler tube "tower" while the tower on the new tank is made of formed and brazed steel.  You can see where seams exist and that they were ground flat.

Looks like I'll need a new sending unit.  My original and the 1936 Plymouth part I got with my car are both dead.  No change in resistance as I move the float.  Anyone know what that resistance should be?  I see brand new sending units on ebay for $99.  Ouch.

The sending unit attaches to the tank with five 8-32 screws.  I was pleased to see that my old screws with their lead sealing washers are in great shape and can be reused.

I'll transfer the brass elbow for the fuel line from the old tank to the new.  It's screwed in pretty tight and I hope I don't damage it removing or installing it.

Who can show me what the tank drain plug looks like?  My old tank had a brass plug screwed flush  into the tank fitting and that plug had a slot cut in it.  I'm betting that the square head of that plug got scraped right off over the years.  Sound correct?  I see that Home Depot sells a brass 1/8" NPT plug for about $2 so I guess I'll get one of those.

 

[jpage]

Tank looks good. It may have been an aftermarket replacement made many years ago. If it fits, no problem! The drain plug is just a brass square hd. pipe plug.I got my fuel sending unit from KM Lifestyles, they make Atwater Kent units.

[Pete in PA]

My wife is away taking car of her elderly mother and I'm keeping our two teenagers in line so not much D2 time is available.  I did, however, visit briefly this past weekend and fiddles a bit.  The block passages are now filled with vinegar which I've used extensively to clean metal like plumbing valves.  We'll see how it does on rusty cast iron.  I can always use harsher methods of necessary.

I compared the coolant pumps I have on hand.  I have the brand new part I got from mobileparts last week, I have the leaking 1980ish pump that I removed from my engine a few weeks ago, I have one loose pump that came with the car and that's probably from the P1 that the PO stripped.  Also, there's the pump that the PO removed from my car's engine 1980ish.  This pump is most interesting to me because I believe that it's teh pump that was originally installed on my  car's engine.  An 85 year old pump!  It has the 6 digit part number cast into it as well as the CPPD logo stamped into the bolt heads on the back.  Neat!

[jpage]

I tried rebuilding my original but didn't trust it so I bought a new pump from NAPA for $65.00. Same basic unit but without the grease fitting and the body is a little thicker in places too. i made some mods that made it look more like the original and now I can be sure that it works.

[Pete in PA]

Yesterday I received a long-awaited parcel from Jim (36 D2 coupe) in Canada.  It contained a couple of key parts that I need to advance my D2 project.  Jim had extras that he didn't need and offered them to me for a good price so we completed some international commerce.

Item 1 is a coolant distribution tube.  Can you tell which one is my original and which one I got from Jim?

[Pete in PA]

Item 2 is a front engine mount.  NOS Mopar no less!  Installing it will be a project for this coming weekend.  I figured that now is the right time for replacing it and you can see why.

BTW the old coolant pump temporarily installed over strips of duct tape to allow filling the engine coolant passages to the brim with vinegar.

[jpage]

Looks like you really can do with a new mount! Mine was in fair shape do I decided to reuse it. Over the years I discovered some engine sag. May have to shim it a bit. Can no longer get the socket in place to turn the engine over. you'll have that car on the road in no time!

 

[Taylormade]

You think yours was bad - check out the front mount from my 32 dodge Brothers DL.  And redone by Then and Now Automotive.

 

 

[Pete in PA]

Now wait just a minute...  I never claimed that my front mount was in terrible condition!  I only said that I noticed it was deteriorated and replacing it while the radiator and water pump were removed seemed to make sense.  There is no doubt that should there be a "Worst Motor Mount" contest you would be a contender and I wouldn't even be in the running.  LOL

In other D2 news I managed to get tot eh garage for a little while yesterday.  I installed a drain plug in the new gas tank but I'm not happy with it.  It's a 1/8" pipe plug from Home Depot and does the job but it doesn't thread nearly far enough into the tank bung.  If you look at the distance the flared bung fitting protrudes from the tank and then add the length of the pipe plug I bet there's half an inch sticking out (down).  That's a prime candidate for damage from grounding out on something.  I'll have to look for another plug but this will work short term.

Also drained the cleaning vinegar from the cooling system.  Wow.  You should have seen teh color of the stuff that came out of the block drain port.  The vinegar went in almost clear and came out almost black.  When I drew off the liquid in the drain pan I bet there was a full cup of grityt rust particles.  Kind of like brown and black sand.  There was a LOT of it.  I then flushed the block 3 or 4 times with clean water getting more of the grit out of the block.  There was less and less each time and by the time I decided to snap a pic output was pretty low but this still gives you an idea of what was in there.  (And I'm sure there's plenty left.)  I decided to make another run to the grocery store for another 2 gallons of cleaning vinegar because I didn't want to leave 1) the system empty or 2) fill it with water until this weekend when I do a proper flush with pressurized water and refill with coolant.  I'll decide whether more drastic cleaning measure are necessary after seeing what the pressure flush gets out.

[Pete in PA]

 

As I look down the road to what comes next the rusty floor of my old Dodge looms large.  I heard about the Plymouth Doctor years ago but reports about poor communication and long, long delays in obtaining parts concerned me.  Today I felt like picking up the phone and calling so I did exactly that.  Wayne picked up the phone on the 3rd ring and we had a very nice conversation about D2 floor pan pieces.  I was quite shocked when I asked about lead times for producing the parts and he said 2 weeks.  What?  Did i hear correctly?  I was expecting to hear that I'd wait for an estimated 6 months and then wait even longer before I saw anything.  Any opinions on this revelation?  I am greatly cheered by Wayne's estimate but wondering whether it would be realized.  

[36 D2 Coupe]

I got some patch panels and tail pan pieces for the coupe from Wayne maybe 10 years ago (still not installed). I can't recall the turnaround time now but if it had been unusually long, it might have stuck in my memory. Wayne was good to deal with.

Now that you mention floor pan pieces, I should probably call Wayne - the driver's side floor under the seat lets in too much light

[jpage]

I bought my tailpan from him. It was nicely made with heavy material but did not fit well for the price, but it was a good start. I had to do a lot of cutting and rewelding but I did get it to fit. Not sure what the floor pans would look like. Depending on what you need, it might be easier to make them yourself or have them fabricated at a local shop. I have a fairly good toeboard that just needs 1 new pedal stud. I think I also have a fair floorboard. I've found several places that sell these parts and I assume that they may all come from the same manufacturer. From what I can glean, they are all hand formed and all of them need some work to fit. I didn't want to take a chance on the rockers since they cost so much, so I made my own. I think that Wayne will let you return them if you are not satisfied but I would check. Good hunting Pete

[36 D2 Coupe]

Helpful comments jpage.. I can't verify the fit as we haven't started on the body. I bought the replacement parts in order to be sure to have them whether the supplier stayed in business or not. Even if some adjustment is needed, I think we're ahead of the game. Since I only need a small patch in the floor ahead of the battery box opening, I'm going to try my hand at fabrication. That'll probably expose a significant lack of skill but should keep me busy for a while.

[jpage]

The drivers side always is worse. I guess from water drug in from rain and snow as the carpets and undermats weren't waterproof like today's cars. That section isn't too difficult if you can get someone to put in the strength ribs. I think most all of the floorpan sections come as complete units per side.

[Pete in PA]

The whole floor pan (both left and right sides) on my car is a mess.  Either from a leaking windshield seal, cowl vent seal, or roof insert gasket.  That last possibility didn't occur to me until fairly recently but something up there doesn't look quite right.  Maybe the headliner staining is from condensation alone.  Time will tell as this project progresses.

I told Wayne that I needed both sides of the floor pan but that the driveshaft tunnel seemed to be okay.  I later received his price sheet via email and see that he lists "main cabin floor, right or left side"  so I guess that's what I'll get.  I don't know how the floor pan attaches to the body at the outer edges (under the doors).  Jim Page, you should have a very good understanding of this area, right?  I know it'll be a big job to repair that floor but I guess it could be big or really BIG.  Like is the body mounted to the frame via bolts through the floor pan.  Ugh, I hope not.

I need to take another look at the pics I shot of your car body, Jim, and see if they shed some light on the issue.

What I really need to do is remove the front seat and the floor covering to see what I'm dealing with.  That'll be interesting in itself because the lower part of the seat tracks and the mounting bolts to the floor are severely rusted.  No way can I put a wrench on those bolts and even if I could they wouldn't turn.

Weather here is nice today so I'm hoping to get a few hours of D2 time.

[Pete in PA]

Taking another look at pics of jpage's parts car gives this hint of what I'll be dealing with.  Looks daunting to me.

[Taylormade]

Just think it through before you start cutting.  I assume you'll wait until you get your new floors.  That should give you a better idea of what needs to be cut out.  You'll get through it.  If I had a dollar for every new problem i had to deal with on my car, I'd be a rich man. I guess I'm lucky, my Dodge Brothers 32DL has wood floors that bolt in.

[jpage]

The outer edges of the floors extend under the sill and are welded underneath. It would be almost impossible to access the underneath sill with the body on the frame. If the floor isn't eaten away at the sill, it's possible to cut the old floor about an inch or so inside the body to create a ledge to lay the new panel on and then plug weld it to the old floor. I only had to install a few patches to fix mine. Yes, the body is mounted through those holes in the floor pan and in from the sides at the "B" pillar and the rear at the fender well. Most of the interior body bolts are 5/16 in. rd. hd. machine screws or bolts and carriage bolts along the outer frame area.. There are also several studs with nuts. As you can see from the above photo, there is a lip that extends along the length of the tunnel that the floor panel rests on. The car in the above photo was badly rusted as it sat outside for a long time. How are the rocker panels on your car? The rockers consist of an inner rocker and an outer rocker.  One thing I was told by another owner was that the floor pans did not have that rise at the rear outer corners. You can see the rise in the photo where the frame upsweep begins. If you need any photos, I can get some from underneath and in the car.I agree with Taylormade, wait until you get the parts so you know what you're dealing with.

Edited April 25, 2020 by jpage (see edit history)

[Pete in PA]

Yes, I'll definitely wait until, at the very least, I have removed the seats and floor covering.  Then I'll have a much better idea of what I'm up against.  I should probably order both sides from Wayne sooner than later so I'll have them on hand when I need them.  I seriously doubt that will be this year though.  By the time I get the whole front of the car back together correctly, have functioning fuel and cooling systems, and maybe even have the brakes working the summer will be over.  I'd like to at least go for a few drives the car before pulling the body for floor repair.

[Taylormade]

Buy them now.  Just ask all the folks who put off ordering their interior fabric and kits from LeBaron-Bonney.  If something is available and you need it - buy it before it’s too late.

[Pete in PA]

Yeah that occurred to me.  But with this COVI-19D thing raging my hours have been cut way, way back and my wife got laid off.  This been the first time in either of our lives that we've been un/underemployed.  I usually adhere to the "It's easier to get forgiveness than it is to get permission" philosophy but I really think I'd be pushing my luck doing that right now.  LOL

[Pete in PA]

Just for fun here's a pic my dad sent to me today.  I'm standing in the car and my grandmother is holding my brother.  The car is a 56 Dodge Coronet.  Best guess on year?  1965

Edited April 28, 2020 by Pete in PA (see edit history)